You are right...I meant the greek word for SHAVON (er shaven)
xuraō
xoo-rah'-o
From a derivative of the same as G3586 (meaning a razor); to shave or "shear" the hair: - shave.

Wrong. NazaRITE...is a person who has this vow

Nazirite
naz´i-rīt (נזיר, nāzīr, connected with נדר, nādhar, "to vow"; ναζείρ, nazeír, ναζειραῖος, nazeiraíos, as also various words indicating "holiness" or "devotion"; the King James Version, Nazarite):

He was a nazirite because God told his mother that is what he was to be and not to cut his hair. This is in keeping with the nazirite vow,

Jdg 13:4 Therefore be careful and drink no wine or strong drink, and eat nothing unclean,
Jdg 13:5 for behold, you shall conceive and bear a son. No razor shall come upon his head, for the child shall be a Nazirite to God from the womb, and he shall begin to save Israel from the hand of the Philistines."
Jdg 13:6 Then the woman came and told her husband, "A man of God came to me, and his appearance was like the appearance of the angel of God, very awesome. I did not ask him where he was from, and he did not tell me his name,
Jdg 13:7 but he said to me, 'Behold, you shall conceive and bear a son. So then drink no wine or strong drink, and eat nothing unclean, for the child shall be a Nazirite to God from the womb to the day of his death.'"

Right....we are in agreement. The point was though that no razer shall come upon his head...why? Nazirites were to NEVER cut their hair. The issue is razer, head, uncut hair. The issue is not, when they are to cut their hair do they just trim it or shave it all off

I think that is Thayers, Strongs I have just says shear. When I am at home I can take a deeper look. Im really looking at a different word though
both words here refer to cutting hair so I am wondering if these words can't be used simply to mean cut but HAVE to mean only shave bald then what greek word would be used merely to trim the hair?

Normally I'd agree and in the past this was my position, however shorn comes from shear and a shear is a pair of scissors. This is an old english term and the term means to cut. When we shear or cut the wool of sheep we cut it all off...that's just the standard practice to get the wool for clothing and such.

Im not suggesting anything. Im being plain and factual....the greek word for shaven is "razor" and I noted how razor is used for nazirites to indicate their hair was not to be cut at all...not merely shaved.

I never said the verses in Cor had ANYTHING to do with the nazirite vow and if anyone thinks that they missed the point I was making

The problem I'm having with this is that Samson made no such vow. There were people who were Nazarites and took a vow. Samson wasn't one of those people. To me, it's kinda like telling your child they are married but you spoke their vows for them. They might be married, but they didn't speak any vows.

The rule when ending the vow was that their hair would be removed from their heads. If they merely trimmed it, would the vow have ended, or would it be seen as a halfway job?

It's possible that it's not Strongs, as I'm using an online version and it says that it's Strong's numbers that it's using, so I went by that.

As for cutting their hair without shearing it off, I wasn't able to find such an occurance, but neither can I find anyone using the restroom. Perhaps it was not something deemed important enough to mention in the Bible because, well, it wasn't important. In fact, there probably aren't many historical books that will speak about men cutting their hair in everyday fashion, unless it had relevance.

However, 'shorn' is still specific as to a type of cut, and not the mere cutting action alone. When Paul had his head shorn, his hair was removed in accordance to the vow. When Paul spoke about women having their heads shorn, I don't believe he was referring to the mere cutting of the hair in any length or fashion. It's specific, even in the English language, as to a type of cut. Ask any barber (although I don't think you are disagreeing with that specifically).


You are combining a noun object with an action verb. They aren't one and the same. Shears are scissors, not a shear. However, when someone or something is shorn, the hair or object being removed is just that.....removed. Whether it's done by shears or the edge of a tin can, the result is the same....the head is shorn.....the hair is removed.


The Greek word, according to my online site (www.crosswalk.com) says that 'shaven' in the Greek is 'Xurao', not 'razor', although it says it's derived from the same word as 'razor'.

I made the connection as it seemed that you were trying to connect the practice of the Nazarite vow to 1 Cor 11 in your statements comparing their not being able to cut their hair at all, and how you believed it meant the same in 1 Cor 11.

I would like to know what would have happened had someone who took a Nazarite vow just trimmed a little off instead of removing all of their hair. That's not a subject I'm too familiar with. If you can find anything on that, I'd be interested in reading on it.

I do find it interesting, however, that when Samson fell, it was due to his hair being removed, not just trimmed. She shaved off the seven locks of his head.

And I just discovered in doing a little search that the Nazarites weren't told not to put a razor to their hair, but to their heads. I think this is significant as it would suggest that putting a razor to their heads would indicate the removal of hair, not just the mere cutting of it.

Samson told Delilah that if his head were shaven, he would be like any other man. Does this mean that if she'd just trimmed it, he would have retained his strength? I don't know.

It's also possible that the custom of those people was to let it grow until shaving was necessary. There doesn't seem to be any gray area mentioned in regard to either men or women. There is either uncut or long mentioned, or shaved or shorn mentioned. I don't know why that is.

It's too bad that I'm working so much in the next week and then taking a vacation, but when I return, I'd like to study on this a little more. Sorry if this post is jumping from point to point also....I just got home a couple hours ago after working 15 1/2 hours!

Prax, if you come across any info that I can study, I'd appreciate you supplying me with links or whatever. Thanks.

Regardless it was a nazirite vow...his hair was to be uncut and he was not to drink strong drink. God even said he was to be a nazirite. Either way this is totally irrelevant to my point

Again you are missing the point. I never said other wise. I said the vow was ended by shaving all the hair off...that has nothing to do with my point. I am not saying one thing at all about the ending of the vow. Im talking about DURING the vow...the hair is to be uncut. To indicate that the text says no razor was to touch his head. Again this is not relevant to what I said. I find it an interesting topic, but this is really not the reason I brought it up...how the vow was ended

I was not issuing a challange and making an argument of silence. I was asking a sincere question if anyone knew what OTHER word would be used in this case. Im not sure there is one...

Shorn is the past tense of shear. Shear is an verb form of the noun shears which is simply a pair of scissors. Not every use of the scissors on the head was with the intent to shave it all off. We have to also look at it's use and context. Obviously with sheep it was to cut all the wool off, we know that from every day useage and knowledge. That's just how they did it with sheep. They did not give sheep hair cuts. They cut the wool to get it for making fabric

Yes we know that from the context and the fact that it was a vow so it was obviously the nazirite vow

You are welcome to believe that. Im simply showing a possibility. Why would Paul use two different words to mean the same thing? Shaved bald? That does not make sense

Shorn is an old english word. We have to look at it as I already did. It comes from Shear which is the verb form of the noun for shears....which in todays vernacular are a pair of scissors. Typically today we use it exclusively for sheep. I have known people that went to the barber shop for a hair cut down to their bald head and they still don't call it shearing. "I want my head sheared"...they might say "shaved"...the other issue is that again we are looking at translations. If sheared means shaved then why two different words?

As I pointed out, the greek for the word shaved there means a razor and I illustrated the point by refering to a nazirite such as Sampson where their hair was to remain uncut till the vow was over with. TO say that the text says a razer was not to touch his head at any time. The nazirite let his hair grow.

The dictionary does not give one definition of sheared or shorn to mean "like a sheep with all the wool shaved off".

shear Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation verb, sheared, sheared or shorn, shear·ing, noun –verb (used with object)
1.to cut (something).
2.to remove by or as if by cutting or clipping with a sharp instrument: to shear wool from sheep.
3.to cut or clip the hair, fleece, wool, etc., from: to shear sheep.
4.to strip or deprive (usually fol. by of): to shear someone of power. 5.Chiefly Scot. to reap with a sickle.
6.to travel through by or as if by cutting: Chimney swifts sheared the air. –verb (used without object)
7.to cut or cut through something with a sharp instrument.
8.to progress by or as if by cutting: The cruiser sheared through the water. 9.Mechanics, Geology. to become fractured along a plane as a result of forces acting parallel to the plane.
10.Chiefly Scot. to reap crops with a sickle. –noun
11.Usually, shears. (sometimes used with a singular verbhttp://cache.lexico.com/dictionary/g...una/thinsp.png) a.scissors of large size (usually used with pair of). b.any of various other cutting implements or machines having two blades that resemble or suggest those of scissors.
12.the act or process of shearing or being sheared
.a shearing of sheep (used in stating the age of sheep): a sheep of one shear.
14.the quantity, esp. of wool or fleece, cut off at one shearing. 15.one blade of a pair of large scissors.

it IS the same word. Nouns can be verbs that are derived from the same word. Shears are scissors...the verb form then is to apply those scissors.

Uh...I was not saying the greek word is razor. I was saying the greek word literally means a razor....

In fact Zodhaites word studies says the antonym interestingly enough is Komao...the greek word for long used in the same text which literally means "to let the hair grow long"

I was pointing out the greek word for shaven means literally a razor and how the text tells us that they were NOT to cut their hair "no razor shall touch his head"...I was NOT saying women were nazirites or there was some connection. I was pointing out how the word razor is used with hair
he would not have finished the vow,

To end the nazirite vow they were to shave the hair ALL off

It is an interesting question.

Num 6:1 And the LORD spoke unto Moses, saying,
Num 6:2 Speak unto the children of Israel, and say unto them, When either man or woman shall separate themselves to vow a vow of a Nazarite, to separate themselves unto the LORD:
Num 6:3 He shall separate himself from wine and strong drink, and shall drink no vinegar of wine, or vinegar of strong drink, neither shall he drink any liquor of grapes, nor eat moist grapes, or dried.
Num 6:4 All the days of his separation shall he eat nothing that is made of the vine tree, from the kernels even to the husk.
Num 6:5 All the days of the vow of his separation there shall no razor come upon his head: until the days be fulfilled, in the which he separateth himself unto the LORD, he shall be holy, and shall let the locks of the hair of his head grow.
Num 6:6 All the days that he separateth himself unto the LORD he shall come at no dead body.
Num 6:7 He shall not make himself unclean for his father, or for his mother, for his brother, or for his sister, when they die: because the consecration of his God is upon his head.
Num 6:8 All the days of his separation he is holy unto the LORD.
Num 6:9 And if any man die very suddenly by him, and he hath defiled the head of his consecration; then he shall shave his head in the day of his cleansing, on the seventh day shall he shave it.
Num 6:10 And on the eighth day he shall bring two turtles, or two young pigeons, to the priest, to the door of the tabernacle of the congregation:
Num 6:11 And the priest shall offer the one for a sin offering, and the other for a burnt offering, and make an atonement for him, for that he sinned by the dead, and shall hallow his head that same day.
Num 6:12 And he shall consecrate unto the LORD the days of his separation, and shall bring a lamb of the first year for a trespass offering: but the days that were before shall be lost, because his separation was defiled.
Num 6:13 And this is the law of the Nazarite, when the days of his separation are fulfilled: he shall be brought unto the door of the tabernacle of the congregation:
Num 6:14 And he shall offer his offering unto the LORD, one he lamb of the first year without blemish for a burnt offering, and one ewe lamb of the first year without blemish for a sin offering, and one ram without blemish for peace offerings,
Num 6:15 And a basket of unleavened bread, cakes of fine flour mingled with oil, and wafers of unleavened bread anointed with oil, and their meat offering, and their drink offerings.
Num 6:16 And the priest shall bring them before the LORD, and shall offer his sin offering, and his burnt offering:
Num 6:17 And he shall offer the ram for a sacrifice of peace offerings unto the LORD, with the basket of unleavened bread: the priest shall offer also his meat offering, and his drink offering.
Num 6:18 And the Nazarite shall shave the head of his separation at the door of the tabernacle of the congregation, and shall take the hair of the head of his separation, and put it in the fire which is under the sacrifice of the peace offerings.
Num 6:19 And the priest shall take the sodden shoulder of the ram, and one unleavened cake out of the basket, and one unleavened wafer, and shall put them upon the hands of the Nazarite, after the hair of his separation is shaven:
Num 6:20 And the priest shall wave them for a wave offering before the LORD: this is holy for the priest, with the wave breast and heave shoulder: and after that the Nazarite may drink wine.
Num 6:21 This is the law of the Nazarite who hath vowed, and of his offering unto the LORD for his separation, beside that that his hand shall get: according to the vow which he vowed, so he must do after the law of his separation.

Jdg 16:19 And she made him sleep upon her knees; and she called for a man, and she caused him to shave off the seven locks of his head; and she began to afflict him, and his strength went from him.

It indicates their hair was uncut until the vow was fullfilled. This is how I was using the word. He was not to cut the hair at all, shaved, trimmed whatever. I was not trying to prove this word means "trimmed" I was showing it means cut...

Yes, notice "and shall let the locks of the hair of his head grow"...he was not to cut the hair at all, shaved, shorn, trimmed, cut...nothing it was to continue to grow untouched.

Of this text my NET bible commentary has an interesting note

14 sn There is an interesting parallel between this prohibition and the planting of trees. They could not be pruned or trimmed for three years, but allowed to grow free (Lev_20:23). Only then could the tree be cut and the fruit eaten. The natural condition was to be a sign that it was the Lord's. It was to be undisturbed by humans. Since the Nazirite was to be consecrated to the Lord, that meant his whole person, hair included. In the pagan world the trimming of the beard and the cutting of the hair was often a sign of devotion to some deity (see W. R. Smith, The Religion of the Semites, 327-35).

Gills
there shall no razor come upon his head; he might not shave his beard, nor cut off his locks, and shave his head, nor cut short his locks with a pair of scissors, nor any with anything by which the hair may be removed, as Ben Gersom; nor pluck off his hair with his hands, as Maimonides says (x); but let it grow as long as it would during the time of his separation, which is expressed in the latter part of the verse:

Keil and Deutsch
Secondly, during the whole term of his vow of consecration, no razor was to come upon his head. Till the days were fulfilled which he had consecrated to the Lord, he was to be holy, “to make great the free growth (see Lev_10:6) of the hair of his head.” The free growth of the hair is called, in Num_6:7, “the diadem of his God upon his head,” like the golden diadem upon the turban of the high priest (Exo_29:6), and the anointing oil upon the high priest's head (Lev_21:12). By this he sanctified his head (Num_6:11) to the Lord, so that the consecration of the Nazarite culminated in his uncut hair, and expressed in the most perfect way the meaning of his vow (Oehler). Letting the hair grow, therefore, was not a sign of separation, because it was the Israelitish custom to go about with the hair cut; nor a practical profession of a renunciation of the world, and separation from human society (Hengstenberg, pp. 190-1); nor a sign of abstinence from every appearance of self-gratification (Baur on Amo_2:11); nor even a kind of humiliation and self-denial (Lightfoot, Carpzov. appar. p. 154); still less a “sign of dependence upon some other present power” (M. Baumgarten), or “the symbol of a state of perfect liberty” (Vitringa, obss. ss. 1, c. 6, §9; cf. Num_6:22, Num_6:8). The free growth of the hair, unhindered by the hand of man, was rather “the symbol of strength and abundant vitality” (cf. 2Sa_14:25-26). It was not regarded by the Hebrews as a sign of sanctity, as Bähr supposes, but simply as an ornament, in which the whole strength and fulness of vitality were exhibited, and which the Nazarite wore in honour of the Lord, as a sign that he “belonged to the Lord, and dedicated himself to His service,” with all his vital powers.
(Note: In support of this explanation, Oehler calls to mind those heathen hair-offerings of the Athenian youths, for example (Plut. Thes. c. 5), which were founded upon the idea, that the hair in general was a symbol of vital power, and the hair of the beard a sign of virility; and also more especially the example of Samson, whose hair was not only the symbol, but the vehicle, of the power which fitted him to be the deliverer of his people.)


I just had an interesting thought too...why should we assume Paul was completely bald? Im sure he cut it short, but I don't see why it necessarily means bald ie noting but skin.

:santathumb

I think as long as his hair was cut he lost his strength. If he only trimmed his hair he broke the vow, not ended it...he violated it.

Here is another interesting thing, this word used for shave, shave off and even bald is used in reference to trimming the corners of the beard off rather than removal of the entire beard

Lev 21:5 They shall not make baldness upon their head, neither shall they shave off the corner of their beard, nor make any cuttings in their flesh.

AMP Lev 21:5 The priests [like the other Israelite men] shall not shave the crown of their heads or clip off the corners of their beard or make any cuttings in their flesh.

See what I am saying is that the word "shave" does not necessarily have to mean "all off"

Also I am wondering what locks here means since he has seven locks...was he completely shaved or where seven groupings of hair chopped off?
machlâphâh
BDB Definition:
1) braid, lock, plait
1a) of hair

This is why I bring up this possibility linguistically/grammatically. It isn't that cut and dried as either side hopes to have it

It's ok. I just wanted you to realize certain issues I was not trying to raise.

OK

Just responding to this part of the post, as the remainder I didn't have issue with.

Shorn and shaven, while closely similar, are not necessarily the same thing, although they could be. Shorn refers to the removal of all the hair by whatever means it takes and shaven is the removal of hair with a razor (I'm not sure what else would be used to shave).

If Paul only said 'shaven', there is a loophole for those women who removed their hair without shaving it off. Why didn't he just use shorn? I don't know. I wasn't there. ;)

One can have their head shorn and still have hair present, although it would be stubble. One cannot have their head shaven and still have stubble. I think that's the difference.

Thanks for the verses and commentary. Very interesting and something I will be looking further into. But I'm still trying to find out why there seems to be a black or white area only. Either they cut it all off or they didn't cut at all.

I also don't see how this ties into 1 Cor. 11, if it even does, but it's interesting all the same. Because if it did tie in, then there are no gray areas. This would mean (to me) that women shouldn't cut their hair at all, and men, unless they had a vow, would have to have their heads shorn or shaven all the time. Yet I don't find in my readings thus far that Jewish men wore their hair that way in Biblical times. It seems that their culture had a definition for what was long hair on a man.

Too much thinking for my brain at the moment.

As for the post above, I don't assume Paul was bald, as scripture never says that. He had his head shorn after the vow, but that doesn't mean his head was shaved bald. I've heard people claim it was, as you also have heard.

When looked at in context, the usage of the word is correct. What's being shaven? The corner of the beard. When it was shaven, while hair remained on the face, it was removed from the corner of the beard. So yes, it does indicate complete removal from the area being spoken of.

I always thought he just had curly hair and it was probably like dreads, since he never cut it his entire life. How Delilah could shave those locks off his head without his knowing is beyond me!

It does appear from scripture that all of his hair was removed, but since I wasn't there, that is just a picture I have of the situation.

Prax, you're smart. Build us a time machine to we can go there and find out what really happened!!

:beatdeadhorse:beatdeadhorse:beatdeadhorse :lalala :violin:violin:nobodycares:nobodycares

Now, you've went and done it! Started a whole thread that is only going to be filled with people of the same mind set, with no opposition from the other side...and you are going to say it is because the conservative side has no answer.

Prax, this is not even worth discussing. You know that the conservative side can come up with just as many things like this as can the liberal...saying, "This doesn't make any sense because..." and comparing it in a way that does just what you are doing...using a stretch of a modern tradition (wearing the hair up) to make what one believes to be far more than just tradition (or a liberty) look somehow suspect.

You want me to add in some more easy attacks I've seen over the years on the conservative position? Easy...

1) If it is okay for a woman to wear panty hose (which colors the leg), why can't she wear makeup?

2) If it is okay for a woman to cut the hair on her armpits and legs, why can't she do the same on top of her head?


Now, how about some just as silly the other way...

1) If it is okay for a woman so show a little skin above her knees, why can't she show a little skin above her waist?

You know...it's all just skin anyway...

2) If it is okay for a woman to bare her upper arm, then how about her shoulder, and if it okay for her to bear her shoulders, why not let her uncover a little of her chest?

You know...it's all just skin anyway...

3) If it is okay for a woman to show a little of her leg, why can't she show a little more even?

You know...it's all just skin anyway...


But, consider the absurdity of it. Even the court system has made it very apparent that there is a difference.

The handling of the veil in the scripture is obviously somewhat changed from the old to the new. The veil is more of a significant thing in itself than a covering for skin. The covering of the HEAD is what is significant in Scripture, not the neck or the face. And obviously, a man's hair covers his head somewhat...whereas a woman's hair covers it even more if it is uncut. I have actually heard preachers use what you are saying in reverse. They teach a woman to pile her hair on top of her head to cover it EVEN MORE than the man does with his short hair. Now that is just as silly as the other side. IT'S SYMBOLISM! PERIOD! SYMBOLISM! Don't overdo it, don't overread it. It's purely symbolism.

The issue is not DOES it symbolize, WILL it symbolize, etc.

The issue to be debated is whether it is a) not required, b) required, c) just a good idea that should be followed, but not heaven or hell if one doesn't. That's the real debate. All of this other is just a smoke screen.

That is still redundant. Why not just say not to shorn you rhear...whatever means would also cover razer

if Paul only said shorn he covers it all...this means the translation is "for if her hair be removed completely off her head bald by any means or if her hair be completely removed bald by a razer...." that does not make sense

But if it's wrong to cut the hair to stubble why even bother mentioning cutting it till it's shiny bald? It's redundant....then again either way it's redundant. If razer means to cut, it's still redundant.