Originally Posted by votivesoul (Post 1389323)

Hi, EB

I think a person can be both lying and mistaken at the same time. How?

If a person is wrong about a fact, they are mistaken. Once, however, they perpetuate the mistake as truth, they are, even if unintentionally, or without malicious motive, lying. Lying to whom?

Originally Posted by votivesoul (Post 1389323)

To the truth of the fact, and then, by extension, to the audience who is on the receiving end of the inaccurate information.

The whole air molecule thing is a mistake. It is inaccurate. It is not factual. To believe it is a mistake. So the audience who heard it that night, if they believed it, made a mistake. This doesn't mean they have lied.

But if they take that mistake, and run with it and repeat to others, never investigating the validity of the claim, then I think they become liars.

Originally Posted by votivesoul (Post 1389323)

So wherever Brother Stoneking heard it from (and as far as I can find there is no available source anywhere on the internet), was the beginning of the lie.

Originally Posted by votivesoul (Post 1389323)

For him to have believed it was simply a mistake on his part.

But to preach it as true, and to have been doing so for half a decade or longer without ever checking into it, turns the mistake into a lie.

Originally Posted by votivesoul (Post 1389323)

This doesn't mean Brother Stoneking sat down one day, fabricated the whole shredding air molecules thing in his mind, and then decided to make use of this fabrication with an intent to deceive. He himself has been duped. But now, he's passing that duplicity onto others, even if unknowingly. That's where the lie comes in.

Originally Posted by votivesoul (Post 1389323)

And people who tell lies are?

And as I wrote somewhere above, the testimony of one man is not true, according to Jesus. And if not true, then what is it, or rather, how should be taken? As unreliable, meaning one should put no weight upon it, meaning it is to be treated as a lie until it can be proven.

Originally Posted by votivesoul (Post 1389323)

Brother Stoneking said God spoke to him. That is the testimony of one man. It is unreliable and no one has to receive it. Everything after that was subjective and un-verifiable, again the testimony of one man (i.e. "It's happening...!").

Originally Posted by votivesoul (Post 1389323)

And worse, it ALL culminated, not in a doxology to God for what He had done in the shout, but with a lie about the human voice.

So I ask, why would God tell someone something and want them to relay it if the telling of what God said was going to culminate into a mass deception?

No lie is of the truth, right?

We can argue motives all day. I don't think Brother Stoneking's motives were evil or that his heart was in a place of falsehood, even though a falsehood was shared, and by direct inference, was, regardless of what anyone has to say contrariwise, attributed to God.

The human voice shreds air molecules. The devil is the prince of the power of the "air". When you shout, your are tearing his kingdom down. And oh, by the way, God told me He wants you to shout right now so He can deliver you.

If you reverse the order as I have done above, it comes to the same thing: God allegedly wanted them all to shout because the human voice shreds air molecules, thus destroying the prince of the power of the air's kingdom.

This was laid at God's doorstep, no matter what anyone says. And since many of the people, especially the youth, are programmed to take everything a preacher says as Gospel, how many people all over the movement now believe a lie?

About as many as believe a woman's hair has glory in it to the do the miraculous?

Originally Posted by Pressing-On (Post 1389351)

Enjoy your Palm trees.:thumbsup

Originally Posted by Evang.Benincasa (Post 1389356)

Sorry, but lying is telling an untruth knowingly to deceive. perpetuating a mistake as truth is telling an untruth knowingly to deceive, but in the case we are discussing you would have to prove that Brother Stoneking was personally confronted and corrected, and produce evidence for this. Saying he is a liar would have to be proven that he is indeed saying his stories with the intent to deceive his listeners. Amen?



No, they don't become liars because they believe what they heard to be truth. They are also mistaken, as they continue to perpetuate the incorrect evidence. If they are corrected, and shown the error with evidence, but continue to perpetuate the incorrect evidence even after they were convinced otherwise, then they are working from some sort of agenda, and therefore lying to turn others to their agenda.



No, not at all, because if Brother Stoneking took the information from some obscure source, old text book, magazine article, or didn't relay the information correctly, he is still mistaken, and therefore not knowingly trying to deceive his listeners.



No way, it is just never being corrected by a trusted peer or having the information proving otherwise. It is pure assumption to say Brother Stoneking preaching something for over decade required him to be corrected on it by someone else. Therefore it would be unprovable to call him a liar.



Sad, because he is duped, unknowingly presenting something incorrectly. He still isn't setting out to deceive. Wrong is wrong, and can be made right, lying is leading someone to destruction and is punishable by a millstone. You stated yourself that Brother Stoneking wasn't a false prophet, so he cannot be lying. Correct?



Again, lying is an attempt to deceive the listeners you would have to overturn you statement that you didn't believe Brother Stoneking to be a false prophet and now call him a liar, if all misinformation is lying.



But you were shown by n david in what context Brother Stoneking said "God spoke to him" was framed. Now, you have added an accusation that Brother Stoneking is knowingly lying on God?



VS, I should of started answering your post from the bottom up, because you used a lot of type to call Brother Stoneking a liar and a false prophet.

Which is your prerogative, because that is the way you see it. I don't agree with Brother Stoneking's stories which cannot be verified and people who know me know my views on those things. My daughter enjoys Brother Stoneking, as she was taught to eat the fish and spit out the bones. Yet, when I was pointing something out that I notice in one of his stories, she was quick to tell me "Dad, he is a believer!" Now, I don't know how you might take this, but she didn't mean Acts 2:38 or the Apostolic message, but that Brother Stoneking believes in the miraculous, having faith beyond what is contrary around you.

She is 14 years old and Brother Stoneking hasn't hurt her, because she has a whole church family and parents who love truth, and teach her to observe responsibly. But most of all, she is taught that not everything someone says that is incorrect is a lie, but people make mistakes, and sometimes try to teach mistakes as truth. Sometimes you will bump into someone who believe that Indians had a god named YHVH, you don't call them a liar, you listen to their information, check it out, when you find out it is incorrect, you deal with it as being incorrect. You don't call the person a liar.

Originally Posted by Esaias (Post 1389358)

If a teacher is continually mistaken about things, wouldn't they need to be sat down and do some studying before being considered a teacher again?

Originally Posted by Esaias (Post 1389354)

I don't understand something. The Bible commands us to 'shout unto God with the voice of triumph.' So then, why does a group of believers need a preacher to tell them 'God just now told me if you will shout and let er rip RIGHT NOW, satan's kingdom will be damaged'? Why the need for 'shredding air molecules'? Why not 'hey, the BIBLE says to do this in worship, so let's JUST DO IT'?

Originally Posted by Evang.Benincasa (Post 1389357)

What?

Originally Posted by David (Post 1389353)

A bit hypocritical, but not surprising. You defended JA from my posts condemning his attack on another minister; yet, you now defend with a poster who's attacked LS and called him a liar, a fraud, a stage act, etc.

This really is just about Stoneking with you. Were it JA or someone else, you would be all over the other poster's attack.

I will enjoy my palm trees, thank you. It's Friday and tomorrow is the first weekend of the college football season!

Originally Posted by Esaias (Post 1389354)

I don't understand something. The Bible commands us to 'shout unto God with the voice of triumph.' So then, why does a group of believers need a preacher to tell them 'God just now told me if you will shout and let er rip RIGHT NOW, satan's kingdom will be damaged'? Why the need for 'shredding air molecules'? Why not 'hey, the BIBLE says to do this in worship, so let's JUST DO IT'?

Are we so far gone from the heart of God that we need something 'extra' just to get us to do what is plainly written already? If a person will not obey the WORD, but only if they are pushed and prodded and excited by extrabiblical 'encouragements' that do not actually give better understanding of the Word, but are instead SUBSITUTED for the Word... doesn't that imply that person is backslidden in heart, and will not obey God unless it pleases them or tickles their fancy?

Originally Posted by n david (Post 1389364)

"There is unlimited potential in this auditorium. God spoke to me just about 30 minutes ago and told me that if you would do a certain thing, that He would totally deliver you from all fear and inhibitions.....With a little study, I found out that there is something about the human voice....

Again, LS did not say God told him anything other than God wanted to deliver some people from fear and inhibitions. That's it. God did not tell LS about satan's kingdom being damaged or sound waves displacing molecules.

I do agree with your premise, though. Especially after reading the vitriol aimed at LS for using that example. Of course, LS simply saying God told him something was enough for one person to label him a liar. So LS is going to lose either way. Jesus Christ Himself could appear with LS and nod at everything LS said, giving thumbs up signs, and some people here would still find criticism.

Originally Posted by Pressing-On (Post 1389369)

Oh my goodness!!! I LOVE YOU!!! :heeheehee

Thank you for this post. To get people involved in sensationalism for a response is too sad for words.

:yourock

Originally Posted by Pressing-On (Post 1389369)

Oh my goodness!!! I LOVE YOU!!! :heeheehee

Thank you for this post. To get people involved in sensationalism for a response is too sad for words.

:yourock

Originally Posted by Esaias (Post 1389370)

Actually, I am focused (here) more on the audience than on LS. Why would the audience need to hear what they heard, INSTEAD of just straight up chapter and verse here it is let's do it? I am hearing some reports about how 'the kids went away to camp and because of LS' message they came back and are really into worship etc'. My question is, why didn't they already understand biblical worship? Why couldn't they just be told what the Bible teaches, and be so enthralled with THAT ALONE that they conformed to the Word of God?

Originally Posted by n david (Post 1389364)

"There is unlimited potential in this auditorium. God spoke to me just about 30 minutes ago and told me that if you would do a certain thing, that He would totally deliver you from all fear and inhibitions.....With a little study, I found out that there is something about the human voice....

Again, LS did not say God told him anything other than God wanted to deliver some people from fear and inhibitions. That's it. God did not tell LS about satan's kingdom being damaged or sound waves displacing molecules.

I do agree with your premise, though. Especially after reading the vitriol aimed at LS for using that example. Of course, LS simply saying God told him something was enough for one person to label him a liar. So LS is going to lose either way. Jesus Christ Himself could appear with LS and nod at everything LS said, giving thumbs up signs, and some people here would still find criticism.

Originally Posted by n david (Post 1389376)

What's wrong with the part in bold? Have you never heard a message after which your brain clicked and you grasped something, which was there the whole time, but you hadn't yet connected the dots?

Originally Posted by Esaias (Post 1389371)

Ted Cruz is still not viable.

:heeheehee

Originally Posted by Pressing-On (Post 1389378)

David, He tied in the info he said he found into what and why God wanted this "certain thing" from them. When people I know came back from that conference with tears in their eyes, they spoke of this awesome finding that our "decibel level" (their exact wording) is what fights the prince of the power of the air. So, I am listening to this and thinking, "What?"

Originally Posted by Pressing-On (Post 1389378)

David, He tied in the info he said he found into what and why God wanted this "certain thing" from them. When people I know came back from that conference with tears in their eyes, they spoke of this awesome finding that our "decibel level" (there exact wording) is what fights the prince of the power of the air. So, I am listening to this and thinking, "What?"

Originally Posted by n david (Post 1389372)

Calling fellow ministers idiots who need brain surgery is pretty sad, too. :nod

Originally Posted by Esaias (Post 1389381)

Oh my, that's probably not good.

But then again, people often misunderstand what is preached to them...

Originally Posted by Esaias (Post 1389371)

Ted Cruz is still not viable.

:heeheehee

Originally Posted by Pressing-On (Post 1389383)

But was that a lie? :heeheehee

Originally Posted by Esaias (Post 1389381)

Oh my, that's probably not good.

But then again, people often misunderstand what is preached to them...

Originally Posted by n david (Post 1389388)

Pretty sure 100% of people who know the man would say Bro. Gleason is NOT an idiot, nor does he need brain surgery.

I've heard him preach several times, though I've never personally met him. I know relatives of his. He's not an idiot.

Originally Posted by n david (Post 1389382)

And yet that's not what LS said, is it? No, he didn't say that at all! Go back and watch or read the transcript, then please quote where LS uses "decibel level." You won't be able to because he didn't say that!

So you're bashing LS for something which he really didn't say. It's not his fault the people you know heard wrong.

Originally Posted by Pressing-On (Post 1389394)

David, Now we are getting into the troubling part. I didn't say Stoneking said that. That is what the young people got out of what he said!! That is their takeaway! And you wonder what upset me about this? Not only that, the leadership was encouraging it - the voice elevation being key to fight the enemy because research showed that the walls of Jericho fell because of the tremendous noise the Israelites made! I am sitting there thinking, "What?"

I don't normally talk about this type of stuff on this forum, but today I am just tired of it.

Originally Posted by Evang.Benincasa (Post 1389356)

Sorry, but lying is telling an untruth knowingly to deceive. perpetuating a mistake as truth is telling an untruth knowingly to deceive, but in the case we are discussing you would have to prove that Brother Stoneking was personally confronted and corrected, and produce evidence for this. Saying he is a liar would have to be proven that he is indeed saying his stories with the intent to deceive his listeners. Amen?



No, they don't become liars because they believe what they heard to be truth. They are also mistaken, as they continue to perpetuate the incorrect evidence. If they are corrected, and shown the error with evidence, but continue to perpetuate the incorrect evidence even after they were convinced otherwise, then they are working from some sort of agenda, and therefore lying to turn others to their agenda.



No, not at all, because if Brother Stoneking took the information from some obscure source, old text book, magazine article, or didn't relay the information correctly, he is still mistaken, and therefore not knowingly trying to deceive his listeners.



No way, it is just never being corrected by a trusted peer or having the information proving otherwise. It is pure assumption to say Brother Stoneking preaching something for over decade required him to be corrected on it by someone else. Therefore it would be unprovable to call him a liar.



Sad, because he is duped, unknowingly presenting something incorrectly. He still isn't setting out to deceive. Wrong is wrong, and can be made right, lying is leading someone to destruction and is punishable by a millstone. You stated yourself that Brother Stoneking wasn't a false prophet, so he cannot be lying. Correct?



Again, lying is an attempt to deceive the listeners you would have to overturn you statement that you didn't believe Brother Stoneking to be a false prophet and now call him a liar, if all misinformation is lying.



But you were shown by n david in what context Brother Stoneking said "God spoke to him" was framed. Now, you have added an accusation that Brother Stoneking is knowingly lying on God?



VS, I should of started answering your post from the bottom up, because you used a lot of type to call Brother Stoneking a liar and a false prophet.

Which is your prerogative, because that is the way you see it. I don't agree with Brother Stoneking's stories which cannot be verified and people who know me know my views on those things. My daughter enjoys Brother Stoneking, as she was taught to eat the fish and spit out the bones. Yet, when I was pointing something out that I notice in one of his stories, she was quick to tell me "Dad, he is a believer!" Now, I don't know how you might take this, but she didn't mean Acts 2:38 or the Apostolic message, but that Brother Stoneking believes in the miraculous, having faith beyond what is contrary around you.

She is 14 years old and Brother Stoneking hasn't hurt her, because she has a whole church family and parents who love truth, and teach her to observe responsibly. But most of all, she is taught that not everything someone says that is incorrect is a lie, but people make mistakes, and sometimes try to teach mistakes as truth. Sometimes you will bump into someone who believe that Indians had a god named YHVH, you don't call them a liar, you listen to their information, check it out, when you find out it is incorrect, you deal with it as being incorrect. You don't call the person a liar.

Originally Posted by votivesoul (Post 1389407)

Thanks for your insight and correction. I am taking it into consideration. God bless.

Originally Posted by votivesoul (Post 1389335)

n_david, I'm not angry with you, or anyone, or even Brother Stoneking. I have obviously disturbed your peace and made life hard for you with my comments.

Take away whatever validity they have or don't have, it still means I have offended you. We are called to peace. Unity is more important than being right all the time. Please forgive me for instigating your ire. I apologize.

Originally Posted by n david (Post 1389396)

Again....the bold is NOT what LS said, so why are you bashing him over it!?! Other than personal bias against the man for his HMH doctrine. Instead of bashing LS over something which he did NOT say, you should correct the young people who misunderstood what he said. That would be the correct thing to do, not bash LS for something the man didn't even say! Good God in heaven. Now a minister doesn't even have to say something to get beat up over what he was perceived to have said! smh

Look, I completely, 100%, disagree with LS' HMH stuff, but I won't bash him for whatever else he says just because of HMH. You've mentioned HMH several times here, which makes it appear this is nothing other than personal bias due to HMH.

I also vehemently disagreed with JA calling another minister an idiot who needed brain surgery. But I don't continue to hold it against him and color every other message through the bias of that one outburst.

Originally Posted by CC1 (Post 1388930)

No haterade here just sadness at what this guy does and how you syncophants defend it. There are plenty of moderate and conservative preachers I respect even though I don't agree with them. I put LS in the same camp I do the charismatic wacko's who preach about gold dust, pearls falling from the ceiling, everybody will get a Mercedes if they give an offering, etc, etc.

Unbiblical tales and preposterous applications of facts or science are simply tickling the ears of those looking for the sensational.

Originally Posted by Pressing-On (Post 1389344)

This actually makes no sense. Unless he is using this claim to solidify his point, biblically, why include it? Your "example" excuse is pretty weak.

Along with what else he said, it comes across as though he believes his point is biblically sound.

I believe we remember Segraves having to put out an article in the Herald after the magic hair business - "A Plea for Caution". It might be a good idea to write part two.

Originally Posted by Pressing-On (Post 1389418)

I put in all caps the words I am focusing on. That doesn't mean I am yelling at you. :heeheehee

Originally Posted by Pressing-On (Post 1389418)

Notice that his STUDY didn't take him to the Word of God to find out the real source from which the power is manifest - God Himself.

He also missed the source on the Magic Hair. That's problematic.

No matter how you slice it, this dog don't hunt.

Originally Posted by Evang.Benincasa (Post 1389430)

Brother Keith McCann, once said this, and it stuck with me, the Russian Orthodox priests were debating tassel length on their robes when the communist revolution started. So, I guess the Pentecostals were debating a comment made by Brother Lee Stoneking when they started to be placed in jail by the homosexual community??

Originally Posted by Evang.Benincasa (Post 1389430)

Brother Keith McCann, once said this, and it stuck with me, the Russian Orthodox priests were debating tassel length on their robes when the communist revolution started. So, I guess the Pentecostals were debating a comment made by Brother Lee Stoneking when they started to be placed in jail by the homosexual community??

Originally Posted by n david (Post 1389434)

I know what you were doing... You were shouting at me, trying to imply that I'm the debbil!

"And I THOUGHT to myself, what is it about SHOUTING that would CAUSE such a MANIFESTATION OF POWER? WITH A LITTLE STUDY, I FOUND OUT that there is SOMETHING about THE HUMAN VOICE, that WHEN IT SHOUTS, it SHREDS THE AIR MOLECULES."


Now, PO, I'm sorry but that's not right. You're grasping at anything to hold against this man.

First, you were upset over his use of an example. Then you were upset at him for something he didn't say, but which someone misunderstood. And now you're upset because he used a source other than the Bible to study.

Now, you did qualify it by saying he didn't use the Bible to show the source of real power. Really? If the youth who were attending NAYC don't know the source of power is God, then we have a much bigger problem than LS using a questionable example. Much, much bigger problem.

Besides, he DID use the Bible to lay a biblical foundation. And he did later repeat the power was in the Name. Also, he said twice that GOD would deliver them.

So, again, grasping at straws here. Dog doesn't hunt, etc. May want to figure out another reason to fault LS. :lol