Re: Mark Johnston Drops from UPCI, Garner Next???
 

I guess I was wondering how my post had anything to do with Bro. Holmes!

See Post #115

Falla39

Re: Mark Johnston Drops from UPCI, Garner Next???
 

Plus to my knowledge Joel Holmes has never been UPC so why would his name even come up in this thread? LOL.

Re: Mark Johnston Drops from UPCI, Garner Next???
 

Oh whaaat evaa ! picky picky ,someone mentioned screamers,nothing about orgs. i mentioned non screamers ,nothing about orgs.chillax people !

Re: Mark Johnston Drops from UPCI, Garner Next???
 

I said what I did because I watched him preach with power and fervency. What I saw when I went to his website broke my heart, for it was apparent that he no longer held what he once had. I do not know anything about the interior of his church, nor what it looks like, nor anything about his people, but I can see where he has gone by looking at what he has become. However, I would like to see pictures or something so that I could catch a glimpse of his church services.

As I said, what I saw broke my heart. I have to wonder if he has followed after some of the other patterns the "church" world is setting as well.

Re: Mark Johnston Drops from UPCI, Garner Next???
 

Please describe what you saw

Re: Mark Johnston Drops from UPCI, Garner Next???
 

Was it his beard? His wife's attire? Because those things are soooooo telling :)

I jest. But I can't be sure who the "church world" is that you refer to, nor do I know what you saw that concerned you so much.

All that I know of MJ today is great and wonderful things.

Re: Mark Johnston Drops from UPCI, Garner Next???
 

I do not know anything about his wife and her manner of clothing and/or adorning herself. But when I studied the website, I saw nothing that advocated any form of doctrine; there was little or nothing of substance in the way of a statement of faith or belief. Further, I have been wrestling with the topic of beards and mustaches, but I did not feel that his helped to mark him as being separate from the world or the things therein. Further, I heard no passion or caring in his voice. I felt as if I were watching another cookie cutter mega-church style pastor. The type that will say only good things and not name a single sin, whose churches fill, but whose people never leave behind most of their sins.

I also looked at his blog area, and never once did I see anything that spoke of the amazing transformational power of the Holy Ghost or the Name of Jesus. I saw nothing that would ever mark him as being anything more than a Rick Warren style minister.

He spoke of joining him upon a journey, but he never truly said as to where nor what the ultimate goal of the journey was. Many are the people who journey on this road, but only a few people are going to make it to Heaven which is to be the final goal.

I have written none of these things to be harsh and mean spirited, and I hope that I have not come across so. I remember him as a man who while preaching had a passion and fire for the things of God. I see him again preaching with eyes that would flash under the power of God. You would feel as if he knew exactly where you were, and had a message straight from Heaven itself. It is this that I no longer see.

Not all preachers have that, but I thank God for all of them in their sundry gifts. If I remember correctly, it was after his message in 2007 that God explicitly told me what it was that he wanted me to do and made His will known to me.

These are the things that I no longer perceived, and if that is not what you want, I understand. But it will be those very things that I shall mourn now as lost from among the people.

Re: Mark Johnston Drops from UPCI, Garner Next???
 

I found it to be an erring notion that our appearance and the way we dress is intended by God to mark us as separate from the world. If you think about it, no where in the entire bible is appearance designated to indicate we are distinct from the world. That is a man-made tradition that has somehow become scripture when it is not even in the scripture.

Jesus said our love for one another is what tells the world we are his disciples, not the way we look. To me, it's just like the Roman Catholic Church's emphasis on prayers to Mary to think that the way we dress shows the world who we are. It's not in the bible.

Re: Mark Johnston Drops from UPCI, Garner Next???
 

Modesty is biblical. Specific standards of modesty are not. The only distinction that should be made (biblically) is between the sexes.

Re: Mark Johnston Drops from UPCI, Garner Next???
 

Tell that to the Apostle Paul.

Re: Mark Johnston Drops from UPCI, Garner Next???
 

LOL, Pretty vague there.

Paul said : 1 Timothy 2:9—In like manner also, that women adorn themselves in modest apparel, with shamefacedness and sobriety; not with braided hair, or gold, or pearls, or costly array; but (which becometh women professing godliness) with good works.

So where is the SPECIFIC Standard of Modest Dress? He just said Modest Apparel.

Re: Mark Johnston Drops from UPCI, Garner Next???
 

Agreed. But it is never said to show Christians are distinct from the world. That is my point.

Re: Mark Johnston Drops from UPCI, Garner Next???
 

Other then a Godly woman would not wear "that which pertaineth unto a man".

Re: Mark Johnston Drops from UPCI, Garner Next???
 

Yes, let's talk Deuteronomy shall we.... have a few hours? :)

Also, would love to see you post a photo of yourself wearing some women's pants.

Re: Mark Johnston Drops from UPCI, Garner Next???
 

The bible still does not say that this detail is mean to distinguish a christian from the world. Where are the words in passages associated with appearance similar to "By this shall all men know you are my disciples"?

Re: Mark Johnston Drops from UPCI, Garner Next???
 

amen morcal,

Re: Mark Johnston Drops from UPCI, Garner Next???
 

Wrong. No scripture says modest dress or engendered dress shows the world we are Christians. Where do you guys get this from? The bible says men look like men and women look like women and everyone be modest. BUT NOT TO LET THE WORLD KNOW WE'RE SAVED. Just for good old sensibility's and goodness' sake!

Re: Mark Johnston Drops from UPCI, Garner Next???
 

I think that you said you view the passage in I Corinthians 11 as wearing a veil. Isn't that a distinction between the church and the world?

Re: Mark Johnston Drops from UPCI, Garner Next???
 

I see this as a veil, but that is a cultural thing and veils were common and still are among muslims, etc. It is an eastern thing, not a Christian thing, really. Today in our culture, veils do not make someone think of submission of the woman, So it is moot here in our part of the world. Paul appealed to them to abide by things that the world abode by. It was shocking to the world to see women unveiled since the world even did that! lol

But no where does the bible say to dress a way to appeal to the world to show them we are Christians. That is my point. Doing something the bible said does not mean it is for the world to know we are Christians. There are other reasons than for the world to know we are saved. Somehow this idea was added to the bible that these things tell the world we are saved, when that is not their purposes. ONLY LOVE FOR ONE ANOTHER is meant to show the world who we are. Let's take Jesus' words and stick with them and not add to the bible. It's like many apostolics have left the words of Jesus and exchanged them for words about clothing. Scary.

Re: Mark Johnston Drops from UPCI, Garner Next???
 

But, if the Bible is telling us to do something (short hair on men, veil or long hair on women), isn't that a distinction for us?

Of course, it doesn't make us saved. I am only staying saved as much as I submit myself to God. But, really, if the Bible is instructing us to do anything, it is a separation from what the world is doing. It is a mark for us, isn't it?

Re: Mark Johnston Drops from UPCI, Garner Next???
 

Distinction is involved, for sure. But to show the world we are saved? No. To show who is male and who is female. lol

I do not believe so. We have to be careful about these things. Those who claim clothing is a mark of Christianity often overlook what Jesus explicitly stated was a mark. And the true distinction for being saved is buried with something else.

Think of it. Pharisees uses apparel for distinction of serving God, and Jesus said they were whited sepulchers. Jesus had to stress to them the heart. This is the VERY problem we see with stressing clothing as distinction to the lost.

Re: Mark Johnston Drops from UPCI, Garner Next???
 

When Jesus spoke of what the world sees to know we are saved, it is something they do not need to be trained to recognize we are saved. They automatically get the impression of God when they see believers loving each other. But to see people with certain forms of hairstyles and clothing does not bring GOD to their minds. The world would have to be taught that long hair on a woman means she is a Christian, because that is not what comes to their minds when they see long hair. Same with modest apparel. The world does NOT think of Christianity when they see modest apparel unless they were first somehow taught that. And then it only becomes a certain denomination's way of uniformity, in their minds.

I had a sinner say to me once that Pentecostal girls wear long hair and dresses. That town had a large UPC church in it. Had the church been tiny and few attended there is no way he would know it was a pentecostal thing. Word simply got around. Did it tell him they were Christians? Not it told him they were from a specific denomination. This gets the organizationally minded believers going, but it does not effect a reference to God. He simply saw them as adherents to a certain denomination.

But compare that with love for one another. Loving one another goes beyond apparel for identity and into an entirely different and meaningful level. It points to God. It touches hearts. God is "LOVE". He is not "modest clothing of long and short hair". Jesus and the apostles led by the Spirit picked their words carefully. And we have to be careful to notice what REASONS they actually stated for certain things. And the only one that touches the world, that the world immediately knows is God, is love for one another. It's an instinct in the human spirit.

Think of a tiny church in a town and the believers there have an incredible love for one another. Compare that with a tiny church with dress standards. The church membership in town would be so small that the reputation would not work. The commoners would not see the dress standard and think "spiritual". But they sure would connect the love of God with God!

Re: Mark Johnston Drops from UPCI, Garner Next???
 

I agree with everything that you have said. My point was not that it proved we are saved.

But, again, there is a marked distinction in the Bible. Whether the distinction is presented negatively or positively, there is still a distinction between the church and the world.

Re: Mark Johnston Drops from UPCI, Garner Next???
 

A distinction is there for sure. But I am talking about what we do in order to show the world we are saved. That is the issue to which I responded.

Re: Mark Johnston Drops from UPCI, Garner Next???
 

Right, I understood what you were responding to.

I was coming, solely, from the point that we cannot ever overlook that there is an apparent distinction involved.

The using of that distinction, as a salvational method, is a whole other subject to me. Because, it normally, IMO, clouds that we do have a distinction involved at all.

Re: Mark Johnston Drops from UPCI, Garner Next???
 

I think everyone knows there is a distinction, anyway. The world hates and we care. The world mocks God and we worship Him. The whole issue is distinction. I really do not see how distinction can be buried if we tried, without simply denying God altogether. But giving a message to the world about who is saved is another story altogether.

Re: Mark Johnston Drops from UPCI, Garner Next???
 

I agree!

Re: Mark Johnston Drops from UPCI, Garner Next???
 

:thumbsup:thumbsup

Re: Mark Johnston Drops from UPCI, Garner Next???
 

I think everything we do and how we look is also involved. Not just love alone. That is, of course, the basis of everything - love. But, IMO, it's like the gifts of the spirit. We operate in them, but the basis of our operating is and needs to be centered in love.

Re: Mark Johnston Drops from UPCI, Garner Next???
 

Thus saith, PO. :)

It's not just the basis, it's the width, depth and breadth of it. It's all-encompassing.

Wearing sleeves to your elbows, requiring brown pantyhose only, no pants, and making sure you consciously go to great pains of looking different than the church down the street is not the sign of a disciple.... it's a sign though :)

Re: Mark Johnston Drops from UPCI, Garner Next???
 

He wasn't telling them to do something different than the world was doing, he was telling them to DO what the world was doing. It wasn't a mark of separation - quite the opposite.

Re: Mark Johnston Drops from UPCI, Garner Next???
 

Profound point.

Re: Mark Johnston Drops from UPCI, Garner Next???
 

I wasn't coming from the perspective of standards. But from the point of modesty, we do have a distinction set by the Word of God. We always seem to say or think that our outward appearance is not discussed, but was discussed.

And my opinion is that every man/woman should live by their convictions and I don't question someone's convictions. It's none of my business and my convictions are not anyone's business either. :)

Re: Mark Johnston Drops from UPCI, Garner Next???
 

I don't think so. That doesn't even make sense. The Apostles preached a distinction.

I'm sure the whole "world" wasn't doing this:

1 Timothy 2:9 "I also want the women to dress modestly, with decency and propriety," (NIV)

1 Timothy 2:9 "And I want women to be modest in their appearance." (NLT)

1 Timothy 2:9 "I would like for women to wear modest and sensible clothes." (CEV)

Re: Mark Johnston Drops from UPCI, Garner Next???
 

Yes, it makes sense. Paul's reference to what seems natural/normal, is appeal to not shaming the husband (not according to Church teaching, but social more), etc.

Our separation affects how we even clothe ourselves, though I'm not sure that's as glaring a recognition/contrast as many preach it, force it, command it to be.

Re: Mark Johnston Drops from UPCI, Garner Next???
 

Yes, I agree! :thumbsup

Re: Mark Johnston Drops from UPCI, Garner Next???
 

Exactly.

Re: Mark Johnston Drops from UPCI, Garner Next???
 

Somehow I don't think this is what you mean in the entire of not being different.

If you are saying they didn't dress different than the world, I for the most part agree with you. But a blanket be like the world is not what Jesus preached.

Re: Mark Johnston Drops from UPCI, Garner Next???
 

I think they may have dressed, somewhat, different or Timothy wouldn't have raised the issue and given the teaching that he did. It would be the same circumstances with us today. Two blouse choices - one low cut, one not. Two skirt choices - one short and tight, one not. Two pant choices - one tight and one not. Worldly and Christian choices. We make them today.

IMO, he wouldn't have said what he did if he wasn't contrasting the issue with what he saw as an outside influence. If everyone was dressing the same and it was all peachy keen, I don't think Timothy would have addressed what he wanted from them.

Re: Mark Johnston Drops from UPCI, Garner Next???
 

As far as 1 Cor 11 is concerned, the world WAS doing that, though. The custom of everyone in that part of the world was a woman wearing a veil to indicate submission. And Paul also noted that any woman felt it was a shame to be bald, in the world or not.