Re: Almost saved- so near and yet so far
 

The same is speculated about the Great Flood, tales of a Giant Whale swallowing a man and spitting him out in a great rescue, etc...

I can't answer all those questions -- though I can certainly speculate right along with the best of them. When Jesus used the word "Hell" (3 different forms), he most definitely was identifying with an idea they already knew or were aware of. While I don't believe in fire pit as the final estate for unbelieving people, I do believe in eternal separation -- described with terms as vivid as a fire pit.

To pick and choose what we like and understand in the NT is a dangerous game to start.

And you're right -- I can't prove who will in fact go there. I just know the lie of UR is a false hope. Our only hope is Christ.

Re: Almost saved- so near and yet so far
 

I appreciate these sobering, very true words.

Attempting to elude sin is probably the best way to miss the salvation that is proclaimed in the gospel of Jesus Christ. If one is not careful, they may perceive Jesus as a great spiritual leader, teacher, and prophet; however, attempting to escape sin through one's own efforts is to ultimately deny Jesus as Savior.

Re: Almost saved- so near and yet so far
 

LOL :heeheehee

You guys are so wishy washy.

Remember about 3 weeks ago when you called me a "Modern Day John the Baptist":happydance

Re: Almost saved- so near and yet so far
 

So to boil it all down, your scared to death that if someone reveals their elbow or even cuts gum out of their little girls hair they will go to hell forever.

And your view of God seems to lack little of his true character, in your mind you have a God who is chomping at the bit to tell people "guilty, go to hell".

How sad. Thank God I don't have to go through life with that mental anguish anymore. "Oh, happy day" :)

Re: Almost saved- so near and yet so far
 

As I have gotten older, many things which were told to me as a young man have come full circle. Promises didn't take place, people fell, ideas or prophecies disappeared, and prayers weren't answered.

I see more clearly than ever, an idea or concept can captivate an audience today, only to fall by the wayside many years from now. I have learned that absolutes in realms we can't see are a dangerous way to manipulate people.

I remember years ago seeing a painting of Jesus. Soon, whenever people would talk about Jesus I would see this picture in my mind. After time I found out that the picture in my mind was most likely, wrong. But I've asked myself; where did this picture come from? A man. It came from a person's perspective, a perspective subject to culture, upbringing, and a dogma in Faith.

Today, we have a Book called the Bible. This Book is based upon Texts that carry no originals. We don't even know who the Authors are. The New Testament, which is nothing but a series of copies, is written in Greek (language of the Romans and the birthing place of the Catholic Church), and, we MUST consider the picture which is being painted by whoever wrote these words down.

Who is responsible, who is the one portraying the idea, and from what era do these writings appear?

I am told by Men that I am to accept this Book as a Fact, and if I don't, I will pay the consequences. The picture which this Book paints is troubling. God throwing souls into Hell Fire is atrocious! It's beyond my comprehension, and is the best way to keep me in "Check" by those trying to control me in Faith. If I dare question this Book, my very soul will burn forever.

God never gave Man a Book in the beginning. He gave him a Garden and a wife. In this environment, a man was able to comprehend and adore His Creator. Today, I see the wisdom and beauty of such a simple existence, and I also see that Religion has destroyed this World with confusion, fear, and murder. The very first killing was over Faith, and this sad prelude has never stopped.

I don't want to disrespect anyone here; I only want to be honest. I'm weary in trying to convince myself that something is real, when it's not.

Re: Almost saved- so near and yet so far
 

I could begin an entire thread on the fidelity of manuscripts, and how they stack up as chief among any other ancient writings in terms of earliest witnesses from the original manuscript, to the # of copies, etc. I could also go into how the preservation of the message is in the form of a holistic story and not necessarily nook and cranny details.

Without a Bible, we have of Jesus only what some historians wrote -- that is, if we want to accept their work as legitimate as well. So that leaves us not only without a painting of Jesus, but with no Jesus at all.

The Bible is not a religious idol -- at least it's not supposed to be. It's recordings by mortals of God's intervening in our world and life. It's continuing the story that began in Eden. Flawed men, inspired by their experience, writing and sharing. We too get to live in that Story.

Re: Almost saved- so near and yet so far
 

You could but, you would be wasting your time, N4S believes he's enlightened, and He decides what's true and whats not. I've suggested that he should join the Jesus Seminar http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jesus_Seminar

Re: Almost saved- so near and yet so far
 

The Bible is a Book written by men, plain and simple. The Bible is also a Book of controversy, and it can basically become what you want it to become. We can proclaim all day long that "We Know the Truth", but others will flat out disagree with you, using Scripture to justify their stance. Over 30,000 Denominations on this Earth prove this. Agreement is impossible and unity unattainable.

For instance, the Bible says, "Thou shalt not kill." This Commandment is pretty clear, at least with me. We are not supposed to kill. Then, Israel basically "Nukes" Amalek, killing every man, woman, child, baby, pregnant women, and animals, in God's Name. You can slice it and dice it, but the bottom line is, this was a mass slaughter of Humanity in the Name of Religion, better known as Genocide.

Today, we totally criticize and condemn what Hitler did to the Jews in the Holocaust, and I agree, this was mass murder. But, this historical slaughter of other Human Beings by the Jews is written down for all to see, and, the Wars and Killings didn't stop with Amalek; the march to conquer and divide thousands of years ago by God's People has the eerie tone of murder and blood.

Let's look at what the Bible says about Jesus; He stopped the stoning of a woman caught in Adultery, and commanded US to forgive and to be merciful. He said, “Father, forgive them for they know not what they do” and pardoned a Thief in his dying breath. He reached for the poor, the hungry, and the lost, saying a man beating his chest in confession is more justified than a man walking the Strait and Narrow. He told us to love our enemies and that He came to this World to SAVE people, not destroy them. But in the end He will cast these same people into an Inferno of Torture if they don’t “Line Up”.

This is not only confusing, it’s contradicting. We are supposed to believe that you can be God’s Child today, but not tomorrow if you fail.

Christians today are falling for Religious "Smoke and Mirrors" and live by "Out of sight, Out of Mind." We hammer our pulpits with, "Saul was rebellious for not killing the King of Amalek", yet we wouldn't pull the trigger ourselves. We pat the sword bearer on the back, telling him, "GO AND KILL", while the Commandment to NOT kill is forgotten or justified because, "God told us to KILL".

Agreement within this Book will never happen and this disagreement continues to plague the World with Denominal Faith (We have it, you don't). There is an endless cycle of debate regarding what is truly expected of us (The Human Race), via the Bible, and the Populace of the World is scratching their head with what to do.

Think about the Apostolic Movement; Speak in tongues, yes or no? Baptism, yes or no? Hair on Women, long or short? Jewelry, yes or no? Paying Tithes, yes or no? TV, yes or no? Pants or dresses, yes or no? Drinking wine, yes or no? Facial hair, yes or no? Christmas, yes or no? The Sabbath, yes or no? The Godhead, Holiness, Salvation, Music, Divorce, Sin, the list never stops, and neither do the questions, all because of the Bible. One Church says this, another says that.

I see this problem as a Human Element that cannot be avoided, and that this Human Element is within this Book that we claim is God’s Voice. I honestly don’t know why we can’t seem to admit this. Maybe it's fear. Maybe peer pressure.

I’ve tried sharing with others that we MUST validate Truth by experience, not hearsay. God gave us this Life to gain a measurement that can validate what is real and what isn’t, and every time we step into the “Beyond” the loose cannon is unleashed! When I was in the Marines, firing the M16 and hitting the Bull’s-eye required focus and absolute awareness of the surrounding environment. Ignoring these would send the bullet into the oblivion of maybe.

When the target came out of the “Butts” with a white circle on the pole, a smile would glimmer across my face, knowing I was heading for another “Expert Badge” if I kept the facts in view. I intend to do this with my Walk with God. Socialite, I'm tired of the confusion and the Church playing upon my emotions where there is no black and white, and speculation is the rule.

Re: Almost saved- so near and yet so far
 

"And though we or an angel from heaven"

Re: Almost saved- so near and yet so far
 

So, what makes you right? These are the kinds of statments I'm talking about; trying to tap the emotion with speculation, not the facts.

Re: Almost saved- so near and yet so far
 

A Christian cannot be a Christian and claim the Bible is a book written by mere mortal men. It is the Word of God and those who believe otherwise do so in damnation to their own souls.

Re: Almost saved- so near and yet so far
 

A UPCI brother in this video. Would be curious (as well as NFS) what your thoughts are.

http://imgood.me/2010/04/roy-fishers-story-q-a/

Re: Almost saved- so near and yet so far
 

I thought of your post tonight. Something I will try and share tomorrow.

Re: Almost saved- so near and yet so far
 

Excellent video! Very interesting coming from a UPCI circle of influence. Years ago, I'm not so sure his platform of ideas would be accepted. Even today, many probably don't agree with his approach to the Bible.

He made several great points, one of which is this (I'm paraphrasing); "Don't expect the Bible to stay within ONE Religious Ideal." He didn’t really expound on this, but I’m sure his thoughts would send shivers up some of our Oneness spines!

Another point that kind of reached out and grabbed me was, allow yourself to become part of the story. He said the Bible is nothing but a series of stories, covering every aspect of our lives, with Redemption at the core. We all fit somewhere, as the Human element throughout Scripture is obvious.

Roy also pointed out that to "Challenge" the Bible is a MUST! Severe doubt will yield answers.

Roy is a very educated and qualified individual to expound on the Historical and analytical layout of Scripture, and he admits the Bible is COMPLICATED. I will be curious to see how his ideas evolve (If I'm still around :)) many years from now.

Experience always brings transformation.

Re: Almost saved- so near and yet so far
 

Glad you enjoyed it and thanks for letting me know you took a listen.

I thought it gave up some humble ground, and really encouraged even me how to approach the Bible.

Re: Almost saved- so near and yet so far
 

I love the way he digs into the story, very stimulating!!!

Re: Almost saved- so near and yet so far
 

And yet the Bible itself testifies that it was "written by 'mere' mortal men."

Exodus 24:24; Numbers 33:2; Joshua 8:32; 1 Samuel 10:25; 1 Chronicles 24:6; Jeremiah 36:4; Daniel 7:1; Luke 1:1-4; Act 15:19-23; Romans 16:27 - (see the subscript on this and each of the following verses); 1 Corinthians 16:24; 2 Corinthians 13:14; and etc.

2 Peter 1:20-21:

"Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation. For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost."

Since all of these men are now dead, it's pretty safe to say that they were all "mere mortal men."

Re: Almost saved- so near and yet so far
 

Listened to this tonight. Wow. Kept my attention all the way through...

Re: Almost saved- so near and yet so far
 

Some teasers :)

Re: Almost saved- so near and yet so far
 

It was poenned by men as they were moved upon by the Spirit. Your hatred for the inspiration of the Word makes me question some things.

Re: Almost saved- so near and yet so far
 

Pel is known for quibbling but not for hating the Word or its inspiration.

Re: Almost saved- so near and yet so far
 

:thumbsup

Re: Almost saved- so near and yet so far
 

I hope I die on a church day. I only shave on church days, kinda scruffy the rest of the time. gonna split hell if I die on a Saturday.

Re: Almost saved- so near and yet so far
 

You do err not knowing the scriptures nor the power of God.

Re: Almost saved- so near and yet so far
 

Thanks ladies.

The "quibble" is that men really did write the Bible (and ladies too - the Song of Miriam and the Song of Deborah were obviously written by the females named, perhaps other passages as well).

When we say "men wrote (spake) as they were moved by the Holy Ghost" we are looking at a process of inspiration whereby the writer is involved in the process as well. Throughout the history of the Church it has been said that the writers were not an "amanuensis" - that is, a secretarial scribe writing down word-for-word what has being dictated.

God did not "dictate" the Bible to an amanuensis; instead, we see the Holy Spirit moving upon human beings and inspiring them to write. This is why we see the writers of the Bible confessing their own limitations - even as they are writing Holy Writ. Consider the example of the apostle Paul: 1 Corinthians 1:16.

Now, we can easily see how a human being such as Paul might forget some of the names of those he had baptized in Corinth, but would the Holy Ghost forget their names as well? (Psalm 37:28; John 10:28-29). Why couldn't Paul just "ask the Holy Ghost" if he had left any names out?

There are many other examples as well:

2 Chronicles 4:2, tells us that the "compass" (circumference) of the "molten sea" (the brasen sea) in Solomon's Temple was "30 cubits" around. It also adds that this huge vessel was "ten cubits" from "rim to rim" (the radius).

What's wrong with that equation?

Does the fact that the Chronicler is obviously unfamiliar with the value of pi invalidate the Book? No. The Chronicler was inspired by the Holy Spirit to record the details of the Temple and not in matters pertaining to mathematics. The use of "rounding" was permitted since there are no supernatural associations with the measurements of Solomon's Temple and its furnishings.

Consider the difference between the way Mark and Luke refer to a quote of David from Psalm 110:1:

Mark 12:36 - For David himself said by the Holy Ghost, The LORD said to my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, till I make thine enemies thy footstool.


Luke 20:42-43 - And David himself saith in the book of Psalms, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, Till I make thine enemies thy footstool.

Now, since the Gospel of Mark was written first, and since Luke obviously used Mark's Gospel as source material (Luke 1:1-4) - did Luke "err" by dropping out the "by the Holy Ghost" phase? And, just why did Luke leave that out? Did the Holy Ghost Himself inspire Luke to leave it out? Was it "lost" over the centuries by copyists?

Or, did Luke consider David's words important, but just not "as inspired" as Mark considered them? No matter what conclusion you might reach, for me it seems quite plain that Luke felt he was communicating the exact same idea when he said "David himself said..." as Mark had communicated when he said, "David himself said by the Holy Ghost..."

That's how the inspired writers of the NT handled this; so UnTraditional, just what was it about my own post that makes you think I "hate the inspired Word of God?" And, do you also think Luke, the author of the Gospel and the Acts of the Apostles "hates the inspired Word of God?"

Re: Almost saved- so near and yet so far
 

I think El Predictor was again being "ironic" in his post. "Stirring the pot," as it were.