Originally Posted by Tithesmeister (Post 1607082)

The living, unbelievers, especially the Jews?

Originally Posted by Nicodemus1968 (Post 1607074)

The rich man had 5 brethren, who do they represent?

Originally Posted by Nicodemus1968 (Post 1607074)

The rich man had 5 brethren, who do they represent?

Originally Posted by coksiw (Post 1607068)

"Real to life" means that the stories in the parable are obviously fiction but the things, persons, and places inside the story are elements extracted from real life: e.g., you don't see Jesus using animals talking in parables, because that's not a thing in real life, you don't see Jesus using trees dancing, or people flying to stars, for the same reason.
Jesus's stories never had things, persons or places, or theological truths that were not from real life. If Hades had not been a real life element, with a separation between the just and the unjust, then it would have not been in Jesus's story.




You are right, figures of speech are there with a purpose to communicate a thought via comparison in most cases. You can see it as a metaphor, however, it wouldn't still be what it is really happening. The verse I posted above is clearly an euphemism. Lazarus wasn't sleeping, and Jesus didn't wake up Lazarus, he brought back to life with a command.

Theology is not just the mere study of the Scripture, but the discipline of extracting truths, through studying, from the Scriptures.
What I refer as theological concepts is theologically loaded or profound terms in their context, e.g. grace, salvation, etc... I don't see how "sleep" it is figuratively referring to being dead is a theologically profound term. Jesus himself had to clarify to the disciples that Lazarus was dead without extra comments regarding his "truly sleeping" condition.



Revelation is a book full of elements that are not real to life mixed concepts extracted from real life. Since souls are elements from real life, and also pretty much everything in that passage is, it is sensible to infer that the event described is the imaginary thing, not the elements part of it.

The example of Abel is not equal to the passage in Rev, and not a good comparison. The blood crying out is definitely a personification which is not real to life.


According to your statement, we can imply that if you kill the body, then there is no "whole human entity" anymore, and therefore, there is no "soul". Jesus is separating them as something that remains after death.

You are right, nobody is destroyed in Hades. The rich man was being tormented, not eternally destroyed.




Moving the comma would make the phrase a strange phrase as it would make "today" a totally irrelevant word in the conversation. Jesus had already said "Assuredly" (or verily verily). It could be argued that it is to emphasize, however, he didn't use "I say to you today" in any other moment to put emphasis, so it wasn't his style of conversation to achieve that. In the closest phrase in another passage, "today" actually carries a significant meaning in the sentence:
Jesus said to him, "Assuredly, I say to you that today, even this night

Leaving the comma where it is, does make the word "today" have a much better sense in the context. It is in response to the wish of the thief to "be remembered" in the future when Jesus came in his kingdom, which Jesus told the good news that won't be a future event for him to be with Jesus, but that "today" the thief will be counted with the righteous.

Therefore, leaving the comma where it is, makes more sense in the context.

Jesus and the thief went to the same place where the rest of the Old Testament saints went: to Hades, but the side where the just was. But Jesus didn't stay there because there was no an unpaid accusation against Him preventing him from reaching heaven, instead He took the righteous saints of the OT up to "paradise" because their sins were paid at the cross. They were justified by believing in a future Savior.




Paradise is the place of rest for the justified in Christ while they await the resurrection. Since it is where Jesus is, we can infer it is in heaven. Paul also says it is in the third heaven.

Philippians 1:23 (NKJV) 23 For I am hard-pressed between the two, having a desire to depart and be with Christ, which is far better.

Luke 23:43 (NKJV) 43 And Jesus said to him, "Assuredly, I say to you, today you will be with Me in Paradise."

2 Corinthians 12:2-4 (NKJV) 2 I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago—whether in the body I do not know, or whether out of the body I do not know, God knows—such a one was caught up to the third heaven. 3 And I know such a man—whether in the body or out of the body I do not know, God knows— 4 how he was caught up into Paradise and heard inexpressible words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.

The context of the Psalm is the LORD putting the Lord in place of authority ruling over the land of the living and the dominion of Satan.

David is not in heaven crowned as king, nor with a living body to rule over the land of the living. It would be odd to think that a soul without a body is ruling over the land of the living. The David ascending to heaven is definitely referring to the possibility of David as a living human ascending to heaven, which is what Jesus did.

Originally Posted by Sister Alvear (Post 1607084)

I believe both heaven and hell are everlasting....

Originally Posted by Esaias (Post 1607093)

So you are saying Jesus and thief went to heaven the same day He died? And that dead people separated from their bodies still have laps, tongues, fingers, mouths? And that the unjust were also there? And both groups could communicate with each other? And that the unjust are punished before being judged? And that in Revelation there are some saints under a literal altar crying out for vengeance?

Please explain.

Originally Posted by Sister Alvear (Post 1607096)

maybe I should say eternal punishment or eternal life..Matthew 25:46 ESV
And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”

Revelation 20:10 ESV
And the devil who had deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulfur where the beast and the false prophet were, and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

Matthew 25:41 ESV
“Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.

Revelation 14:11 ESV
And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever, and they have no rest, day or night, these worshipers of the beast and its image, and whoever receives the mark of its name.”

Originally Posted by coksiw (Post 1607097)

So you are saying Jesus and thief went to heaven the same day He died? Yes, that's my inference from the evidences in the Scriptures

And that dead people separated from their bodies still have laps, tongues, fingers, mouths? That's what it seems like. I haven't died to testify about the details, though, but that's what I interpret.

And that the unjust were also there? And both groups could communicate with each other? Yes, the adobe of the dead (Hades) had a separation between the just and the unjust but could still allow for communication. That may seem crazy and hard to explain the details but that's what the text says. That's what the story from Jesus describes.

And that the unjust are punished before being judged? They are being tormented in the prison. I don't know the source of the torment, since the Bible doesn't state it.


And that in Revelation there are some saints under a literal altar crying out for vengeance? Let me explain this. What I said is that the described event is the fictitious thing, carrying a symbolic meaning, but the elements of the event are drawn from elements in real life.

Pretty much everything in this text are elements drawn from real life, the story itself is not, as it is the symbolic thing:

Revelation 6:9-11 (NKJV) 9 When He opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the testimony which they held. 10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, "How long, O Lord, holy and true, until You judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell on the earth?" 11 Then a white robe was given to each of them; and it was said to them that they should rest a little while longer, until both the number of their fellow servants and their brethren, who would be killed as they were, was completed.

It is the same as parables: made up stories that are real to life, with elements (the entities and the things they do, and the places) that are from real life. If you incorporate elements from fantasy then it is no longer a parable: e.g. animals talking, humans with winds flying to stars, etc...
The Bible has those two, but in the case of Revelation, not everything is fantastic creatures and actions. Specifically in that text, "souls" are not drawn from fantasy, as they appear in many other parts of the Bible in genres that speak in clear terms to mean something that it is real to life.
Does that make sense?

I hope I'm not frustrating you :). Just having an interesting conversation. I actually enjoyed reading your post as you have very good points and also good questions. For example, "why does God need to resurrect the unjust to judge them then?", and also the overall point that the resurrection of the just and the unjust is the key doctrine regarding afterlife, which is the opposite of what you see today in conversations and preachings.

Originally Posted by CC1 (Post 1607113)

My view on hell? Hell bad. Heaven good!

Originally Posted by 1 God (Post 1607109)

Also, what does the drop of water on the rich man’s tongue represent?

Originally Posted by Sister Alvear (Post 1607096)

maybe I should say eternal punishment or eternal life..Matthew 25:46 ESV
And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”

Revelation 20:10 ESV
And the devil who had deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulfur where the beast and the false prophet were, and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

Matthew 25:41 ESV
“Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.

Revelation 14:11 ESV
And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever, and they have no rest, day or night, these worshipers of the beast and its image, and whoever receives the mark of its name.”

Originally Posted by Esaias (Post 1607104)

Yes, the punishment (which is "to perish") will be everlasting. The gift of God is eternal life, and the wages of sin is death. Only the saints will live forever.

Originally Posted by shag (Post 1607118)

How can punishment be an eternal thing, if someone perishes (seises to exist)?
The “action” of punishment itself, is what is taking place forever in Matt. 25:46….
so to perish would be to stop eternal punishment….no?

Seems kinda conflicting.
I do have quite a bit of catching up to read on this thread, and look forward to doing so….I may have got the cart before the horse by not doing so before posting this comment..

Originally Posted by diakonos (Post 1607119)

The result is eternal. There’s no return.

Originally Posted by shag (Post 1607122)

What I’m having trouble with though is, it says the punishment itself last forever, not the result of the punishment lasting forever.

Maybe I’m just too thick headed…



This being nonstop-not the result being nonstop
https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/punishment


And if the result is eternal, there is no return…wouldn’t he have called it everlasting perishing, or ever lasting result of punishment, instead of everlasting punishment?

Not trying to be argumentative, just trying to get my mind around this

Originally Posted by Esaias (Post 1607105)

No frustration! Just trying to understand.

In the parable of the rich man and Lazarus, the event is a fictitious thing, but the elements are true to life (heat, thirst, comfort, water, fire, chasms, etc). :)

Originally Posted by votivesoul (Post 1607140)

The question then is, does the use of hades in the Holy Scriptures of the New Covenant correspond to the same Greek mythological and cosmological term, the way tartaroo does with Tartarus.

See: https://www.greekmythology.com/Olymp...des/hades.html

Originally Posted by 1 God (Post 1607148)

Overall in this thread, it seems we should dismiss Jesus’ discussion about the rich man in hell as exaggerated and speaking of other fascinating ideas. The JWs must have got annihilation right.

Originally Posted by 1 God (Post 1607148)

Overall in this thread, it seems we should dismiss Jesus’ discussion about the rich man in hell as exaggerated and speaking of other fascinating ideas. The JWs must have got annihilation right.

Originally Posted by 1 God (Post 1607148)

Overall in this thread, it seems we should dismiss Jesus’ discussion about the rich man in hell as exaggerated and speaking of other fascinating ideas. The JWs must have got annihilation right.

Originally Posted by diakonos (Post 1607146)

I read this book when I was 18. Ruminated on the thought for years.

https://www.religion-online.org/book...n-of-the-dead/

Originally Posted by Amanah (Post 1607147)

Was there ever, is there now anyone practicing pure religion untainted with any trace of paganism or false doctrine? The people in the bible never seemed to get it right from the garden, to the flood, through the exodus, the utter corruption and downward spiral of the judges, the monarchy, the Babylonian exile, the hellenization and corruption of the second temple period. The division of the early church between judaizers and hellenizers. The paganism of Christianity that continues to this day.

The long suffering and mercy of God is past understanding. We can come into His presence and He meets with us, leads, guides, and directs us as flawed as we are.

Originally Posted by coksiw (Post 1607152)

I think soul-sleep believers have good points. I also believe there are misunderstandings of the Scriptures in their teaching. I also believe there are misunderstanding in non-soul-sleep believers, which is my camp. I believe that in part the misunderstanding in non-soul-sleep believers is the result of mistranslations, i.e. "hell" for two Greek words that mean theologically different things, and as result, they can't see in plain reading the differences. The famous preaching "your first night in hell" is an example of such misunderstanding, or also comments or even songs saying that when you die, you will go to heaven and walk on streets of gold, and see again your deceased relatives and church friends, and such, promises which are instead associated with the resurrection, not with the intermediate state before resurrection.

What we know about our intermediate state is that we will be with Christ, and it is a place of rest.

JW are not the only ones believing in soul-sleep, Seventh-day Adventist also.

I don't see it as a salvation issue to be honest.

Originally Posted by 1 God (Post 1607161)

Doubting Jesus’ literal words about eternal hell and the rich man in it seeking a drop of water to cool his tongue is a salvation issue. Obviously, the dead, rich mans soul was not asleep. We are not given the luxury to second guess what Jesus meant in the passage.

Originally Posted by 1 God (Post 1607161)

Doubting Jesus’ literal words about eternal hell and the rich man in it seeking a drop of water to cool his tongue is a salvation issue. Obviously, the dead, rich mans soul was not asleep. We are not given the luxury to second guess what Jesus meant in the passage.

Originally Posted by Evang.Benincasa (Post 1607169)

The rich man and Lazarus is a story about Israel, Abrahamic promise, the untouchable non Judean, and the soteriological power of understanding Moses.
Heaven isn't a reclining couch, where we can watch people suffer in torments.

Originally Posted by Esaias (Post 1607165)

Why do you doubt God's literal words in the Psalms and Ecclesiastes? You don't have that luxury.

Originally Posted by Evang.Benincasa (Post 1607169)

The rich man and Lazarus is a story about Israel, Abrahamic promise, the untouchable non Judean, and the soteriological power of understanding Moses.
Heaven isn't a reclining couch, where we can watch people suffer in torments.

Originally Posted by coksiw (Post 1607171)

It is pretty obvious from the text that the OT saints had a simple understanding of death, our at least the angle was very focused on life on earth. Soul in their language had multiple meaning: self, life, emotions, person, desire, etc... depending on the context about how people used it. The meaning of a soul as a human spirit remaining conscious in a place after death is mainly an NT understanding.