Re: Any experience with Jehovah Witnesses?
 

So... anybody with actual experience in this area got any advice?

Re: Any experience with Jehovah Witnesses?
 

Jehovah Witnesses really don't work in debate mode, because they are groomed to not believe a word you say (like Mormons) but the only way to really win them is building a friendship. One ex-Jay Hov I Bible studied later commented to me that he would often try to get me to loose my patience, but I would only laugh, and keep the discussion going. What really impacted him was me wanting to be friends instead of wanting to clone him into my brand of religion. Sure scriptural proofs were given, but through it all there had to be a genuine want to see the individual as a life long brother. I look at it this way, whether they be Eastern Orthodox or Jay Hove Witnesses you have to get them to see Jesus, not you, the real Jesus and when they see that, then they open up and listen, with full attention.

Then, there is always praying them through to the Holy Ghost. I have done that with many in a Bible study, Jay Hoves, Mormons, even a starchy Church of Christless, and it was something to see, oh, and hear. :)

Re: Any experience with Jehovah Witnesses?
 

How is that working with sean?

Re: Any experience with Jehovah Witnesses?
 

How do you get them to see you being a genuine friend when they are indoctrinated into NOT having outside friendships? I mean, I'm not sure they would be willing to "come over for barbecue" or go hang out at the local non-Starbucks coffee house?

Re: Any experience with Jehovah Witnesses?
 

Another question... some things I have read suggest that one should focus on the deity of Christ (using their own translation), the idea being to show them that the Watchtower teaching is contradictory, and is really polytheism. On the other hand, I have read where the best results are obtained by looking at the watchtower itself, and examining its claims to be God's mediator and 'prophet'.

But it seems to me that they would be trained to deflect on both points. Again, I want to try to avoid any Bible ping-pong back and forth on various doctrines until I can at least plant the seeds that the Watchtower is not what it claims to be. I think they have to doubt THAT before anything else can take place in their minds?

Evangelist, can you describe some of your conversations with JWs who you know wound up leaving the Watchtower and who came into the truth? I mean pre-salvation conversations, how did you discuss scripture without them concluding you were just an obstinate unbeliever and so they don't come around anymore? I mean, they pretty much only want to talk about doctrine to begin with...?

Re: Any experience with Jehovah Witnesses?
 

That is AWESOME!

Re: Any experience with Jehovah Witnesses?
 

Bible study, continually Bible studying, and meeting regularly over the years. No hanging out, always keeping the discussion around the word. Also praying them through to the Holy Ghost is a real short cut. :)

Re: Any experience with Jehovah Witnesses?
 

This is where I always start, I allow them to bring forward what they believe, and weed out those who are dishonest. The men and women, and teenagers that have come out, did it because they were cool people, and they were HONEST, and sincere. You can have JESUS preach and David play his harp, and if they aren't honest, you can forget it. One God, Holy Ghost infilling, those were the cherries on the top of the cheese cake. The ones that I dealt with was always through eschatology. Because that's their baby, and when we go there we start to really get the ball rolling. Then they start to see that Jesus is the same God who was on the cloud in Isaiah 19:1. ;)

Re: Any experience with Jehovah Witnesses?
 

:lol lawyers

Re: Any experience with Jehovah Witnesses?
 

The JW's claim "the mighty God" of Isaiah 9:6 is not referring to Jehovah as they make a distinction between "Almighty God" (Jehovah) and "the Mighty god" (Jesus) but when I present the following verse, they make all kinds of exceptions, as this verse clearly makes no distinction.


Jer 32:17 Ah Lord GOD! behold, thou hast made the heaven and the earth by thy great power and stretched out arm, and there is nothing too hard for thee:
Jer 32:18 Thou shewest lovingkindness unto thousands, and recompensest the iniquity of the fathers into the bosom of their children after them: the Great, the Mighty God, the LORD of hosts, is his name,

Re: Any experience with Jehovah Witnesses?
 

Their NWT says "Mighty One" not Mighty God.

Re: Any experience with Jehovah Witnesses?
 

That is true, but "Mighty" to them is not Jehovah in most of their presentations, as Jehovah is "The Almighty."

So it still doesn't fit in the box they made.

To them, "Mighty" has some power, but "Almighty" has all power.

Also, Rev 1:8-18 speaks of the Alpha and Omega, the first and the last, but they don't take it down to verse 18 which identifies "the Almighty" as he that was dead and is now alive.

Re: Any experience with Jehovah Witnesses?
 

the original says "YHWH," so i don't see how anyone could get far on that track?

Re: Any experience with Jehovah Witnesses?
 

In the 1950s in grade school there were 2 jw male students in our class. We would not have known, but we said the pledge to the flag everyday.
They were excused from this.
Both boys stayed seated.

Many years later, married, living in SD, there was jw family living at the end of the block. Their children were excused and went home whenever there was a birthday celebration or holiday activity.
If my classmates went home in the 1950s I was unaware. They may have been forewarned and stayed home that day.

Basically they seemed to fly under the radar.

Re: Any experience with Jehovah Witnesses?
 

There are two ladies who periodically knock on my door. I do not answer.

My husband, if home, loves to get in discussions with them. Usually the younger one will pay attention and then the older one will end the session.

My polish catholic great grandparents converted to JW in the 1920s and are buried in a JW cemetery in WI.

Re: Any experience with Jehovah Witnesses?
 

UPDATE

So the two JWs came by today and once again 'overstayed' their visit. (That is, they stayed longer than they planned, about an hour and a half. I hope I don't get them into trouble...) We chatted a bit about various issues (ranging from Halloween and other pagan holidays, to the Trinity, and a wide range of topics in between). We kept it pretty much low-level, as I am taking the approach that there is little purpose in debating doctrines with them at this point. I am keeping in mind that to the JW, the Watchtower is God's spokesman, so Bible debates do not really matter, similar to 'debating' a hard-core knowledgeable catholic or Orthodox. The Organisation has the 'truth', so everything else is secondary. I have to get them to see, or at least begin to question, whether or not the Watchtower indeed is the appointed, divinely chosen representative of God and dispenser of 'spiritual food' for this age. Which means I have to zero in on the authority of the Watchtower first before we can really start digging into doctrinal 'differences'.

So they of course had left their little booklet 'What Does the Bible Really Teach?' I mentioned to them I had read through some of it, but not all of it, and was really interested in some of the claims it made concerning 1914. In summary, their literature they had left me last week says that there is a prophecy in Daniel concerning a 2520 year period 'times of the gentiles/nations', that began in 607 BC with the overthrow of the Davidic monarchy and which would continue until its end point in October of 1914. At which point the time period being ended, the heir to the throne of David was installed as King, ie in 1914 Jesus began to 'reign' as King over the earth.

Supposedly, Psalm 110 prophesies that Christ, upon his ascension, would be 'seated at the right hand of God' waiting until he was to begin his reign as King. This waiting was to be ended when the 2520 years ('seven times') ended in 1914. Thus, Jesus began to reign in 1914. This was the fulfillment of the prophecy in Revelation 12 about Satan and his angels being cast out of heaven down into the earth, which was would bring a time of trouble to the earth and the world system. This, they say, was demonstrated in 1914 with WW1, the Great Depression, WW2, and all the other 'troubles' we have had since 1914. And therefore, they say, Armageddon is fast approaching when the 'short time' that Satan has here on this earth will run out, the wicked will be destroyed, the first resurrection will take place, the 1000 year kingdom of Jehovah will be set up on earth, all rule and government will be abolished except for the heavenly Kingdom of God, which will reign in the affairs of men.

According to the literature, 'a group of Bible students' prior to 1914 had discerned from their studies of prophecy that the seven times (2520 year) period would end in 1914.

Now, I asked about this, and told them I wanted to see how these Bible students came to this conclusion before 1914. I specifically asked 'how did they know to take the seven times prophecy given to Nebuchadnezzar and apply it to 'the times of the nations', and how did they know to start the countdown at 607 BC?

Now, one of them specifically stated 'they knew something was going to happen in 1914, but they didn't know what.' I know from the research I've been doing the past two weeks that the Bible students (Jehovah's Witnesses) prior to 1914 had an expectation, and were confident of their expectation of what was to happen. So I think either this particular JW either doesn't really know the history of the organisation, or the Organisation has 'gotten new light' and conveniently revised their history (as they are known to do) to now be claiming 'we knew something was going to happen but we didn't know what was going to happen.' I have read JW literature from before 1914 up to the 1930s and 40s, and they were adamant that they knew exactly what was going to happen. Namely, that Armageddon was going to take place in 1914 (since they believed Christ began to reign in 1874!). Of course, by the 1940s, their understanding had to be tossed out, and so in 1943 they got 'new light' and changed their doctrine to 'in 1914 Christ began to reign', and pushed Armageddon off to 1975. (After 1975, they got some more convenient 'new light' and determined nobody knows when Armageddon is gonna happen...)

So we talked a little about this, and I got them to offer to 'do some research' and come back with some more detailed studies on this subject. This gives me the opportunity to dredge up some older JW literature. I am probably going to try to pull up and print out copies of the Watchtower showing the following:

1. The Bible Students were looking for Armageddon in 1914.
2. They believed Christ began to reign in 1874.
3. They were ABSOLUTELY ASSURED of these things.
4. They did not understand 1914 being the BEGINNING of Christ's reign until 1943 when they changed their interpretation.

Now, I expect the defense will be 'well, nobody's perfect and we all grow and learn and change...' But I have to make the point - the CURRENT literature claims a group of people were faithful to Jehovah and were given the understanding from God concerning these things. So... the question is 'well, who gave them their information about 1874, their early understanding of 1914, etc?' Certainly not Jehovah, because he would not be giving his faithful servants FALSE information...?

I have to get down to the question: How did God choose the JWs and the Watchtower as the faithful and discreet slave dispensing good spiritual food at the proper time, when at the time of their 'selection' by God, they were utterly and completely wrong about practically everything? In other words, there is a conflict between what the Watchtower claims, and what the Watchtower actually did and does. Or in other words, there is a conflict between the Watchtower's criteria for 'true worship' and the Watchtower itself.

Now, we also got into a discussion about the identity of Christ. I think they were a bit taken aback. I explained Oneness to them using terms they could understand (I did NOT want to get them off into trying to disprove the Trinity), and they responded with basically that they believe Jesus Christ was a pre-existent spirit being, the 'Begotten Son of God', who came into the world and was put inside Mary's womb. I pointed out to them this sounds exactly like what the catholics claim about the Trinity, that the 'Son of God' came into Mary's womb. I mentioned that Luke declares the REASON Christ is called 'the Son of God' is because he was born of a virgin by a miracle of the Holy Spirit. I asked them 'if he was begotten before he was born, was he born twice? When was he begotten?' They tried to deflect by claiming begotten means 'created' and I pointed out that if I 'build' or 'create' something I did NOT 'beget' it... I almost wanted to ask them 'who was his mother?' lol

Anyway, they accepted they could see what I saying about Christ being the full manifestation or revelation of God, although they did not agree with the idea he is YHVH 'in the flesh', but rather 'Michael the angel in the flesh. (!)

I brought up the Angel of YHVH in the OT, as a manifestation or appearance of YHVH, but they said 'there was only a few times where this was actually Godf Himself, like the burning bush and maybe when God talked to Abraham, but usually whenever God 'spoke' to anyone he did it through his servants (the angels), just like the President can 'tell' a foreign country something, but he doesn't do it himself, he does it through his secretary of state or an ambassador...'

They also brought up Jesus is the visible image of the invisible God in the same way that a son is said to be 'the spittin image of his dad'. They also brought up the old catholic trinitarian argument about Adam and Eve being 'made one', but they weren't the same person, they were just in one accord.

I was careful to constantly reaffirm that we have to take the Bible for what it says, even if we don't understand how or why it says things, we have to begin with BELIEVING what it says first of all, and the understanding will come later through prayer and study. So when I see the Bible say that Christ is a man, the Son of God, that he prayed, worshipped God, etc etc, I accept that. But I also have to accept those places where statements about YHVH are applied directly to Christ, where Christ is called God, etc. I did bring up Thomas and 'my Lord and my God' and their answer to that was that 'either Thomas was perhaps confused or did not understand things at that point in time, or he was just recognizing Jesus was a godlike being'.

(See what I mean? Their arguments against the fact that Jesus Christ IS Jehovah in the flesh are not only unbiblical, but illogical and self contradictory, but that does not deter them. Instead, whatever the Watchtower says, no matter how illogical or unscriptural, is the truth because the Watchtower has the truth and dispenses truth at the appropiate time..)

I noticed that they are really big on selling the Watchtower organisation. They emphasize repeatedly that they are the ones who go 'door to door' preaching 'the gospel', that nobody else does it or can do it. ('Many have tried, churches have tried, but they give up. Churches have even hired companies to do it for them and those companies can't do it. Why? Because they do not have Jehovah's blessing like we do...') They are big on how successful the Jehovah's Witnesses are, how they are the only ones preaching God's government-about-to-overthrow-earthly-goverments, door to door, to reach everyone on earth before Armageddon. They also reaffirmed several times how they themselves were skeptical, and how 'hard' it was for them to 'convert', because they were skeptical, but by gosh they started to see that only the Jehovah's Witnesses had an accurate understanding of prophecy and the end times, and were the only ones doing the preaching work commanded in the Scriptures...

I definitely did get the idea that they were selling the Watchtower org. They like to talk about it, how great it is, how wonderful things are in the Kingdom Hall, how Jehovah guides them and yada yada yada. I've never met a religious proselytizer who seemed so big on promoting their denomination, except catholics, a few 'landmark' type Baptists, and Hare Krishnas and Mormons.

Wow.

So there it is, now I've got to get crackin' and do more research on their '1914' doctrine. I also intend to bring up the 144,000 'spiritual sons of God' they believe will reign with Christ. I want to ask 'are they ruling now, since Christ is? If so, where are they, who are they, HOW do they rule?' The 144,000 is an interesting doctrine they have. It is one of the LEAST Biblically supported doctrines of theirs. In fact, by discussing the 144,000, we will get into the subject of regeneration and being 'born again' (they believe only the 144,000 are born again)...yet Jesus said 'except you are born again you will NOT see the kingdom of God'... so why do they preach about a hope they have no hope of seeing?

I also want to get into 1 Cor 15 which teaches Christ's being seated at the right hand of God requires his sitting TO REIGN UNTIL his enemies are destroyed, including death. Which means his 'waiting' is NOT waiting to begin his reign, but waiting for all enemies to be subdued, including death. Which means he does not begin reigning in 1914, but began when he ascended to heaven and took up his throne!

Re: Any experience with Jehovah Witnesses?
 

BTW, one thing I noticed in their little book about what the Bible really doesn't teach is the idea that the sons of David ruled 'on YHVH's throne'. That is, they understand that the throne of David is called God's throne, and (for example) Solomon was seated on YHVH's throne to rule over Israel. This led me to believe that they have a ready answer to Oneness arguments regarding Christ in Revlation being on the Father's throne, or there being only one throne in heaven - namely that these are figurative statements regarding Christ being the king in the Davidic monarchy of God, as a son of David. So Christ ruling as King means he sits 'on Jehovah's throne', not that he is in Jehovah's lap or that he is Jehovah himself on the throne.

Just a heads up in case you ever get into a discussion with JWs, Christadelphians, International Bible Students, Sacred Namers like the Assemblies of Yahweh or other groups that believe Christ is not God.

Re: Any experience with Jehovah Witnesses?
 

Bumping this in case anyone would like to chime in with their experiences...

Re: Any experience with Jehovah Witnesses?
 

Ask them to explain 1 John 5:20

Re: Any experience with Jehovah Witnesses?
 

well, if one did that, then in the next breath they might be tempted to start questioning Catholics on some doctrinal difference; and the next thing you know, you would have a lawyer conference :lol
better to seek where one agrees, imo; stop seeing them as "JW," or anything else, iow.

Re: Any experience with Jehovah Witnesses?
 

That will do no good whatsoever. As I have been pointing out, they believe wholeheartedly that the Wstchtower organization is THE spokesman on earth for God, it is God's organization and WHATEVER the Watchtower teaches is 'truth'. If I ask them to 'explain' a verse in the Bible, they will give the Watchtower explanation, no matter how ridiculous or illogical it may be. If then I get into a debate about the meaning of ANY Bible verse, I will have failed, and they will have succeeded.

That is what they WANT - a Bible debate. Why? Because it DEFLECTS and DISTRACTS from the REAL issue - the authority of the Watchtower to dictate to them the interpretation of truth.

The ONLY way ANY JW leaves the Watchtower is by concluding - on their own - that the Watchtower is NOT appointed by God to dispense spiritual truth and manage Christ's 'household goods' in this world. And the ONLY way a JW ever gets to that point is by being faced with inconsistencies in the Watchtower's own literature ABOUT ITSELF. One has to get them to begin asking themselves questions, like 'According to the Watchtower's teaching, the Watchtower itself cannot be God's appointed servant. How can that be?'

Only after asking themselves these types of questions, and laying awake at night pondering how to resolve the issue, will they begin to think for themselves.

This is NOT a matter of 'doctrine'. JWs are literally mind controlled. It is the THOUGHT PROCESS ITSELF that has to be dealt with. Anyone who does not fully understand this will have little or no success in reaching them. And those who do have success rarely, if EVER, personally see the results. It takes months if not YEARS for a JW to break free of the programming they receive in the Watchtower. And it is not just the 'teachings', it is the isolation and control mechanisms the Watchtower puts in place that have to be faced.

A JW will often lose EVERYTHING to leave the Watchtower. They are therefore HIGHLY motivated NOT TO QUESTION OR THINK INDEPENDENTLY.

Again, this is not like arguing with the local Baptist. The Watchtower literally is a mind control cult. The more I have studied this, and listened to ex-JW testimony, and actually studied Watchtower literature, the more I become convinced they are a DANGEROUS group.

Just google 'Watchtower Australia' and you will see they are just as bad if not worse than the RCC in regard to child abusers and institutionalised official policies of covering up and hiding perverts.

Re: Any experience with Jehovah Witnesses?
 

Quick update. The JWs came by Thursday. One I had met the previous week but the other guy got replaced by an even older 'elder'. I think they are trying out the local big guns or something... lol

Anyway, just a few observations:

1. They are selling the Org. They promote God, Jesus, and the Bible as marketing tools for their Org. That is to say the Bible, God (Jehovah), and Christ are simply things they use to 'sell' their group, they are not promoting Jesus or God or the Bible but the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society (aka 'Jehovah's Witnesses'). It's ALL about the group. They spent half their time talking about how great the Org is, how much they are doing, how only they are doing what they do, how they are the only ones who CAN do what they do. They said nobody else goes door to door like they do, nobody CAN go door to door like they do, nobody preaches the 'gospel' like they do, or CAN preach it like they do. They went on and on about how big their conferences are, how up to date and well organized their meetings and conferences are, how awesome the facilities are. They went on about how many JWs there are (there's EIGHT MILLION of us, worldwide, all preaching the gospel, nobody else can come close to us!). Just on and on and on and on. The JW message is a gospel of 'the greatest organization on earth, OUR organization.' Jesus and God and all that are just selling points to get you to ACCEPT the group. I almost felt like I was at an AMWAY meeting...

2. They no longer teach Jesus came back in 1914. A doctrine, THE capstone, corner piece and central tenet of their distinctive theology was for almost an entire century that Jesus came back invisibly in 1914. Not anymore. That doctrine is gone with the wind. Instead, it has been replaced (as of 2013) with the teaching that Jesus 'began to reign invisibly from heaven in Kingdom Power' in 1914, thus starting 'the Last Days' (tm). I am still trying to get my bearings on this, as it changes quite a bit in regard to how I approach them.

3. They no longer teach that Jesus appointed the watchtower as the 'faithful and discreet slave over all the Master's goods' like they had been teaching for almost 100 years. Instead, they now teach (as of 2013) that Jesus simply appointed the JWs as his chosen instrument (faithful and discreet slave) to 'dispense proper spiritual food in due season'. Previously, they taught God appointed their Org BECAUSE the Org was teaching Bible truth, whereas all other churches were lost in error and false doctrine. NOW, they teach God chose their Org because they were 'sincere and honest-hearted' and could be CORRECTED FROM FALSE DOCTRINE by God. And thus, with one fell sweep, they brush aside ALL objections to them based on the countless false predictions, false prophecies, false doctrines, and doctrinal flip flops they have made over the past century.

I kind of feel like the rug has been pulled out from under me. Not sure how to deal with this at the moment. I honestly cannot see any basis whatsoever for WHY the Org is 'God's appointed group' that they could come up with. They have repudiated pretty much everything they stood for previously! Yet they still believe the Org is GOD'S ONLY ARK OF SAFETY. I can see it: "Why is the JW group God's special group?" "Why, because we are the only one's doing what He said needs to be done!" "But, there are other groups bigger than yours doing pretty much the same..." "Yeah, but they weren't appointed by God like we were." "So, why would God appoint YOUR group and not them?" "Because we were honest and sincere and could be corrected." "So can't God do the same with the others?" "But who else is as successful as we are?" "But those others are bigger and more organized and thus more successful..." "Yeah, but they aren't appointed like we are..."

In other words, purely circular reasoning is all that is left. It boggles the mind.

4. The OLDER elder was really pushy about trying to get me to admit that 'perhaps God led them to my house to show me I need to join them', and that 'so you see that JWs are really the only ones preaching the gospel of God's kingdom in this day and age'. The older guy would make a great high pressure salesman...

5. They are DEFINITELY sincere about what they believe. They REALLY DO BELIEVE that the end of the world is imminent. They really do believe that EVERYBODY IS GOING TO DIE A HORRIBLE DEATH ANY DAY NOW unless they are in the JW group. I actually thought the older guy was going to start crying tears and begin begging me to join to escape the horrible Armageddon coming soon. These people, in their sincerity and earnestness, put EVERY DISPENSATIONALIST I HAVE EVER PERSONALLY MET TO SHAME, in regard to their zeal to get folks 'saved from the coming wrath'. They are serious about what they believe and what needs to be done.

The SADDEST PART OF ALL is they think salvation lies in the Watchtower org, instead of in Jesus. Their group literally teaches Jesus Christ is NOT THEIR MEDIATOR (he's only the Mediator for the 144,000 anointed ones), that instead the GOVERNING BODY (board of directors) of the Watchtower is their Mediator!

Pray for our studies with these Jehovah's Witnesses. Pray that somehow God will recover them out of the snare of the devil and reveal JESUS CHRIST to their souls.

Re: Any experience with Jehovah Witnesses?
 

Awesome will continue to pray with you concerning this.

Re: Any experience with Jehovah Witnesses?
 

Thank you. Of all the people I have interacted with, THESE folks (JWs) have been the toughest to deal with. I have witnessed to satanists, new agers, Buddhists, Hare Krishnas, atheists, Baptists, catholics, charismatics, 12 steppers, and a whole bunch of others. But JWs are in a class all by themselves, in my opinion.

Re: Any experience with Jehovah Witnesses?
 

I dealt with a certain JEW several times. He saw something more than what he had.

He would visit a friend of mine whose family was involved in our church. This man he visited was a backslider and sadly still is. But the man told me this JW was on his way to his house, so I came over.

I started to chat and he began to chat. He got into the material -emphasis JW's have, since they cannot deal with anything spiritual. His focus was on how clean they leave their campsites compared to other church groups, how their printing facilities are so clean you could eat off the floor, how blood transfusions are eating blood, how Jesus died on a stake and not a cross, and how hell is the grave.

I first told him everything he emphasized was natural and material, and I heard nothing about righteousness, new birth, spirituality in general and being led of the Spirit.

Anyway, as the chat continued, I stopped and said we should pray. He disagreed as JW's will not pray in public. he asked why we should pray. I said one of us was wrong and we need to pray and bind the spirit of deception so that if I am wrong I will see it, and if he is wrong he will see it. He started to try to get the chat going again, and avoid prayer, so I stopped and prayed aloud myself, anyway.

Wow, did the family see his true colours that moment! He flared up and angrily attacked me verbally and said I was terrible and an awful person, and a lot of similar accusations. The family's mouths were agape!

As we continued, he started attacking all these preachers like Jimmy Swaggart who had fallen (that was in the early 90's). I actually started to weep. As he talked, he slowed down noticing me as I wept.

He asked, 'What's wrong?"

I said, "You are speaking about genuine souls of human beings. They were wrong and they know they're wrong. But instead of kicking them in the guts, you should be praying for them to get hold of God again."

He shut up.

A few weeks later, he was making his rounds knocking on doors in a community where some of our saints lived. He knocked on our church member's door. They stopped him and said they already attend a church. he asked where. They said it was the church I pastored, and named me. He paused, and said he loves souls.

THAT is the thing JW's will notice.

Re: Any experience with Jehovah Witnesses?
 

So they came by today, and we had an interesting talk about resurrection and Judgment Day.

Apparently, they believe that when a person dies, they are acquitted from their sins, because death is the penalty for sin. So then the righteous and the unrighteous will be resurrected during the Millennium with a clean slate, will be taught God's ways and Kingdom laws, and will be judged on how they obey those ways. If by the end of the Millennium they are not faithfully obedient, they will be destroyed.

I asked them about Revelation 20:5, which says 'but the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished.' It took them about 30 minutes to come up with an answer, and their final answer was as follows:

People who know to do right by God and who have heard the gospel message in this life, but who refuse to repent in this life, will most likely not be resurrected, unless Jehovah sees some possibility in them that they will do better during the Millennium. Concerning verse 5, they concluded that it is figurative language, and simply means that the rest of the dead will not be 'fully alive, with eternal life', until after the Millennium period and they pass the probation and get to live forever. They also said Judgment Day is the Millennium, not an event that occurs after the thousand years.

I asked about Jesus preaching repentance, and Ecclesiastes which says all works will be judged, we will all give an account for ourselves. Jesus said likewise. They said this is for those who are around to face Armageddon. I really do not understand how they are able to sleep at night, while clearly denying the plain, unambiguous statements of scripture...

They teach that the people of Sodom will not be resurrected, because when God destroyed them it was a 'judicial judgment' that involved 'everlasting fire' ie everlasting destruction - ie no resurrection. I asked them about Jesus saying it would be more tolerable for the men of Sodom than for those in Capernaum (I think it was Capernaum) in the day of Judgment. After several minutes of hemming and hawing they concluded 'it is figurative' - Jesus was just saying 'supposing the Sodomites were to be at Judgment along with you, they would fare better because you folks are SO bad...'

Go figure.

I told them I want to hear more about Armageddon, it's timing, etc. They said they would come back and talk about that (they need more time to study and research...) as well as about 'a prophecy that is to be fulfilled right before Armageddon'. The Pioneer who was there asked if I had watched a video on JW.org about the history of the JWs. I said no I hadn't but will.

This will lead directly into the subject of the appointment of the Faithful and Discreet Slave in 1919, which is the heart of the matter and what I have been trying to steer things around to. I have downloaded pdf copies of old Watchtower publications that clearly declare the following:

1. Jesus returned in 1874.
2. 40 years of 'harvest' began then and ends in 1914.
3. 1914 is the Armageddon event, resurrection of the 144,000, inauguration of the Kingdom in actuality on earth, overthrow of all earthly government, establishment of Paradise, and the beginning of the Millennium.
4. (after 1914 came and went) 1917-1918 will see the destruction of Christendom, earthly governments, all Christians outside the JW band will either die or those that escape will accept Pastor Russell's teachings.
5. (after 1918 came and went) 1925 will see the resurrection of the old testament saints, Armageddon, the overthrow of earthly governments, beginning of the Millennium, etc.
6. Charles Russel was the faithful and discreet slave.
7. Anyone who denies Jesus returned in 1874, that the harvest work began then and ended in 1914, or who denies that CT Russell was the appointed slave over all the Master's belongings, was ignorant of God, not led by the Spirit, in darkness, part of Christendom, listening to Satan, deceived by demons, and spreading false doctrine.
8. The chronology of the Watchtower (ie Russell) is of God, is revealed directly by God only to those who are led by holy spirit, is only understood by the true church (JWs), is irrefutable, undeniable, set in stone, and JWs have more certainty than Noah did concerning the judgment of his day.

Now, combined with the current teaching that God came and inspected everyone and found the JWs to be 'teaching truth' (as per the Pioneer's words to me), and appointed them as the faithful and discreet slave, the big question now is:

Why would God reject the churches of Christendom for false doctrines and choose another group of Bible Students who were teaching false doctrines? And why did they continue to teach false doctrines after being appointed by God to dispense spiritual food in due season?

The question is not about changing doctrines, or them getting 'new light' or 'more light' and 'correcting errors', it's about the current teaching that God approved them. So why would God approve what no JW can accept or believe?

We also talked a bit about Harold Camping and his 2011 prediction (false). The JW said 'he tried to spin it, to say it really was fulfilled but nobody can see it or understand it, so you just have to have faith and trust me'.

I am reminded what the Lord said - 'by thy words thou shalt be justified, and by thy words thou shalt be condemned.'

Next week is going to be very interesting.

Re: Any experience with Jehovah Witnesses?
 

I meant JW. Sorry!

Re: Any experience with Jehovah Witnesses?
 

:heeheehee

Re: Any experience with Jehovah Witnesses?
 

A different approach might be in order.

Tell them you do not believe in the trinity. I would suspect they are unaware of Oneness theology.

Re: Any experience with Jehovah Witnesses?
 

I currently have an ongoing discussion with some JW's and they are not prepared for the Oneness concept as they are trained to confront Trinitarians.
One argument they use in justifying make their own translation of the Bible is it was written by Trinitarians and the trintarian translators perverted it with their bias.
When I explain I am not a Trinitarian and I fully believe God preserved His truth and I can prove and support the Oneness without feeling the need for a new translation that would have a Oneness bias, it kind of leaves them looking for a way to change the subject.

Re: Any experience with Jehovah Witnesses?
 

It has been a long time since I read a scholarly review of the NWT.

If I recall, it is nothing more than a KJV with modern words. The head of their church, ol' what's his name had final say for the project. He did not read a word of Greek.

Just for fun, as who composed the translation committee. What was the guiding principles of translation ? Which text did they use ? What were the qualifications of the translators ?

That might shine some light on their unique translation.