The way VM did it took all the wind out of the sails of the gossip mongers.

Now tell the truth, rks....

It's not the "only" way to leave the UPCI....

I'm educated enough to know it's not the only way to leave the UPCI....
(By the way....I was right and educated enough about the Jewish Revival and the minister who lied about it. Seems I remember getting a pretty harsh reaction from you when I made the statement. Due respect, you're as wrong with this statement now as you were back then.)

His leaving shows nothing about conviction....

It merely shows he's leaving because he can't get along with those he disagrees with....

He has conviction....

Wow....

Is conviction that rare among ministers now....

That we must point out and applaud certain ones who extol their own virtues....

Conviction....

So did many of the ones who left in '92....

But they were never applauded....

They were never given the status of "men of conviction" or "men of integrity"....

No matter how positive the thread....

The same certain bunch would find something to criticize....

BOSM, that AFF....

Charismatics....

Liberals....

:bubble :stirpot :thumbsup

Regardless of what side does it, I still think it's a cheap and easy way to go. And I still have anyone to disagree that the record would show the UPC as dropping the minister, rather than the minister leaving the UPC - as it should show.

If "they" equals me, then you should note I'm not taking a "cheap shot at ... VM." I have from the beginning disagreed with anyone who would leave by way of not paying their dues.

I disagreed with your former DS, KP, when he first stated he was leaving and mentioned that as a possible means of exit.

I have nothing against a person who wants to leave. By all means, leave if you want to. My disagreement is in the way they're leaving . . . not with the individuals.

I know that probably disappoints you and rks, but it's the method - not the man - I'm against.

Well we did see how you would spin it....

Facts are...

It is rejoicing time here cause another one of them hard line ultra cons is gone......

:bliss

He doesn't derserve ay shots, cheap or otherwise. He is leaving because of his convictions and in an honorable and Christian fashion. How can anyone do anything but applaud that. But, you're right, some will. And may have, didn't have time to read the whole thread, read the letter and jumped to the end......

A very wise thing for a man of his stature.

Coonskinner and those seeing things with their glasses half full have not made comment on what has been said by those who would disagree with VM but who have made positive comments.

I think ANY time a minister comes out and puts his intentions in writing it demonstrates a tremendous amount of courage.

I admire VM for doing this, I admire Brother Bernard for keeping the TX ministers informed of his intent. I also admire ministers not caught in the wave of emotion and to be sooooo concerned about losing or being kicked outside a circle of friends.

In fact, I think those pastors with churches of 200 or less are the ones who are going to suffer the most if they choose to leave, or if the organization is one they cannot depend on for ancilary resources or if they lose those friends close to them if they remain/leave. Now, isn't this the MAJORITY of pastors in the UPC who will feel the after-effects if I am correct?

I can think of one man right now, well known, good preacher, known as a hardliner, pastors a church of 200...if he leaves with his dear friends it will impact him and his reputation somewhat, if he stays it will have a similar effect. He is in a hard spot I would imagine as are many others.

The question I have for those that may feel as you do, is simply this: Will you also support the UPCI actions, when they put said pastors (those that officially resign rather than let their dues run out) "under question" and prohibit UPCI ministers from fellow-shipping them? As I have talked to the majority of pastors who have made the very tough decision to leave, this is the greatest reservation they have.

Incidentally, the attitude of those who are celebrating the departure of these men is very sad to me. Those that are leaving are not denigrating the brethren who are remaining in the UPCI, whom they have fellow-shipped with for years, they are not high five-ing their buddies and saying we're sure glad to be gone, now we can have revival etc. While they may feel that the corporate body of the UPCI has gone in a direction they are not prepared to go, they still consider the brethren their friends, and do not want to sever those relationships.

There may be a few loose cannons who try to divide families and friends because they refuse to "leave the UPCI," but I assure you that is not the norm. Yet it seems those who rejoice are willing to trample over years of labor, sweat, tears, ministry, prayers, and friendships by flippantly saying good riddance. IMO this attitude is far from Christ like.

My question is why would the UPCI put them "under question" for leaving the organization? Has this actually happened? As of yet, I've only heard about people fearing it could happen, not that it's actually happened.

If this were the case and the UPCI did something like this, it would most likely be from local district boards. In any case, to answer your question - no, I don't believe these men should be placed under question. If they feel they must leave because of the passage of Res 4, then so be it. Let them go.

This is what I don't understand. You're saying the UPCI would place a minister with the character of VM or Kansas Preacher under question . . . yet it allows the Jewish Revival perp to continue to serve as a district presbyter with no sanction for his lies. And there are other shady ministers allowed to do their deeds without being under question . . . yet VM by virtue of leaving the organization would be put under question and kept from fellowshipping with the UPCI?

I'm sorry, but I have trouble believing that would happen.

Hopefully lessons were learned from the AMF situation of many years ago.........In other words they have been known to do it in the past, and I have heard some things that are supposedly happening now with missionaries (I do not have verification so I can only say supposedly) that would lead me to believe it is possible again.

I sincerely hope they would not attempt it with men of integrity like VM, but part of me would not be surprised.

You know, watching the back and forth here is kind of puzzling I haven't seen anyone "rejoicing" over VM leaving the UPC fellowship. I haven't seen any "cheap shots" at the man either.

rks is the only one "rejoicing" as his dancing smilie seems to indicate. But what does he rejoice over? A discussion of VM's letter?

All due respect rks, it seems that you've jumped on this issue simply to say negative things about "here." I don't know you personally (obviously) so all I can really address is what you post. But "here" on an Internet discussion board is such a fluid landscape that your complaints appear to exist without a context.

A letter was posted, and people looked at it and commented. If a watermark on the paper itself had come through on the scanned image, no doubt someone would have an opinion about the watermark. Wondering about how big of a deal this was, I asked about the letter's distribution- but no answer has yet been offered.

The fact that only "nits" could apparently be "picked" from the letter itself tells me that none of the posters had anything negative to say about the writer himself. Perhaps I missed something, but I read thread.

I'm left to conclude that you have some very negative feelings about "here." If that's the case, give it a moment and "here" will soon be over "there" as the wheels of time and of the Internet inexorably grind all of our collective discontent into dust. There's probably a thread already set up to discuss that thought as well. :)

I thought the question was, "What was the content?"

I meant that we discussed Tampa and Tulsa...

I guess I'm missing something - I haven't really seen any rejoicing over anyone leaving.

Curious who is leaving and who is staying perhaps, but rejoicing? I don't think so.

I don't know what happened with the situation you speak of, however, I have heard of some pretty wild things done at AMF services - including UPC Ministerial licenses ripped up and stomped on, etc.

If that's the case, and people are trashing the UPC - by all means put them under question and prevent them from "ministering" at UPC-affiliated churches and events.

I don't believe VM or KP, nor others I've heard of leaving, would stoop to that level. I mean, KP's written some satire's about the UPC, but nothing nasty or mean-spirited against the organization.

I said before, I think someone was bored and just wanted some "BOSM" to write about on another forum. :bubble

:tease

:nahnah

Ok just out of curiosity I am reading this whole thread again to see just what I missed and so far I am on page 6 and the only negative comments so far was that the header sounded corny (hmmm thats real bashing now isnt it? ) and other than that one person asked why let the dues run out????

Let me see its gotta be here somewhere! I know I am missing something!

This is the first post on the entire thread I have found about anyone rejoicing over anything?????????????? HMMMMMM and this sits on page 12???

Ok may I kindly ask a question to RKS and Coonskinner? I am not meaning this with any disrespect but can you please show us where anyone is rejoicing over him leaving on this thread? Can you please show us where we are bashing or tearing down a brother? I have searched every page and I dont see anything except by RKS?

With all due respect,
AG

UUC.... Get real. People still right letters today. Because they want it read by the masses.

Otherwise how did it get out in the first place.

:noidea

Trust me, most people who are referred to on this forum know very quickly about it. And I would be willing to bet most of them could care less.

If they spent all their time chasing down every word that was spoken about them, well, let's just say, they generally have more important matters to deal with.

Someone very close to me has been spoken about on this forum in positive and negative ways. He knows. He could care less.

There are always going to be people around with opinions, and unless there is all-out slander taking place, most preachers have better things to do than worry about people who have no real connection to them, having opinions of them.

AG, it isn't there, I don't know what they are talking about. There have been a few slightly negative comments, but nothing on the scale that is being referred to. I think that they are just frustrated by some legitimately negative things that have been said on other threads and chose a poor example to take their frustration out on.

Am I missing something or did the comments from UltimateUltraConservative disappear?

This message has been deleted by UltimateUltraConservative.

Any posting up to 120 mins can be edited or deleted.

dizzyde, later tonight I will showcase for you the negatives here in this thread.

The rejoicing will be when they shed their Ultra Con cloak. Since the UPCI has stated for years. Leave and with a few short years you will be in the anything goes crowd.

Why do these UltraCon's think they are any better or stronger than the men who have left over the past 30 years...

How many men did they blast to others when those men left?

OK, I see.

Regarding your upcoming post, remember, I did not say that there were no negative comments, imo there were a few slightly negative comments. :jolly
I will await your showcase.

Boom I do understand there are negatives. But as I stated where are we rejoicing? Where are we bashing or anything of that sort? Yes there will be negatives on any thread. Its just frustrating for some to nit pick about every thread when there really isnt nothing that bad on it!

If you "showcase" my negatives, be sure to "showcase" by retraction/justification/disclaimer/apology as well.

Seg, I sure didn't have you in mind when I posted.

Agree To The Post...
 

Great comment! Fact is it is a two way street in life. Both sides can be guilty of lavishing insults to the other side. When we all come to the point that everybody is entitled to their feelings on issues and not mandated to clone ( whether it be conservative or liberal ) each other. Good Post Nathan!

Don't backpeddle too quickly

I just do not understand how some of the men leaving for their view on TV.

Is any different than those who left for standards, the Grace Doctrine or the Prosperity crowd.

I am not talking about the difference in the reason.

I am just stating that many of these men, voiced their opinions that those men would start to teach anything.

So why would the crowd leaving over the TV issue be any different.

I have a stronger belief that many of those leaving want to be big in the new organization from a political stand point.

How many HQ guys turned in their cards?

None you know why?

They have their high position.

It will be a soap opera at best watching this new group try and be relevant over the next few years....

I say within the next 3 years we will see one of them on TBN.

Yelling every 10 seconds like Steve Munsey! Go to the phone! Go to the Phone!

Jekyll

There is a difference in negative things being said and outright bashing or rejoicing in ones downfall!

I am still waiting on Booms response. I am not the only one who sees this Bro. I mean no disrespect and if anyone shows me or the others who are questioning this where.. then I will gladly eat my words.

Necker, this isn't one of your sharper posts.

There are several things that I may address individually, either this morning if I have time, or later, but for now, let me just say that you don't know any of these guys if you think they are going to end up like Steve Muncey on TBN.

And to think that the only reason HQ guys stay in is because of their "high" positions?

You certainly are cynical.

I totally agree with this post! These are sure not the TBN type and actually I dont think too many within our ranks are!

Your post seems to indicate that you think leaving the UPC, regardless of the reason, means men will change their doctrine and go bonkers.


This is really, really whacked.

I personally don't think that was a very "Christian" thing to say, especially coming out of a preacher. :trashcan

I think you missed the irony, CM.

He was speaking tongue-in-cheek.

My Bad !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Sorry, :begging:sorry

No harm done. :)

Are these guys in REBELLION???