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Re: New Doctrine Emerges: NOT Forgiven at Repentan

Quote:

Originally Posted by HaShaliach (Post 985174)

A question:

All of the above reflects the events prior to Calvary, and only to the Jews. Therefore, how is that the seventy already had their names recorded in heaven even prior to the giving of the Holy Ghost? Luke 10:18-24.

As disciple of the Rabbi Jesus, I can say with certainty that they were all baptized in the name of Yeshua Natzeret (Jesus of Nazareth) prior to going out on their mission, as that baptism tradition (ritual) was already a common Hebraic custom between a Master and his Student.

Is there a "formula" for mikveh? I was married into a Jewish family. I remember a prayer, but not a formula.

If a person is emmersed in water while calling on Jesus for salvation, that is biblical. The notion of a preacher saying a "formula" over the convert is a later adaptation. Biblically speaking, there isn't a "formula" for water baptism. Paul was told to call on the name of the Lord while being baptized... Ananias didn't admonish Paul to allow him to speak words over him. Point being... a thousand "preachers" could be screaming "In the name of Larry, Moe, and Curly!...", but if the believer is calling out to Jesus... it's effectual.

Re: New Doctrine Emerges: NOT Forgiven at Repentan

On the flip side... a thousand Oneness preachers could be screaming, "In the name of Jesus Christ!...", and if the convert isn't calling upon the name of the Lord, trusting in the words of a thousand men.... his sins are NOT remitted.

Re: New Doctrine Emerges: NOT Forgiven at Repentan

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aquila (Post 985221)

Is there a "formula" for mikveh? I was married into a Jewish family. I remember a prayer, but not a formula.

If a person is immersed in water while calling on Jesus for salvation, that is biblical. The notion of a preacher saying a "formula" over the convert is a later adaptation. Biblically speaking, there isn't a "formula" for water baptism. Paul was told to call on the name of the Lord while being baptized... Ananias didn't admonish Paul to allow him to speak words over him. Point being... a thousand "preachers" could be screaming "In the name of Larry, Moe, and Curly!...", but if the believer is calling out to Jesus... it's effectual.

You answered your own question! LOLOL

No, there is no formula, no preacher hold your hand or head , nor is there anyone to speak some special words over you. Here is a quick overview (introduction) to the apostolic baptism method.

You have the individual undergoing the Tevilah (ceremonial washing/bath, baptism) ritual by simply going in a mikvah pool (baptismal) pool, and the required witness, to ensure that the individual makes a complete immersion. Also, you are correct in that it is the individual who makes his/her declaration of allegiance to the Rabbi, or in the case of a conversion, to the religion of the Jews. The witness has nothing to say, except, "Welcome into the foul."

If the Tevilah takes place in a river, lake, ocean/sea, the witness may accompany the individual out away from the shore, in order to observe that all requirements of the Tevilah are met.

I forget how many Mikvah (baptismal pools) found so far outside the Temple, but a great number. During the three required visits to Jerusalem by all Jewish males for the high festivals of God, they all had to under go the Tevilah ritual, and we are talking about a couple of million at the very least on each occasion. Using these Temple Mikvah, allows us to see how 3,000 men could be baptized in a single afternoon.

It would take approximately one minute to perform one baptism. They walk into the pool, dunk down, and walk out, calling upon the name of Jesus. I think they have uncovered or identified about 20 such pools. At that rate, 3,000 people could be baptized in about 2.5 hours. With only ten pools, it would take about five hours to do all 3,000.

Of course, anyone being baptized in a tub, water trough, or a modern baptistery would not be considered properly baptized according to the apostolic method. First because these containers don't hold enough water (200 plus gallons) and second, because they are not fed from free flowing, natural water sources. The Temple Mikvah were spring fed or by water diverted from the Temple aqueduct.

That is the basics of how John the Baptist and the disciples of Christ performed the baptismal ceremony and how observant and Messianic Jews of today still perform this ritual (spiritual) cleansing.

-----------------------

When one is baptized into the name of a Rabbi or into the Hebrew faith, one calls upon the name of the Rabbi (a religious school, or Yeshiva, or the identifying term to signify the God of Israel for converts). The 'calling upon the name of' also signify the spiritual authority by which the baptism is being conducted. This is why Paul was quite content to have baptized (officially witnessed) only a couple of folks, so no one could accuse him of baptizing in his own name, i.e., of, by, or in his own authority. When a person intones, "I baptize you in the name of Jesus Christ", it is the minister who is doing the baptizing, and it is under his own authority that he is doing so, not Christ's.

When a person calls upon the name of their new Rabbi, they are making a public delectation that they have accepted the yoke (doctrines) of the Rabbi or Yeshiva (religious school), and here after they are to be identified with that group. There is also a spiritual element to the ritual that most experience but the elements of which are seldom taught, so most who go through the process seldom understand what it is that are actually doing, or why. Being baptized because the Bible say so, is neither instruction, knowledge, nor understanding.

Who qualifies as an acceptable witness? Any Talmid (disciple, student) of the Rabbi or Yeshiva in good standing may act as an official witness. For conversion to Judaism, it requires a priest of the Temple, or today, a Synagogue or Yeshiva leader. As most baptism were conducted in the nude, a selected elder women would witness the Tevilah of the women and report its successful observance to the 'witnessing' Temple priest.

Question: Can a 'non-ministerial' believer (not a member of the five-fold ministries, or a licensed minister by some man-formed organization) be an official witness of a baptism (conversion into Christ's body, the church)? Answer: Because all accepted disciples of the Rabbi Yeshua are, by definition, members in good standing of God's own royal priesthood,they are personally called, identified, and authorized (ordained) by God to be such a witness.

Hopes this overview helps every one.

:grampa

Re: New Doctrine Emerges: NOT Forgiven at Repentan

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aquila (Post 985223)

You got it!

Re: New Doctrine Emerges: NOT Forgiven at Repentan

A thread (another one) addressing baptism might be in order. No need to hi-jack this one. But, given the above outline, does anyone now understand why (1) Jesus needed to be baptized by John, and (2) why John wanted (needed) to be baptized by Jesus?

Hint: Biblical baptism (Tevilah) has its foundation in the Israeli wilderness experience.

Re: New Doctrine Emerges: NOT Forgiven at Repentan

HaShaliach, absolutely facinating!

Re: New Doctrine Emerges: NOT Forgiven at Repentan

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sam (Post 685342)

Just accept the fact that baptism does not "really" cleanse from sin. It's only a symbolic cleansing. Cornelius and his friends received the Holy Ghost Baptism before they were baptized in water. Peter had preached that "whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins" (Acts 10:43). Evidently those Gentiles believed and received remission/forgiveness of sins, and while they rejoiced in their new experience of salvation, they received the Holy Ghost Baptism and began to speak with tongues. All of this happened while Peter was preaching. Peter later commanded them to be baptized "in the name of the Lord" (Acts 10:48). When Peter later described what happened at the house of Cornelius, he said that God had granted the Gentiles "repentance unto life" (Acts 10:18). Then about 11 years later at the Jerusalem Council, Peter said that God had purified "their hearts by faith" (Acts 15:9). In other words, as those Gentiles heard the Word, they believed, were saved/born again and cleansed from sin and then received the Holy Ghost Baptism --all of this before water baptism.

Thousands of people have received the Holy Ghost Baptism before being baptized in water and some have never been baptized in water. It sounds to me that God is not as concerned about "proper" water baptism as we are.

:thumbsup

Agreed, and it does not secondarily as some claim diminish the imperative to teach water baptism (or communion, loving one's neighbor and the Lord God)!

Re: New Doctrine Emerges: NOT Forgiven at Repentan

Ok, I got impatient, skipped to the end; and never found out if those sheep up there, who unknowingly gave the least of them a glass of water, are one, two, or three steppers? ( :
ty

ps, the goats I got figured.

Re: New Doctrine Emerges: NOT Forgiven at Repentan

Wow. That is a lot of work for one word! You could play around with various interpretations there all day (and surely find some insight). ty, I'll just warm up "biblecc"...