Apostolic Friends Forum - **Herald Begins Apostolic Identity Campaign **

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Re: **Herald Begins Apostolic Identity Campaign **

Quote:

Originally Posted by Innocuous (Post 700860)

But we're not talking about all those other guys, we're talking about an author who published in the official organ of the UPCI. So you have to wonder what they mean by what they say.

Isn't external appearance a well developed system of doctrines that are mentioned in the AOF of the UPCI? Are we cheery picking doctrines here or is it all inclusive?

My personal experience has been that "Apostolic" includes holiness standards and the term "apostolic identity" is often code for holiness standards.

Is that what this author is saying here?

Okay, let's take these two lines from the end of the first post and substitute "holiness standards" for "apostolic identity" :

1)

Quote:

The youth of the apostolic movement must not lose their apostolic identity because we failed to teach them the truths that have defined God’s people since the Day of Pentecost.

Apostolic identity or "holiness standards" = the truths that have defined God’s people since the Day of Pentecost.

We know that certain "holiness standards" of today would never have been taught "since the day of Pentecost". The clothing styles and dress are different. There may be some principles we can take from the apostles about modesty in cost and propriety of the clothing we wear but no rigid rules. Do we even want to speculate that holiness standards were taught on the day of Pentecost. I feel fairly certain the author wasn't including "standards" in his definition of apostolic identity in this line.

2)

Quote:

To paraphrase Campbell: Our survival as an apostolic movement depends on each new crop of apostolics understanding and assimilating our commitment to the Apostles’ doctrine.

Not so sure about this line unless we stick with the author's definition he used in the prior line. I suppose outer holiness standards could be implied here if that's how you want to read it. He would have to be making holiness standards on par with the Apostles' doctrine instead of recent church tradition stemming from the two centuries.

Re: **Herald Begins Apostolic Identity Campaign **

Quote:

Originally Posted by mizpeh (Post 700878)

Okay, let's take these two lines from the end of the first post and substitute "holiness standards" for "apostolic identity" :

1)
Apostolic identity or "holiness standards" = the truths that have defined God’s people since the Day of Pentecost.

We know that certain "holiness standards" of today would never have been taught "since the day of Pentecost". The clothing styles and dress are different. There may be some principles we can take from the apostles about modesty in cost and propriety of the clothing we wear but no rigid rules. Do we even want to speculate that holiness standards were taught on the day of Pentecost. I feel fairly certain the author wasn't including "standards" in his definition of apostolic identity in this line.

.

Are you implying that holiness codes were not a part of the early church? According to the UPCI, the doctrines of hair and jewelry and such were taught to the early church and they're simply obeying what the scripture literally says to do. I went to a UPCI Bible College and was taught that holiness standards have been a part of holiness since the days of Moses.

Re: **Herald Begins Apostolic Identity Campaign **

Quote:

As important as it is to heed Campbell’s warning and advice, it pales in comparison to the tragedy of even one generation failing to teach apostolic truth to the next generation. Someone wisely said, “Freedom is never more than one generation away from extinction.” While we know that the church Jesus built will never become extinct, we must not make the mistake of thinking that the body of apostolic truth found in the New Testament “runs on auto-pilot.” Jesus built His church but He placed the responsibility of perpetuating apostolic truth squarely and firmly in the hands of His apostles and by extension to all His followers.

Apostolic Identity = the body of apostolic truth found in the New Testament

This could also include holiness standards but is not limited to that definition alone. Okay you made your point with me. :)

Re: **Herald Begins Apostolic Identity Campaign **

Quote:

Originally Posted by Innocuous (Post 700881)

Are you implying that holiness codes were not a part of the early church? According to the UPCI, the doctrines of hair and jewelry and such were taught to the early church and they're simplying obeying what the scripture literally says to do. I went to a UPCI Bible College and was taught that holiness standards have been a part of holiness since the days of Moses.

But did the apostles teach our specific and exact holiness standards of dress? or a principle?

Re: **Herald Begins Apostolic Identity Campaign **

Quote:

Originally Posted by Innocuous (Post 700881)

Personally, I think the UPC adds to the word of God when it comes to outer standards of holiness.

Re: **Herald Begins Apostolic Identity Campaign **

Quote:

Originally Posted by Innocuous (Post 700874)

On the first statement above, if I take it face value then I'm left confused because he doesn't define what is being taught in terms of what is 'apostolic'.

As for your second statement, I doubt that only 'some' would include standards as being inclusive in 'apostolic' teaching and it's not forcing anything to assume or at least wonder about what they mean.

For most holiness oriented OP's the standards are inseperable from the other distinctive doctrines. They go together in their minds just as much as cheese goes with a cheeseburger. If you don't have cheese, then you don't have a cheeseburger. In the minds of most holiness folks if you don't have standards then you aren't apostolic. "The Truth" is another code word for this.

Since holiness is a part of the AOF of the UPCI and this appears in the official organ of the UPCI and I know the context swirling around the UPCI in regards to re-affirming "holiness" that's going on currently then I can only assume that this author is including holiness standards in his view of 'apostolic teachings'. To assume otherwise seems a stretch to me.

OK. Let me bring it back to square one for a sec, because I think we're getting a bit sidetracked for a sec.

I know you jumped in late to this part of the convo... but you're drifting from the central issue I was referring to here.

If you follow the flow of the conversation above you'll see : Edward asked why do we say Apostolic rather than Pentecostal. Mizpeh answered that Apostolic referred to the doctrinal distinction, while Ed stated that Apostolic actually means holiness standards. My point was that (1) Apostolic refers to the distinctions in doctrine (Oneness/Jesus name baptism) that separate us from Trinitarians who also might be considered Pentecostals... and (2) there are many non-UPC folks who also consider themselves Apostolic, based on Godhead/Baptism doctrines, NOT based on "holiness standards". So clearly "Apostolic" does not mean "holiness standards" because their are groups that refer to themselves as "Apostolic" and do not have UPC-type standards.

That is what started that part of the conversation (what "Apostolic" means vs "Pentecostal"), including my response to what was being said. Wheter this author is talking about standards as part of what "Apostolic Identity" means is actualy a digression from what my post was referring to.

Re: **Herald Begins Apostolic Identity Campaign **

Quote:

Originally Posted by mizpeh (Post 700889)

But did the apostles teach our specific and exact holiness standards of dress? or a principle?

According to what I was taught in Bible school, it was both. In some cases the standards were reaction to the culture of the time (1950's) and in other cases it is alleged to be literal application of a literal interpretation of scripture.

I think their hermeneutic is inconsistent, but that's another discussion I guess.

Re: **Herald Begins Apostolic Identity Campaign **

Quote:

Originally Posted by rrford (Post 700855)

For what it is worth, and lest anyone misunderstand, this was not some new "campaign." From my recollection, the PH does one issue per year devoted to Education.

Hey, rrford!!! You are right, they do that once a year. :thumbsup

Re: **Herald Begins Apostolic Identity Campaign **

Quote:

Originally Posted by Innocuous (Post 700896)

I agree with you. You've changed my mind by making me reread that article again and with the points you've made to TR! But....I wouldn't limit what the author means by apostolic identity to strictly holiness standards as some folks (Ed!!!) do. :)

Re: **Herald Begins Apostolic Identity Campaign **

Quote:

Originally Posted by TRFrance (Post 700894)

I understand all that. But my question is what does the author, and the UPCI, mean by 'aposolic' in the context of this article and this issue of the PH? It doesn't matter what you and me and anybody else thinks 'apostolic' means, it matters what the author meant.