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Saved WithOut The Holy Ghost ?
I might be posting this in the wrong area and if so please forgive me.
I understand some Pentecostal groups and some here on AFF ,believe one is saved and then filled with The Holy Ghost.Evidently a fair amount of OPs teach this. Now this is asked in charity, but I do read scriptures that say without the Spirit of Christ you can't be His,or none of His Or I read verses that say it is by One Spirit we are baptized into one body. Ok what is the difference in receiving the Holy Ghost and being baptized with The Holy Ghost ?Isn't terms like being filled with The Holy Spirit and such synonymous terms for the same experience. If regeneration is a work of the Holy Spirit how can one be regenerate with the Spirit of Christ ? Also doesn't receiving the Spirit comes after repentance and not at repentance I understand.Because doesn't ACTS.2:37,38 teach that the Holy Ghost comes after repentance. So can one be saved and not have the Holy Ghost or Holy Spirit ? I am open-minded and willing to hear other's views on this subject. |
The book that we call Ephesians in our Bible was written by the Apostle Paul while he was in prison in Rome in the AD 60-62 time period. This imprisonment is recorded in Acts 28.
Paul calls the folks there "saints" and "faithful) (Eph 1:1) and refers to "God our Father"(Eph 1:2). In verses 13 and 14 of that first chapter he mentions that they had heard the gospel, had believed, and were sealed unto the day of redemption by the Holy Spirit. We assume these folks were saved/born again of the Spirit and had the Holy Spirit (Spirit of Christ) dwelling within. In chapter 5 and verse 18 he encourages them to "be filled with the Spirit" or as some paraphrase it, "keep getting filled with the Spirit" or "be ongoingly or continuously filled with the Spirit." The work of the Spirit begins in us when we are drawn to Jesus. The Spirit then opens our hearts to Jesus. When we make that surrender to Jesus He comes into our hearts to dwell as the Holy Spirit and we are: born of the Spirit, sealed by the Spirit unto the day of the redemption of the purchased possession, baptized (placed) by the Holy Spirit into Christ or into the Body of Christ. This, however, is not the last and final work of the Spirit in our lives. After our born again or saved experience we are to walk in the Spirit and be filled with the Spirit and some day our mortal body will be transformed/resurrected by the Spirit. Some of us here believe that the disciples of Jesus were saved and had their names written in Heaven before (Luke 10:20) the Day of Pentecost recorded in Acts chapter 2. Before Jesus ascended He told them to wait in Jerusalem until they received an empowerment of the Spirit which He also referred to as a baptism in the Spirit (Acts 1:4-8). Ten days later they received an experience which says they were "filled" with the Holy Spirit (Acts 2:4). Peter referred to this experience as the Spirit being poured out (Acts 2:17, 32). Later in Acts 4:8 we read that Peter was filled with the Spirit, and still later he was among a group of people who were filled with the Spirit (Acts 4:31). So, there are experiences subsequent to being born of the Spirit when it speaks of the Spirit being poured out; the Spirit coming upon; receiving (making room for) the Spirit; being immersed/baptized/saturated in the Spirit; and being filled with the Spirit. |
Does anybody else have an opinion ?
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I concur with much of Sam's Writings.
At hearing in faith the word of God we are graciously given God's spirit in our lives. The filling or the falling upon or in some scriptures it refers to he came upon them. This is a manifestion of the spirit which happens not just once but there can be many "fillings" in our lives. The scripture is true and if you have not the spirit of Christ you are not his. But many mistakenly take that to mean if the Spirit has never manifested in the opertion of a gift in you r life you "ain't got squat" |
I do agree that you have an experience prior to HG baptism but personally I don't see a difference between receiving the HG and being baptized with the HG.
I see baptism in Jesus name as a expression of the faith one places in Christ at repentance,I understand one receives Spirit baptism due to their faith in Christ. I feel it is God's will for all who are penetant to place their in Christ and His atoning blood and be buried with Him in His name,and to be Spirit filled and then to live a life of progressive sanctification and personal holiness awaiting a final resurrection. I'm just being honest here but I am listening to others's side of the issue. |
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I just don't think it's wise or biblical for someone to say that you are "saved" even though you still haven't recieved the Holy Ghost. It's like saying you can be baptized, but you don't have to get wet.
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If you think think baptism of the Holy Ghost and receiving the Holy Ghost is the same you make the Holy Ghost an object. And we all know that the Holy Ghost is God, a being. So if I've repented and have even gotten baptised, do I not have God in me. I mean, are we oneness, or are we oneness? |
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According to your belief, the Holy Ghost would have came upon them when they heard and received the word of God in faith. But the scripture plainly says: 14Now when the apostles which were at Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent unto them Peter and John:So keeping in mind the above passage, upon what scriptural basis do you say: " At hearing in faith the word of God we are graciously given God's spirit in our lives." ? . |
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What scriptures do you used to teach that there's distinction between receiving the Holy Ghost, and being baptized in the Holy Ghost? Quote:
We see a clear example of a whole bunch of new believers who had repented and got baptized, but still didn't have the Holy Ghost. I guess it would be nice to think that anyone who repents, receives the Holy Ghost just by their repentance and/or being baptized.... but there's no scriptural basis for us to believe or teach that . . |
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The Holy Ghost is God. The Holy Ghost is a "He." We do not say, I love the Lord because It is my Father and I am Its child. Neither do we say I love Jesus because It is my Savior. It died on the cross for me and now It lives in my heart. Nor should we say in reference to the Holy Spirit, It lives in me, or thank God I have received It, or It came into my heart. In my opinion, God is Spirit. We can say God lives in our heart. We can say Jesus lives in our heart. We can say the Holy Spirit lives in our heart. We can say Jesus lives in our heart. However we express it, only one Spirit lives in our heart whatever we call Him. |
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We know it by faith. |
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Or is this just a personal belief? |
Jesus said, "He that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out" (John 6:37)
The Apostle John said: 11 And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. 12 He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life. 13 These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God. (1 John 5:11-13) Previously he had said: "If you believe that Jesus is the Christ --that He is God's Son and your Savior-- then you are a child of God." (1 John 5:1) |
So how come the Samaritan believers in Acts 8 didnt have the Holy Ghost after repenting and being baptized ? (my previous post above .. #9, goes into this in more detail)
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receiving the Spirit, being filled with the Spirit, the Spirit falling upon them, the Spirit coming upon them, being endued with power, being baptized in the Spirit, receiving the promise of the Father, being filled with the Spirit |
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I thought just for once, someone was going to come with better scriptures than that. Anyway... Quote:
I don't see how being "cast out" would even apply here. Quote:
"Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him."If we want to pull verses out of the proper overall NT context, one might also try to say that anyone who just believes is saved". Using your apparent train of thought here... ... Acts 16:31 "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved".But a person walking into a church and saying "I believe" ... that by itself doesn't make him saved, does it? Same concept. Believing is key, but thats only the beginning. It certainly doesn't constitute salvation in and of itself. Or... we could go to a ridiculous extreme, if we're just going to quote scripture, without proper context and balance.For example how about Acts 2:14 " And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved." ?If someone told you he literally "called on the name" of Jesus so therefore he's saved,would you tell him he's correct? The Lord's name is Jesus. So He calls on Jesus' name and this literal "calling on the name" = salvation? That wouldn't make any sense, and of course no one really believes or teaches that. But its the same concept as what you (and many other PCI-type thinkers) seem to propose ,if you say one becomes a child of God just because they "believe" that Jesus is the Christ. 1 John 5:1 is not a proof text of any kind concerning the salvation plan per se; it doesn't even mention repentance, which we know is critical to salvation. --- So how do you say that anyone who believes and accepts Jesus has the Holy Ghost? What scripture really backs that up? So back to the question of "how you know a person has received the Holy Ghost?" ... Didn't the believers in Acts 10 know that the new believers in Acts 10 got the Holy Ghost because they spoke in tongues? Where did the believers ever accept that someone received the Holy Ghost simply because they "accepted Jesus" or "believed" ?"for they heard them speak with tongues and magnify God" Acts 10:46 |
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To be saved then one must believe in the heart and confess with the mouth the Lord Jesus? What about repentance? |
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The so called PCI position is pretty weak in light of all scripture on the topic of salvation. TRFrance's post about the Samaritan disciples will not let their position be right.
Having said that I will now say that tongues as the ONLY initial evidence is the real issue here. True the Holy Spirit is personal and God. But the baptism of the Spirit the Bible speaks of is the Spirit of God being poured out on the Believer. Another way of saying they are anointed by the Spirit. In that sense it is accurate to speak of having it. |
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The Holy Ghost is a He, baptism of the Holy Ghost is an experience a gift promised by God. If you believe God is the Father, Son and Holy Ghost, you can't separate them when if comes to receiving the gift. How can you be repented and baptized and still not have God in you? (Father, Son and Holy Ghost). Acts 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. |
Holy Ghost only equals tongues in some minds.
No tongues=no holy ghost. That is your problem when you veiw scripture with your glasses tined with this theolgy. |
i believe the greatest evidence of the holy ghost indwelling is the fruit of the spirit, dt, :bells
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I endorse this thread.
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We know the HG is promised by God. The question is, is someone saved before receiving of the Holy Ghost. ? If so, at what point, does the Holy Ghost come into the person? Obviously you think the baptism of the Holy Ghost is different from the gift of the Holy Ghost. That is so not scriptural , I’m just shaking my head to see that people actually believe that. Quote:
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And explain to me how believing the 2 are the same "makes the Holy Ghost an object". I don't even see the rationale there in that, or how that even matters one way or another in this discussion. Quote:
[quote=Darcie;325924] Quote:
Let me ask it this way... at what point does the gift come... when you believe? , when you decide to accept Jesus? When they get baptized? or when exactly? When do you know the person has received the gift? Quote:
Lets go with what the scriptures say, not just the concepts you and I might have in our mind. So you think if someone repents and is baptized, then they must have God in them? . Ok, fine... scriptures please. I am more than willing to hear them. And don't just say acts 2:38, because that doesn't prove anything as far as the point being discussed in this thread. ---- Now speaking of scriptures, I'll go back to my earlier reference, which you didn't bother to respond to... I'll be brief, since I've already referred to it... 1) In Acts 8, the Samaritans repented and were baptized , but had not received the Holy Ghost... until till afterward, when Peter and John came to and prayed for them to receive it. So tell me, doesn't that blatantly undermine your theory on this?? 2) Lets throw in another one. Piggybacking on Mizpah’s question above…. Quote:
So 1 point and 1 question for you then… A--If Paul had received the Holy Ghost just by repenting, he wouldn't have needed Ananias to pray for him to receive the gift... B---Or do you believe the the Holy Ghost "just comes" at baptism ? In that case, tell us why that didn’t happen with the Samaritans in Acts 8. |
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I'm seeing a lot of opinion and conjecture in your post, Sam. But let's try to stick to what the book says. Quote:
Answer is "no" . What it does say is that they received the word and were baptized. (Acts 8, v. 6, and 12) . "Receiving" the word, (i.e. accepting/believing the word) does not constitute salvation in and of itself. It says plainly that the Holy Ghost had not yet come upon them. (v. 15-16) The Word tells us that he who does not have the Spirit "is none of His" (Rom 8:9) or as the NIV renders it : "if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Christ" And if it is by one Spirit that we are baptized into the body (1 Cor 12:13), then a person is not even in the body of Christ (i.e. "not saved") if they haven't yet received the the Spirit. There's no way to get around that. It might not be popular to teach that, but it's scriptural! So in light of Rom 8:9 & 1 Cor 12:13 on what basis then (apart from just your feelings), do you assert that the Samaritans in Acts 8 were saved (at verse 12) when the bible tells us they had not received the Holy Spirit? Quote:
What did the eunuch say? Lets look at that...verse 36-38: 36...the eunuch said, See, here is water; what doth hinder me to be baptized? 37 And Philip said, If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God. 38 And he commanded the chariot to stand still: and they went down both into the water, both Philip and the eunuch; and he baptized him. You are totally reading into that verse things that are not stated. The only thing Philip asked was if the man believed. He wanted a profession of faith. (The 2 things the scripture has ever shown to be required before baptism were 1/ believing/...or a "confession of faith" showing belief, as we see here in 8:36-38, and of course 2/ repentance [see acts 2:38] ) Did it say Philip required the man to be "saved, or converted" before baptism? No. You're saying that. (And you're probably reading that meaning into the scripture because you feel that believing is synonymous with salvation). All Philip was requiring was the confession of faith. Thats all that passage says. On that note, we see that Jesus said "he that believes and is baptized shall be saved. (Mark 16:16). This indicates to us that baptism is part of the salvation process, not something that comes after salvation. So Philip wouldn't be trying.. Quote:
See the distinction there? Quote:
In your opinion they were saved. You seem to rely on your opinion a lot with this. How about if we just stick to the Word? Quote:
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You're actually helping me make my point here. Clearly, (A )these terms you just listed all refer to the same single experience. Lets start with that... And... (B) we know from scripture that receiving "the Holy Spirit", is the same as receiving the "Spirit of Christ", otherwise referred to as "the Spirit of your Father", or simply, "the Spirit". OK, basic stuff -- (there's one Spirit). So... That being said... (1)... If... "he that has not the Spirit of Christ is none of his" (Rom 8:9) , then ... a...the Samaritans in Acts 8 were "none of His" before they received the Holy Ghost, which didn't take place until verse 17 b... they were not in the body of Christ , since believers are baptized into the body by that one Spirit. c... to put it simply, they were NOT saved [before verse 17] because there is no salvation without having the Spirit of God (see Rom 8:9 again), which we can all see they had not yet received up to this point. and (2)... If (as Acts 8:15-16 says) they had not received the Holy Spirit, (aka the Spirit of Christ) , one cannot rightfully say "they had Jesus living within them" , since Jesus comes to live in us by way of His Spirit. The bible makes it abundantly clear that the Holy Ghost and the Spirit of Jesus Christ are that one Spirit. Therefore, no Holy Spirit=No Spirit of Jesus Christ= No "Jesus living in their hearts"!! Its that simple. Thus, it is a gross error to teach that a person who repents and believes in Jesus is saved before they "receive", /or "are baptized in"the Holy Spirit. There is nothing scriptural to support the idea/teaching that "Jesus comes and is living in " somebody before they receive the Spirit of Christ). Essentially such a teaching would presuppose that the believer who comes to God receives a "first blessing" (initial coming of Jesus into their heart).. and then later a "second blessing" (i.e. the outpouring, infilling, baptism of the Spirit). There are many who teach this, and it serves as a nice convenient doctrine that makes a lot of people feel good, but its not supported by scripture, and it's SIMPLY. NOT. TRUE.. |
One last question, in Acts 19 why did Paul ask the disciples he found at Ephesus this question:
Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? KJV Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed?" NASV If Paul believed the Holy Ghost is received at faith why did he ask this question? |
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Note that the same passage says: 5When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. 6And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied.After they got baptized, Paul subsequently laid hands for them to receive the holy Ghost. But if the Holy Ghost is automatically received by faith, why didn't they receive the HG upon believing Paul's gospel... or after that, simply upon being baptized? The PCI version of salvation just doesn't stand up to scrutiny, when measured against scripture. It's simply a "Lite Version" of salvation. . |
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I can understand why people would like to believe the PCI view. It's more inclusive but I agree it doesn't measure up. We can't change what is written in the Bible but only attempt to get at the truth by His grace. Who knows why Noah was given exact instructions as to making the ark, or Moses the tabernacle, or why God chose faith in Christ, repentance toward God, and baptisms to bring us into his church? I'd like to know and understand the bigger picture but until then I have to trust the word of God and not the opinions of men. |
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Your not saved if your not filled with the Holy Ghost,If the Spirit don't dwell IN you..Your none of his.
.Rom.8:9: But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his If we believe we will eat his word and drink his Spirit and only then will we have life.When we drink his Spirit we are filled with his Spirit. John 6:47. Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life. 48. I am that bread of life. 49. Your fathers did eat manna in the wilderness, and are dead. 50. This is the bread which cometh down from heaven, that a man may eat thereof, and not die. 51. I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world. 52. The Jews therefore strove among themselves, saying, How can this man give us his flesh to eat? 53. Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh (Word) of the Son of man, and drink his blood,(Drink his Spirit) ye have no life in you. 54. Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day. 55. For my flesh is meat indeed, and my blood is drink indeed. 56. He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, dwelleth in me, and I in him. 57. As the living Father hath sent me, and I live by the Father: so he that eateth me, even he shall live by me. 58. This is that bread which came down from heaven: not as your fathers did eat manna, and are dead: he that eateth of this bread shall live for ever. 59. These things said he in the synagogue, as he taught in Capernaum. 60. Many therefore of his disciples, when they had heard this, said, This is an hard saying; who can hear it? 61. When Jesus knew in himself that his disciples murmured at it, he said unto them, Doth this offend you? 62. What and if ye shall see the Son of man ascend up where he was before? 63. It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life Be washed by the Holy Ghost. We are washed and regenerated and renewed and SAVED when we are filled with the Holy Ghost. Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost. -- Titus 3:5 |
[QUOTE=TRFrance;326072]Darcie , youre totally missing the point here, and I see you're not even bothering to respond to the scriptural references I mentioned.
Yes the Holy Ghost is a he.. nobody is arguing with that. How is that relevant to this issue? The Holy Ghost is promised by God. Again, nobody is disputing that. That is not the issue here. We know the HG is promised by God. The question is, is someone saved before receiving of the Holy Ghost. ? If so, at what point, does the Holy Ghost come into the person? Obviously you think the baptism of the Holy Ghost is different from the gift of the Holy Ghost. That is so not scriptural , I’m just shaking my head to see that people actually believe that. I think Sam did a good job of showing that the following descriptions, used interchangeably in the NT, are different ways of describing the same experience. These are all the same thing. Otherwise show me, Darcy, from scripture, how the baptism of the Holy Ghost is a separate experience from receiving the Holy Ghost. And explain to me how believing the 2 are the same "makes the Holy Ghost an object". I don't even see the rationale there in that, or how that even matters one way or another in this discussion. Again, more of the same. Nobody here is "separating them" here. I STILL fail to see how any of this is relevant to the point of Scott's question. Quote:
I believe that the baptism of the Holy Ghost is the gift, the experience. A baptism that comes from God (who is Father, Son, Spirit). Something we have no control over. He is the one who gives it. I am not missing the point. I used to believe like you do. I've said my peace and really don't think its worth the debate. |
the W & S crowd often forgets that filling/receiving/ the Holy Ghost is not simply an experience of speaking in tongues .... this is a manifestation ... but the Spirit of God has been moving througout time ... when it moved over the face of the waters ... dwelled within prophets and others in the OT and He dwells/makes residence in those that accept Him through faith in His Incarnate Word - Jesus Christ.
Rev. 3: 20Here I am! I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears my voice and opens the door, I will come in and eat with him, and he with me. 1 John 5:1 Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him Romans 8;11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, unless it abides in the vine, so neither can you, unless you abide in Me" (John 15:4). If you abide in My Word, then you are truly disciples of Mine" (John 8:31). "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink His blood, you have no life in you. Whoever eats my flesh and drinks My blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day. For My flesh is food indeed and My blood is drink indeed. He who eats My flesh and drinks My blood abides in Me and I in Him." John 6: 53-56 |
There is salvation only in the truth.
The Importance of knowing ALL truth and receiving ALL truth,NO perversion.John17:17. Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth. 18. As thou hast sent me into the world, even so have I also sent them into the world. 19. And for their sakes I sanctify myself, that they also might be sanctified through the truth You can only be born (regenerated) by the truth of God's word Jesus (Jehoshua,Yehowshuwa) 1 Peter001:022Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth (word) through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently: 001:023Being born (regenerated) again, not of corruptible seed (word) , but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever 1 John003:009Whosoever is born (regenerated) of God doth not commit (practice) sin; for his seed (Word) remaineth in him: and he cannot (practice) sin, because he is born (regenerated) of God |
Acts10:43: To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins.So to believe means to Repent and be baptized because Acts 2:38: says,Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins,So we must conclude that if believing gives remission of sins and Repenting and being baptized gives remission of sins,then believing don't simply mean to believe Jesus died for your sins and accept him as you savour
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