I visited a UPC in Springfield Va. It was a home missions work still I think or just after. Most of the members I think were black. The pastor was white

I see the family resemblance. You all look like your FATHER :)

:pirate:pirate GREAT ANSWER, BARB!! :pirate:pirate

*just reading through this thread*

Sanity is a subjective word Prax. ;) :D

I think the platform should mirror the church.

In other words, if you have a church that is multi-racial, that should be reflected on the platform, in committees, boards and involvement in every department.

Race itself shouldn't prevent a person from being involved or used, but people shouldn't be chosen for position based on their race solely either. They should be chosen because they're interested in serving, have the ability and meet the church guidelines for being involved.

I hadn't been to a General Conference since 1995 - 12 years ago - but it seemed to me that I saw a LOT more AAs there this year than I had ever noticed before.

As far as racism, sure it exists. Moreso in some places than in others. We ran into it on deputation and I was surprised at the number of churches in the south that had very few black people attending although there is a huge AA population in the South.

The topic came up in conversation and pastors said that the cultural differences sometimes made it difficult for the two to co-exist in the same church. I can see why this would be to some extent.

I think that there is probably less of this sort of thing when you get into Yankee territory. It's pretty much a non-issue in most churches where I have lived. Certainly here in the north-west where you have huge racial diversity and also in the northeast.

To start the process of blending races in churches, why doesn't someone here on AFF make a decision to leave the church where your family attends and find a similar church of another race in your area!

Easier said than done, isn't it?

We won't do it ourselves, but we want others to do it!

Those of you who brag about mixed cultures in your church, is your pastor black?

No. Speaking for myself, I wasn't bragging actually. It's just a fact.

"Bragging" was too strong a word, and for that I apologize. My main point is that I'm wondering how many mixed culture Apostolic churches have black pastors.

I agree and that is one thing I am so glad to see... In our church we have a very multi racial church and it is reflected in every part of our church... our church is actually most known for this and on our platform and on our boards sit... african americans and every other such nationality. We also have sitting on our platform during each service all of our staff pastors which consist of about 20 and in that number is a African American pastor, and Indian pastor, a Korean pastor a Spanish pastor and many others. It is awesome to see the diversity and know that every week we have services for them in their own language and they also come to the main service too and worship with everyone else...

I am very excited now too as just last night my husband and I were asked to start working with the music for the african church services and my daughter will be possibly leading the song service... Its awesome to be a part of this!

Interesting question. I think that there are probably many, particular in the areas I mentioned earlier.

The reason I say this is because there are areas now in North America where there is such huge racial cultural diversity - especially in the larger cities - that I can't see how it could be prevented.

The church should reflect the neighborhood where it's situated and when there has been such major immigration of people all over the world moving into cities in the U.S. and Canada if you're reaching your world at all then the racial diversity should be reflected in the church.

Just my thots and totally open to hearing what others have to say about this.

Sorry. I made my comment backwards. I think the platform should mirror the church. But I think the church will go only as far as the leadership is willing to go....

Again... why does it matter?

As I mentioned before this issue will always be an issue until people stop seeing color.

These things are not cured by "affirmative action" type notions that portray a feeling that all is not right until a "black person" is in this position or a "white person" is in that position.

Our 50/50 church just voted in the new pastor in May with a 92% "for" vote.

It seems that things would be more "kosher" in your eyes if one particular race were voted in over another. That... to me... seems like a racist position in itself.

As I said before... when we forget the color thing entirely and stop keeping count is when we move past this issue.

Reading this thread (the few times I have subjected myself to its content) I see no hope that we will reach this point anytime soon.

True, usually. There are dynamics that can mess that up. Like a deep-rooted power/control group, ideologies, beliefs, and belief systems in the church that can make things difficult for both the people and the pastor.

I'm not sure that we will ever get to the point where we don't see "color". Color really isn't the problem anyway imo. Culture can be more of a problem which we've found out pastoring a multi-racial church.

It's not as easy as we think for some of these cultures to be absorbed into the western church and it's not all OUR fault either. The will can be there and the desire can be there for this to happen, but in reality absorption has difficulties.

Sitting on my platform every Sunday night are two black preachers, one hispanic preacher, and three white preachers.

However, not a single one is up there because of their race and none are kept off because of their race.

We have more hispanics than blacks (slightly) but they are not offended by the mix on the platform.

I would have all-white, all-black, or whatever. The requirement is the calling and the consecration...not race.

The ministry is no place for racism or affirmative action. When a church has neither God's calling and placing is the deciding factor. The sin comes in if anyone is unwilling to train, work with, utilize men because of their race.

The lack of racism in our church is not because of its location. Our minorities run into this factor at work all the time.

I agree.

Truly color is not as much an issue as culture. When anyone has a blatant culture difference which they wish to maintain and display then assimilation into another culture is difficult and forced at best.

If I were to go to church in a place that had a very strong cultural leaning then I would always stick out as the one who just didn't quite "get it" in terms of their cultural practices.

I would have the choice of taking on their cultural practices, inflections etc or always be the different one. Even then it would never be the same.

People of differing ethnic backgrounds and yet similar cultural leanings should be able to move past color. It is easier to gain the "melting pot" scenario when dealing only with color. Culture is what causes portions of the mix solidify against others and maintain its own identity within the mixture.

Well said....

good job for both of you, amen, dt:scoregood:hypercoffee

As others have said, if you truly desire a multi-cultural church you should reflect it in who is in leadership positions. (board members, musicians, song leaders, teachers, ushers, etc.)

Which comes first, the leaders or the members? Those with a vision will pick the leaders first! JMHO

I'll be honest here, I'm NOT color blind. I used to love living in a melting pot, but now I'd opt for the salad bowl.

Are yall aware that Bro. Wayne Francis is the promotion director and was nominated for GYP at General Conference but with drew his name because he had not been ordained a year yet.

Since the 20's when most of the whites left the PAW and formed other groups the intergration has been very slow. I do NOT believe a 'white' & 'black' church is the will of God.

With the fruits and vegetables?

:pirateor is that fruits and nuts? :pirate

Your statement could be taken many different ways, care to clarify?
A multi-cultural church requires Godly wisdom and leadership, but it is a glorious sight to behold.

amen to that, dt:hypercoffee

Totally agree. :)

You are still keeping count.

All that should be reflected in leadership is a heart full of His Word & Godly wisdom.

There is no escaping quotas and keeping count with statements like the one quoted above. Mindsets like the one above put people in positions because of some imagined need to demonstrate equality in numbers.

Equality is demonstrated in moving beyond the numbers game.

Keeping count doesn't change the heart of the people any more than putting long sleeves on someone changes the inward condition of their heart.

One cannot demonstrate their equality with a census. One demonstrates their equality with a daily walk.

This boils down to some indwelling need to "prove" how un-racist one is by placing leadership into place that "reflects" the population of the church.

Any leadership put in place should "reflect" a love for the Word & Ways of God. Nothing more. Nothing Less. Any stipulations on leadership beyond that has lost view of the prize.

You are misunderstanding what I'm saying!

If God has called you to have a multi-cultural church, he will provide the leadership.

If you want more blacks in your church, look for some blacks that are qualified for certain leadership positions. If having more blacks is not a priority for you, don't worry about it! This doesn't mean you're racist!

Having blacks in leadership positions sends a message to other blacks in your congregation and community that you value them.

I'm sorry, but when I attend a church that is over 1/4 black and see NO blacks in leadership postions, it bothers me in my spirit!

No sir... I don't misunderstand you. I just disagree with you.

I don't think God provides people of certain colors for leadership. I think he provides people of certain character for leadership.

Of course... this stems from my opinion that God doesn't keep count either.

This is the same excuse that white churches have used for years to justify themselves. It's amazing that God has leaders in black churches isn't it?

You see, leadership is an art and it is learned. Leadership is the art of developing other people. As a leader, you determine who you will help develop into leaders. Character counts, but even character is developed and hopefully parroted from the pastor.

I'm not saying that you MUST put someone in a leadership position because of their color, but I am saying that if everything is equal, you should give the black person the advantage IF you are indeed reaching out to the black community!

Black leadership = I value the black community!

Surely if a church with a 1/4 of it's membership was black there would have to be qualified leaders among them?

One would think! :)

Amen and amen.

I remember as a 15 yr old young man, inviting my older friend and neighbor to church. She said "...when I go to church, I go to a black church."

I don't agree, but I understand why someone of 'color' wouldn't trust my white preacher and his church full of....









mexicans. :lol

Bishop Haywood was broken hearted of the defection of the white brethren in the 20's. In Bishop Golder's History of the PAW it was a hurt they never got over. That is a dark blot on the American Pentecostal history that in my opinion both groups white and black suffered because of it. Like the sin of segregation in this nation is a national blot.

We have one family of 'color'. By all appearances they are black. But they are from somewhere in S.A. I think Belize. Not too sure.

People naturally tend to go to church where they feel comfortable. Whether we like it or not, race is factor in that comfort level.

Elder:

Oh man, I wish I had said that!!! Very well put...