Re: It's Your Fault People Are Homosexual
 

In fact, whether a person is born a sinner (as in born a liar, born a murderer, born a homosexual) is really a moot point because all of us must be born again.

However, to reach some struggling with homosexuality, trying to convince them they were not born predisposed to that sin would be next to impossible because they know their own thoughts, their own earliest thoughts.

It would be like telling a person who has intractable back pain that your pain is imaginary!

There are many people who STRUGGLE in this area who will tell you that they do not believe that they were born predisposed to homosexuality. They will tell you that there were outside forces beyond their control that contributed significantly to their situation.

Outside of Adam, there isn't a singular cause for any specific sin for all people in all situations.

Still, the biggest point, is getting the sinner to see their need for salvation and the struggler to see their need for deliverance.

Once and only once the need is acknowledged, is there any hope for salvation and/or deliverance.

Re: It's Your Fault People Are Homosexual
 

It would be bad.

How do you lead someone who is already righteous to Christ?

Re: It's Your Fault People Are Homosexual
 

The Bible says "Sin is the transgression of the law". It also says "whatsoever is without faith is sin" (which is actually a corollary to the first statement, since faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God, and since man is to live by every word of God, etc).

The Bible does not say "sin is a force distinct from sinful choices, actions, thoughts, etc." There are not two definitions of "sin", there is one: transgression of the law. Sin cannot be identified or recognized apart from the law of God identifying sin (Romans 7:7). Otherwise, anything could be made to be sin and there would be no objective standard for determining what is sin and what is not sin.

Romans 7, if pressed contrary to the whole of scripture to teach some force of sin independent of acts of sin, will nevertheless also teach that people aren't responsible for their sins if they agree with God that those acts are wrong (v20), and that all people are spiritually alive before learning right from wrong (v9), which are impossibilities.

Romans 6:16-19 clearly and unambiguously teaches the voluntary nature of sinning. Romans 7 must be understood within context. Romans 5 does NOT teach that "sin passed upon all men because of Adam", but rather that "death passed upon all men BECAUSE ALL HAVE SINNED."

Romans 7 is designed to show that sinners, who have voluntarily sold themselves to practice unrighteousness (Romans 6:16-19), are owned by sin and are legally bound to it as a woman is to her husband or a slave is to his master. The Jews under the old covenant did not obey God, and could never obtain righteousness through the deeds of the law, which pronounced death upon them. As Jews they were bound to it until death. But Christ died to free all under the old covenant and loose them to be married to another, that is, loose them to enter the new covenant. But under the old covenant, they could not obtain righteousness, because the commandments of God simply stirred up their own disobedient passions to which they yielded, thus bringing them into bondage to sin. As Romans 8 says, the law was weak through the flesh, but Christ's death accomplishes what the law could not do.

If Romans teaches an inborn "sin force" it also teaches that regeneration eliminates that "sin force" (Romans 8:1-11).

But the fact is, sin is the voluntary surrender of the will to passions and desires to do that which is forbidden by the commands of God. All are guilty, not because all are human, or have a degenerated nature (which we do, by the way), but all are guilty because all HAVE SINNED (Romans 3:23).

Re: It's Your Fault People Are Homosexual
 

So, you are saying that being truly righteous is bad?

God doesn't want us to be righteous? That wasn't His original intention for mankind?

Think about it... if Christ died to save sinners and justify the ungodly, it follows that being a sinner and ungodly is BAD. It also means that people OUGHT to have been righteous in the first place. God wanted righteousness, but we failed. God loves us, so He makes a way to reclaim us and make us holy and good.

Therefore, if say Adam never sinned, you are saying that would be bad! And that God ought to have punished Adam for being obedient! Can you not see how that line of thinking makes no sense and contradicts everything the Bible teaches?

Re: It's Your Fault People Are Homosexual
 

Edited: deleted because I misunderstood what I was replying to.

Re: It's Your Fault People Are Homosexual
 

The key part of what JD posted is "on their own."

Not understand how you get from JD's statement to Adam.

Please explain your belief that the Bible teaches we can be righteous on our own. IE without God ... God relegated to the role of water boy.

I must be missing something.

Re: It's Your Fault People Are Homosexual
 

That's not how I understood the exchange.

Yep. Adam and Eve sinned and because of that, we needed a Savior. Our own righteous is not enough to save us. We cannot, on our own, be saved.

Again, not how I understood JD's post. What doesn't make sense is your post, which appears to claim that man is good enough without God. That man is able to save himself by his own righteousness.

That contradicts everything I've read in the Bible.

Re: It's Your Fault People Are Homosexual
 

I said SUPPOSE someone was righteous on their own. I didn't say anyone WAS righteous on their own.

What "on their own" mean anyway?

OUGHT a person to do right and not sin? SHOULD a person do right at all times?

If a person SHOULD, then it necessarily follows that they COULD.

If however a person CANNOT do right, then it is preposterous to suggest they SHOULD do right. SHOULD you do that which you CANNOT possibly do?

Moral obligation includes ability, otherwise it cannot be obligation. Ought and should are terms denoting obligation.

Should an infant profess faith in Christ publicly before others? If yes, HOW? If no, WHY NOT? Would it not be because they CANNOT?

So then, obligation by its very nature presupposes ability.

Therefore, it follows necessarily that SINCE man SHOULD do right and not sin, at all times, therefore the ABILITY is there. And SINCE all have sinned and FAILED in their moral duty to God and their neighbor, it necessarily follows that all are GUILTY OF WILLFUL DISOBEDIENCE.

As for Adam, COULD he have obeyed God and not sinned? And if he COULD have obeyed God, then obviously he SHOULD have obeyed God and not sinned. And IF he had done that, then how could it have been bad? IT WAS THE VERY THING GOD WANTED HIM TO DO!

Re: It's Your Fault People Are Homosexual
 

So, we are guilty of Adam's sin? We are lost and sentenced to eternal death because Adam sinned? Look at what you said - "Adam and Eve sinned AND BECAUSE OF THAT we need a Saviour".

Did you repent of their sin? Are your actual sins irrelevant?

Where did I say that?

Where did I say that? Saved from WHAT? The punishment due to SINNERS? A man who never sinned has nothing to be saved from. We all need to be saved. Ergo, we have all sinned. And no sinner - ONE WHO IS GUILTY OF SIN - can escape punishment UNLESS PARDONED BY THE LORD ON THE BASIS OF THE ATONEMENT.

Have you ever read in scripture that God requires of anyone what they cannot actually do if they were willing?

Re: It's Your Fault People Are Homosexual
 

But even if this hypothetical person never committed a sin, they would still be sinful. Their very nature would be sunful.