Re: The Feminization of the Modern Church
 

Listened to the long version again - "Marching Orders for a Backslidden Church," from the 2010 "Shepherd's Conference."

First, again, there was no mention of women ministers. I watched the clip and made the initial post before actually listening to the whole message yesterday. But after Sis. Alvear's posts, and after reading your post, I listened to it again just now to make sure I wasn't missing anything.

I even wrote some notes during the message from each of his 4 points of the text he used.

Text: 1 Corinthians 16:13 "Be watchful, stand firm in the faith, act like men, be strong."

1. Be watchful:
Be alert. Stay awake. Prayerful watchfulness. Stay on guard. Strengthen what remains and is about to die. Be watchful over words, action, way of life, over one another. Be on guard against false teachers. Against the world. above all watch unto prayer and watch for the Lord's return.

2. Stand firm in the faith:
Stand firm in THE faith. There is only one, true faith. If your message changes every time a new fad or bestselling book comes along ... get out of the ministry, PLEASE!

3. Act like men:
Be men, be manly. (This is where the video clip is from)

4. Be strong:
If you're going to enter the battle, you will need to learn to be strong. If you're faithful, you will be persecuted. Need strength to stand in battle. Paul not speaking of physical strength - but strength of character. Integrity, combined with unflagging persistence.

May I ask, with what in this message did you not agree? I find it hard to understand why anyone wouldn't agree with the main points of his message.

Re: The Feminization of the Modern Church
 

I agree with all of that, there were several messages on his site and I must have listened to a different one than you did.

Re: The Feminization of the Modern Church
 

did you read his interview?

http://christianresearchnetwork.org/...ohnson-part-2/

here are excerpts from the interview

An issue that I think should be of growing concern among evangelicals is that of women pastors. This trend seems to be coming into the mainstream. Some would say this is a secondary issue, which tends to imply that it’s unimportant. What’s your take?

I would put the issue of women teaching [in the same category]. Women in positions of leadership over men, that is the issue. For a woman to be in any position of leadership over men in the church is a violation of clear teaching of Scripture. If you’re willing to twist your understanding of Scripture or put enough latitude into the potential meaning of words to tolerate that, then I don’t really trust your judgment on other important issues.

You wouldn’t take the platform with a woman pastor or with a man who affirms women pastors?


No. I wouldn’t speak in a church that I knew let women be in positions of authority over men. Once you start making accommodations and exceptions it’s only a matter of time before you’re ordaining women.

Re: The Feminization of the Modern Church
 

more from phil:

http://christianresearchnetwork.org/...ohnson-part-2/
What’s most unbiblical is easily boiled down to this: women are not supposed to have authority over men in the church. Whether that’s leading the choir…I went to a church for years where the pastor’s wife was the choir director. This was in my younger years and it didn’t occur to me to question that until she started using her authority to scold men in the choir who were elders in the church! She may even have been right on the issue, but here’s the pastor’s wife giving a public scolding to an elder in our church. It made me think about it.

The biblical issue is the question of authority. It’s not to say that men are smarter than women; it’s not to say that men inherently are better teachers than women, none of that is the case. It’s just the order God established for authority and it’s an issue of authority and the leadership duty in the church.

It’s for the women’s benefit as well, that men, their husbands and fathers and the men in the church, should take leadership because you can see in our culture what happens when this is reversed. When you have a woman who is the spiritual authority in her family, then the family can get out of whack. And the woman is the first one to complain, “My husband’s not being the leader he should be,” and that’s true. It’s as much a sin of the men as it is of the women.

The problem with the church and the feminization of the church is not that “pushy” women have intruded on the leadership, but that men abdicated their responsibility. That was the first problem, the heart of the problem, and if the men would be the men they’re supposed to be, this wouldn’t even be an issue.

It’s a failure of male leadership in the church. But you can’t take a pragmatic view and say, “Well, there are no men to lead so let’s let the women lead,” because then you’ve basically overthrown Scripture.

Re: The Feminization of the Modern Church
 

so the bolded comments above are what Phil says about the feminization of the church and I agree with him whole heartedly.

And I have already stated that I prefer male leadership, but I certainly can't fault women who step up to the plate and try to fill in the gaps.

Re: The Feminization of the Modern Church
 

I didn't read his interview, nor have I listened to any of his other messages, to be honest. Which is why I posted the disclaimer.

I absolutely agree with his statements here. There is no biblical teaching which gives women authority over men in the church.

Re: The Feminization of the Modern Church
 

I agree again with his statements. Women have no biblical role or authority over men in the church.

His story about the Pastor's wife in charge of the music ministry is funny, because my brother attends a church where the Pastor's wife used to be the music director. He's nearly quit a few times due to her outbursts and scolding. I've spoke with a few others who either currently attend or used to attend the same church and they had the same issue.

"""The problem with the church and the feminization of the church is not that “pushy” women have intruded on the leadership, but that men abdicated their responsibility. That was the first problem, the heart of the problem, and if the men would be the men they’re supposed to be, this wouldn’t even be an issue."""

Sad and true.

Re: The Feminization of the Modern Church
 

Now, in looking for more info about Phil Johnson, I note that he's connected with John MacArthur. In fact, the Shepherd's Conference at which Johnson regularly speaks is hosted by John MacArthur.

MacArthur is a cessationist; he believes miracles, healing, prophecy, tongues, etc all ended with the NT church. He even wrote a book about "Strange Fire" in which he seemingly condemned to hell anyone and everyone who was not a cessationist.

If this is also what Phil Johnson believes, and I would assume he does, then I strongly disagree with that.

Re: The Feminization of the Modern Church
 

Maybe I'll listen to the sermon in full. To me, the point he is trying to make is wrong-headed (a couple drops of truth but headed in the wrong direction, wrong conclusion-- ESPECIALLY if he is speaking to Pastors and/or other ministers).