An Uncertain Sound
 

1 Corinthians 14:7-9 (King James Version)

7 And even things without life giving sound, whether pipe or harp, except they give a distinction in the sounds, how shall it be known what is piped or harped?

8 For if the trumpet give an uncertain sound, who shall prepare himself to the battle? 9 So likewise ye, except ye utter by the tongue words easy to be understood, how shall it be known what is spoken? for ye shall speak into the air.

Since the passage of Res 4, many churches are clamoring for the chance to advertise on tv. Mind you, this does not mean that they are going to preach, just advertise.
I wonder just how many members who have bought tv's since the passage? After all, to see the ads one must have a box to do so, unless you watch for it on some publicly posted set.
Wonder how many preachers who say that they upheld the tenets of the org, yet own tv's?
UPC issued an uncertain sound when they passed this sticky resolution.
The manual does not allow for ministers to own a tv set. Nor does it reccomend to members that they own one. Yet, an uncertain sound was indeed issued when the media of tv was permitted for use amongst apostolic churches within the org.
I believe that it will be a matter of time before all restrictions against its use are removed.
The carnality of tv is so evident to any who watch, yet the church runs headlong after it. It is akin to Lot pitching his tent towards Sodom. He became so entranced with the sin that he moved in amongst them.
When the angels tried to get him to leave, he became a mocker. He had to be forcibly dragged out before his carnal carcass roasted along with the rest of the filth that God saw fit to destroy.
The story didn't end there. It wasn't long before an incestuous union with his daughters produced two vile young men who would later torment the children of Abraham. One was to become God's washpot. The other wasn't even useful for that. He was bent on ultimate destruction.
Lot was likely a good, church going individual. When Abraham was told to leave his country and family, he took Lot. Lot had to have attended services of sorts with Abraham. Yet, we find that even Abraham was worried about him for he pleaded with God to save Lot, indicating that he may have known that Lot wouldn't try to reach anyone, but become closely entangled with their sin. What a tragedy.
Those who wanted this res got their wish. The tent has been pitched. The family is now going to be exposed to all sorts of ungodly filth, things that God decreed destroyed in judgement.
Wonder how long it will be before the family moves right in in the name of diversity and begins to declare their union with sin?
What a tragedy that is about to occur in the homes of what were once good, church going folks.
And all of this will come about because of an uncertain sound being sent by a group that seems to have lost their way.

Seriously, how many card carrying UPC ministers do you think have TV's in their homes? Ask anyone and I will guarantee you that it is not a small number. Actually, I have a few in my home and I dare any official to try to come into MY home and try to control my life or the lives of my family. I answer to a higher calling of righteousness.

I'll even take it one step further. I will get rid of my telivisions IF every General Board member will provide to me a copy of their Blockbuster or video rental history for the past year. I'll bet there would be some red faces!

Good post NI. I agree wholeheartedly. Bro. Haney himself warned at GC about putting the word of God on a new cart. This is just the beginning. As Bro. Johnny Godair preached once; "I will get myself to the great men"
There are still good ministers standing for the truth, Thank God !!

If television is a "new cart" what does that make the World Wide Web?

The "Truth" is not what means you use to publish the Gospel it is the Gospel.
Of course if folks that want to preach or advertise on TV change the message of Jesus' saving grace then they are in trouble.

Well thank you for your opinion. :D

Blessings

:stirpot

You are welcome, it didn't require much thought........:tease :ursofunny :stirpot

Probably not as many as you might think. Did you lie to get your ministers license? Just curious.

I will second this question and ask if he lied signing the Affirmation Statement this year. The AS said you agreed with Section VII, Section 7, Paragraph 31 as well as the remainder of the manual.

:tvhappy

This is what I don't understand about the big fuss with having to sign the AS, isn't this is the same agreement that you sign when you get your license?

I'm not saying that I agree with everything that is in the manuel, but if you agree with it (supposedly) when you get your license, you should still be agreeing with it enough to sign the AS. If not, you try affect a change, as has been done this year, or leave. It seems pretty simple to me.

There we have it folks.

THIS kind of posting is why dizzyde is one of my favorites to read here.

:blush :ty

A new low.

Comparing advertising a church on TV to try and reach the lost with Lot's incestuous relationship with his daughters.

Another graduate from the DA and PP School of Hyperbole.

Unless it was meant literally in which case. Sad really sad.

These threads always remind me of Paul's warning against outward issues being emphasized:

Colossians 2:20-3:3 KJV (20) Wherefore if ye be dead with Christ from the rudiments of the world, why, as though living in the world, are ye subject to ordinances, (21) (Touch not; taste not; handle not; (22) Which all are to perish with the using; ) after the commandments and doctrines of men? (23) Which things have indeed a shew of wisdom in will worship, and humility, and neglecting of the body; not in any honour to the satisfying of the flesh. (3:1) If ye then be risen with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God. (2) Set your affection on things above, not on things on the earth. (3) For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God.

(I always throw this into the forum every few months.) ;)

Whew... Right on!

How about use the scripture in context, this is a good example of taking text, reading your pet issue into it.

Real simple answer. I did NOT lie to get my minister's license. Regarding the AS, quite simply, yes, I have lied when I signed it, according to YOUR view. I will continue to sign it as long as I wish and there is nothing anyone can do about it. I double dog dare anyone to try to take my license for simply having a TV. It ain't gonna happen and everyone knows it ain't gonna happen. It would start a firestorm.

There ya have it folks, he lied according to my view. LOL! Unless "I" mis-interpreted the manual, it does state that no minister shall have a t.v. while holding credentials with the UPCI.

Not that it bothers me that you have a t.v., I don't necessarily believe that one is condemned for having one, however, lying about having one is an altogether different issue, don't you think?

BTW, why would anyone care to come to your house and take your license, when all the board members would have to do is simply not allow them to be renewed?

Hawkman is a little more "in your face" than I'm comfortable with; but didn't NA Urshan's 1993 letter say you could read and interpret the AS in pretty much whatever way you wanted?

I signed the AS for another 5 years (it was annual at the time) even though I was increasingly becoming aware of the hypocrisy of the org itself. When I was asked to "sign on" with another man's adultery I let my sig and my membership lapse.

Like I said, it ain't gonna happen. Not now, not ever. There are too many Board members who have TV's. Face the facts. You may not like it, but that's just the way it is. If only ONE minister is denied renewal for owning a TV, I tell you, there will be a firestorm!



Yes, I know it is a little "in your face" That is mainly more for effect than anything else. The cover letter stands and there is nothing anyone in the UPC can do about it. As I said, I double dog dare anyone!!! Aint' gonna happen!!! There is too much blatant hypocrisy for anyone to come down on someone for the worst of sins as having a TV.

Immorality is another matter. Someone should be canned immediately for that. But I have a TV and I'm not getting rid of it and neither will I surrender in my license. They can have my license when they pry my cold dead fingers from around it!!! Ha....

In fact, I dare to say that I could tell any board member that I have a TV and still sign the AS and there is NOTHING they could or would do!!!! Period!!!

I will get rid of my telivisions IF every General Board member will provide to me, or the public, a copy of their Blockbuster or video rental history for the past year. I'll bet there would be some red faces!

WOW. I don't even know what to say to you except, WOW. Why would you want to be a part of an organization that you have such venom for. It seems soooo unproductive. The energy that you are wasting in such extreme negative emotion towards it is tragic.

Friend,

I have to say that your ethics and integrity are shining reeeeaaallllll brightly in your post.

Wow. Think I'll stay outta this one. Except to say.... Try some decaf for a while, Brother. It'll settle your nerves, make ya feel better.

Or maybe just pray about it.

Eccl 7:9

9 Be not hasty in thy spirit to be angry: for anger resteth in the bosom of fools.
KJV

When all said and done Lot was saved!

Truthfully, I'm not near as venomous as it sounds on the surface. I am merely making a point from the original premise of this thread. I don't make a big deal out of having a TV and I don't flaunt it to officials or to anyone. I am able to say the things I do here soley due to anonymouty. Really, some of what I said is sarcasm but since you cant' see me it doesn't come through my typing.

There is no prohibition to watching movies. We would all be shocked at some of the movies our officials watch. But someone has the audacity to state that the whole TV resolution will be the bane of the UPC. Not so at all. TV is already here in the UPC. It has proliferated the UPC. My ethics and integrity are no different than the majority of my brethren who boast about things they don't do or how holy they are.

I don't get drunk. I don't cheat on my wife. I don't steal. I pay my taxes. I tithe. I worship etc. But because I state that I have a TV like most of the other ministers in the UPC I'm a really bad guy. Like I said, I'm not hateful of the UPC, but in light of everything that is going on, to state that I'm bad because I have a TV and sign the AS like everyone else who has one, is beyone me.

But when you sign aren't you saying you will not have one?

I am not in the UPC.

Never been in the UPC.

No plans t be in the UPC.

And I don't have a tv.

Never had a tv.

No plans to ever have a tv.

The org. doesn't set my boundaries or my convictions.

Well, it looks like things are heating up around here.

However, it is refreshing to see someone being honest about signing the AS and taking NAU's cue about Districts not being able to come after a minister. Hawk may be "slightly" aggressive and certainly somewhat in your face but he is telling the truth about himself and I think the majority of the ministers in the org. I don't really see him as bragging, but he is making a good point.

I left because I could no longer sign the AS but I never condemned anyone for signing if it didn't bother them. Hawk, like the rest of his "brethren" have to do what they feel they have to do.

You guys can lambaste him for saying what he has, but he is just saying what many more like him would love to say but can't for fear of repercussion.

Agreed, MoW, and Hawkman brings up an interesting point:

Since "television" in all of its myriad forms has been in the UPC for decades really, what has the effect been?

The most telling effect has been our own hypocrisy. But aside from that; what have we seen?

I've sat with some of the most conservative of brethren as their conversation on college basketball left me far, far behind in the dark. I couldn't even talk to these guys in a friendly banter because they had such a wealth of knowledge and an in depth understanding, not just of the rankings but getting right down to players and coaches and their skills and history. These guys will be in Tulsa.

I'm not condemning them for their basketball, I just wonder how they keep so up to date and possess such a detailed knowledge of schools that are no where near to where they live. The answer? They enjoy college basketball on television. Hi guys! Say "Howdy" to brothers Booker and Wilson for me.

But aside from our hypocrisy, how has television already affected the UPC and Apostolic fellowship?

TV itself may not have affected the UPC, but the "TV Resolution" certainly has flushed out some stinking spirits.

May God Purge Us...

Those stinking spirits are on both sides of the aisle! My only poinst in bringning this stuff up is to pull the covers back on what already is amongst us in the UPC. I'm not saying that we all gather our pitch forks and march on St. Louis. I'm only saying that it (TV) is already here and has been here for quite some time. My threat about my license was only to make a point. Who else but me would like to be able to see a record of what our officials are watching in their homes or in their hotel rooms? Not that I am lily white, that's not my point. My point is that there is really not that much difference between most of the libs and cons when it comes right down to it. Oh the rhetoric paints a wide divide but I think the rhatoric is wider than the lives.

Yes, the TV issue has flushed out a number of things!!!!!!!

I could care less what THEY do with their time.

I can assure you there are many in the Western District that do not have a TV in their homes. Many saints also do not. I know of a Pastor who announced the Resolution 4 and that he was going to advertise. The next service 5 families were at another church seeking transfers to a church that did not compromise.

Until Jan 2008- when the former UPC ministers I fellowship will STILL not have a TV in their home.

Niccccccccccccccce attitude you have worked on there.

Matt said it in another thread-

One hypocrisy doesn't justify another. If officials in UPC have TV then they are hypocrites as well. You can't signed a commitment to not have one and have one and it not be lying.

In the past 50 years I've been part of many UPC congregations.

Although I don't know of ministers having "working" TV's...face it, in the current age many watch videos and even movies. But through the years many of the saints have owned TV's and the world didn't come to an end.
Often the churches that preached the most against TV caused the most hypocrisy.

There is an on/off switch and a remote control to permit one to turn it off or change channels. It requires discipline perhaps, but the entire Christian walk requires discipline. :santathumb

Hypocrisy is signing a statement saying you will not have one and have one.

AMEN Bro!

Hawkman,
What you have written is one more reason why I wouldn't join the UPC. To think that org has such callous men that can't be in leadership and obey the authority that they willingly have over them (no one forced you join the UPC) makes the whole org look bad. Also, lying is so serious that the Bible tells us they would go to the Lake of Fire. Now I wouldn't say one would go to hell for having a tv (unless personally convicted and then disobedient), but you are in an org and you sign a statement that says that you uphold what the manual teaches and in fact, that's a lie. You don't fear this sort of thing. If you want to own a tv, fine, go indep or ALJC or something esle, but for the sake of your soul, stop lying and disobeying the org which you yourself have aligned yourself with.

GOD BLESS!
Bro. Alex

He obviously doesn't care if he makes the org look bad.

I have been around Pentecost all my life. I have seen many people hold fast in thier convictions re: TV, and then I have seen some that you can't even talk to them because they are so glued to the tube they can't even hear you. Personally, I feel the Net is MUCH worse than TV....for what it's worth.

So I follow the example of my leaders by sigining and not worrying about it, and I'M the one who makes the UPC look bad? Were we not ALL told by the GS that if we signed and sent it in that no one would challenge it?

Some of you are really a piece of work. I am doing exactly what I was told to do and now I'm accused of making something look bad. Really, the UPC doesn't need ME to look bad. I am just telling the TRUTH that so many won't tell.

There are too many who don't tell it and then appear so holy!