A Question about forgiveness and the Old Testament
 

It's been taught that in the OT because the blood of lambs and bulls never could cleans sins that the sins of the OT believers were rolled ahead until the time of Christ. Were they forgiven in the OT? Were their sins washed away before Christ died?

Oh come on you guys...did God wash away all their sins before Calvary or were they wiped away after Jesus died?

To ask the question is to get the answer. Praxeas you already answered your own question.

The blood of bulls and animals rolled everything to the cross and the resurrection. Everyone made their sacrifices to roll everything to the ultimate sacrifice.

In Jesus name

Brother Benincasa

www.OnTimeJournal.com

I don't know the answer to your question. I have a question of my own. How could the Jews under the law of Moses who died before the day of Pentecost be forgiven if they could not have believed in Christ. Aren't men appointed once to die and then the judgement? Does that mean immediately after death, the dead are judged and appointed either paradise or hell until the resurrection?

If they were under the old covenant, how could they have their sins washed away under the new covenant?

The sacrifices rolled the sins forward. I think this was done yearly. When Christ died, He atoned for their sins.
The OT looks forward to the cross. The NT looks back to the cross.

Chapter and verse please? Where does the Bible say anywhere that animal sacrifices rolled sins forward?

I knew someone would ask that. I don't have an answer. But, it sounded good.:jolly

Then my question is....how could Abraham and others be JUSTIFIED and not FORGIVEN of their sins?

Faith is the answer. Hebrews 11:1 Now faith is being sure of what we hope for and certain of what we do not see. 2This is what the ancients were commended for.
3By faith we understand that the universe was formed at God's command, so that what is seen was not made out of what was visible. 4By faith Abel offered God a better sacrifice than Cain did. By faith he was commended as a righteous man, when God spoke well of his offerings. And by faith he still speaks, even though he is dead.

5By faith Enoch was taken from this life, so that he did not experience death; he could not be found, because God had taken him away. For before he was taken, he was commended as one who pleased God. 6And without faith it is impossible to please God, because anyone who comes to him must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who earnestly seek him.

7By faith Noah, when warned about things not yet seen, in holy fear built an ark to save his family. By his faith he condemned the world and became heir of the righteousness that comes by faith.

8By faith Abraham, when called to go to a place he would later receive as his inheritance, obeyed and went, even though he did not know where he was going. 9By faith he made his home in the promised land like a stranger in a foreign country; he lived in tents, as did Isaac and Jacob, who were heirs with him of the same promise. 10For he was looking forward to the city with foundations, whose architect and builder is God.

11By faith Abraham, even though he was past age—and Sarah herself was barren—was enabled to become a father because he[a]considered him faithful who had made the promise. 12And so from this one man, and he as good as dead, came descendants as numerous as the stars in the sky and as countless as the sand on the seashore.

13All these people were still living by faith when they died. They did not receive the things promised; they only saw them and welcomed them from a distance. And they admitted that they were aliens and strangers on earth. 14People who say such things show that they are looking for a country of their own. 15If they had been thinking of the country they had left, they would have had opportunity to return. 16Instead, they were longing for a better country—a heavenly one. Therefore God is not ashamed to be called their God, for he has prepared a city for them.

17By faith Abraham, when God tested him, offered Isaac as a sacrifice. He who had received the promises was about to sacrifice his one and only son, 18even though God had said to him, "It is through Isaac that your offspring[b] will be reckoned."[c] 19Abraham reasoned that God could raise the dead, and figuratively speaking, he did receive Isaac back from death.

20By faith Isaac blessed Jacob and Esau in regard to their future.

21By faith Jacob, when he was dying, blessed each of Joseph's sons, and worshiped as he leaned on the top of his staff.

22By faith Joseph, when his end was near, spoke about the exodus of the Israelites from Egypt and gave instructions about his bones.

23By faith Moses' parents hid him for three months after he was born, because they saw he was no ordinary child, and they were not afraid of the king's edict.

24By faith Moses, when he had grown up, refused to be known as the son of Pharaoh's daughter. 25He chose to be mistreated along with the people of God rather than to enjoy the pleasures of sin for a short time. 26He regarded disgrace for the sake of Christ as of greater value than the treasures of Egypt, because he was looking ahead to his reward. 27By faith he left Egypt, not fearing the king's anger; he persevered because he saw him who is invisible. 28By faith he kept the Passover and the sprinkling of blood, so that the destroyer of the firstborn would not touch the firstborn of Israel.

29By faith the people passed through the Red Sea[d] as on dry land; but when the Egyptians tried to do so, they were drowned.

30By faith the walls of Jericho fell, after the people had marched around them for seven days.

31By faith the prostitute Rahab, because she welcomed the spies, was not killed with those who were disobedient.[e]

32And what more shall I say? I do not have time to tell about Gideon, Barak, Samson, Jephthah, David, Samuel and the prophets, 33who through faith conquered kingdoms, administered justice, and gained what was promised; who shut the mouths of lions, 34quenched the fury of the flames, and escaped the edge of the sword; whose weakness was turned to strength; and who became powerful in battle and routed foreign armies. 35Women received back their dead, raised to life again. Others were tortured and refused to be released, so that they might gain a better resurrection. 36Some faced jeers and flogging, while still others were chained and put in prison. 37They were stoned[f]; they were sawed in two; they were put to death by the sword. They went about in sheepskins and goatskins, destitute, persecuted and mistreated— 38the world was not worthy of them. They wandered in deserts and mountains, and in caves and holes in the ground.

39These were all commended for their faith, yet none of them received what had been promised. 40God had planned something better for us so that only together with us would they be made perfect.

The Messiah is what had been promised. We are joined with the Old Testament saints at Calvary.

God is consistent, Everybody OT and NT are saved the same way: thru faith in Jesus Christ.

Here is a scripture that is used to teach this:

Heb 9:15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.

Clarke:For the redemption of the transgressions
To make atonement for the transgressions which were committed under the old covenant, which the blood of bulls and calves could not do; so the death of Jesus had respect to all the time antecedent to it, as well as to all the time afterward till the conclusion of the world.

Gill's commentary is too long to post: http://www.studylight.org/com/geb/vi...=009&verse=015

Heb 10:1 For since the law has but a shadow of the good things to come instead of the true form of these realities, it can never, by the same sacrifices that are continually offered every year, make perfect those who draw near.
Heb 10:2 Otherwise, would they not have ceased to be offered, since the worshipers, having once been cleansed, would no longer have any consciousness of sin?
Heb 10:3 But in these sacrifices there is a reminder of sin every year.
Heb 10:4 For it is impossible for the blood of bulls and goats to take away sins.
Heb 10:5 Consequently, when Christ came into the world, he said, "Sacrifices and offerings you have not desired, but a body have you prepared for me;
Heb 10:6 in burnt offerings and sin offerings you have taken no pleasure.
Heb 10:7 Then I said, 'Behold, I have come to do your will, O God, as it is written of me in the scroll of the book.'"
Heb 10:8 When he said above, "You have neither desired nor taken pleasure in sacrifices and offerings and burnt offerings and sin offerings" (these are offered according to the law),
Heb 10:9 then he added, "Behold, I have come to do your will." He abolishes the first in order to establish the second.
Heb 10:10 And by that will we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.
Heb 10:11 And every priest stands daily at his service, offering repeatedly the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins.
Heb 10:12 But when Christ had offered for all time a single sacrifice for sins, he sat down at the right hand of God,
Heb 10:13 waiting from that time until his enemies should be made a footstool for his feet.
Heb 10:14 For by a single offering he has perfected for all time those who are being sanctified.
Heb 10:15 And the Holy Spirit also bears witness to us; for after saying,
Heb 10:16 "This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, declares the Lord: I will put my laws on their hearts, and write them on their minds,"
Heb 10:17 then he adds, "I will remember their sins and their lawless deeds no more."
Heb 10:18 Where there is forgiveness of these, there is no longer any offering for sin.
Heb 10:19 Therefore, brothers, since we have confidence to enter the holy places by the blood of Jesus,
Heb 10:20 by the new and living way that he opened for us through the curtain, that is, through his flesh,
Heb 10:21 and since we have a great priest over the house of God,

Heb 9:13 For if the sprinkling of defiled persons with the blood of goats and bulls and with the ashes of a heifer sanctifies for the purification of the flesh,
Heb 9:14 how much more will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without blemish to God, purify our conscience from dead works to serve the living God.
Heb 9:15 Therefore he is the mediator of a new covenant, so that those who are called may receive the promised eternal inheritance, since a death has occurred that redeems them from the transgressions committed under the first covenant.
Heb 9:16 For where a will is involved, the death of the one who made it must be established.
Heb 9:17 For a will takes effect only at death, since it is not in force as long as the one who made it is alive.
Heb 9:18 Therefore not even the first covenant was inaugurated without blood.
Heb 9:19 For when every commandment of the law had been declared by Moses to all the people, he took the blood of calves and goats, with water and scarlet wool and hyssop, and sprinkled both the book itself and all the people,
Heb 9:20 saying, "This is the blood of the covenant that God commanded for you."
Heb 9:21 And in the same way he sprinkled with the blood both the tent and all the vessels used in worship.
Heb 9:22 Indeed, under the law almost everything is purified with blood, and without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness of sins.

Of Heb 10:3
JFB
a remembrance--a recalling to mind by the high priest's confession, on the day of atonement, of the sins both of each past year and of all former years, proving that the expiatory sacrifices of former years were not felt by men's consciences to have fully atoned for former sins; in fact, the expiation and remission were only legal and typical (Heb_10:4, Heb_10:11). The Gospel remission, on the contrary, is so complete, that sins are "remembered no more" (Heb_10:17) by God. It is unbelief to "forget" this once-for-all purgation, and to fear on account of "former sins" (2Pe_1:9). The believer, once for all bathed, needs only to "wash" his hands and "feet" of soils, according as he daily contracts them, in Christ's blood (Joh_13:10).

That didn't answer my question BL...thanks anyways as I agree they are saved by faith NT and OT. But since Christ had not shed his blood yet and the New Covenant was not yet inaugurated how can their sins actually be forgiven? Were they saved or were they positionally saved but not actually saved YET until the time of Christ?

thanks..! I couldn't find that..

You have the same problem BL has in not understanding what I am asking. I am not asking a question about works vs faith. It's assumed from the get go that we are all saved by faith before Christ died and afterwards, however if Christ did not die then faith does nothing. Our salvation is contingent on Christ's death. So the question people is what was the status of sins and forgiveness BEFORE the Cross? If the blood was not spilled yet and the New Covenant was not yet, where they only positionally saved or "held in reserve" until the time of Christ when their sins would be released (because they had faith)?

Hebrews 9:16-18


heb 9:22

Were they saved in the OT by faith or by the works of the Law?

Ro 10:1-5 Brethren, my heart's desire and prayer to God for Israel is, that they might be saved. For I bear them record that they have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge. For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God. For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth. For Moses describeth the righteousness which is of the law, That the man which doeth those things shall live by them.

Ga 3:11-12 But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith.
And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them.

He shall live in them..not he shall be saved by it. Hebrews makes it clear nobody was saved under the law...for if they could be saved by the law then there would not be a need for a New covenant let alone Jesus Christ

Prax,

I don't differentiate between the words "justified, saved, forgiven, made righteous, salvation, etc." Abraham's righteousness was imputed to him, because he believed God. "Imputed" is an accounting term, implying that it was credited to his account. Abraham was actually a scoundrel, but God gave him credit anyway.Therefore Abraham acquired salvation on credit: Jesus' credit.

Merry Christmas my dear bro to you and your's, BL

You're wasting your breath, Big Larry.

Yes, of course, we're all hopeless. Please don't try to teach us anything. :rudolph

Well, thanks for putting words in my mouth.

That's the way I interpreted them. If that's not what you meant by " You're wasting your breath", then what did you mean?

BTW, this is a doctrine I'm still considering and would like to know more about. I'm testing the waters with some questions.

It's not like his point hasn't been made by countless other people who have said the exact same things... on countless other threads on this very forum, and others previous to this forum... this argument has been repeated ad nauseum... to me, personally, it's like beating one's head against a wall... It's a dead horse that has been beaten so much that it's not even recognizable...

Wasting breath... nothing changes... nothing is accomplished... waste of time...

Vanity of vanities...

Forum Burnout?

Not necessarily... more like argument burn out.

Praxeas, do you believe that no one before the cross was forgiven of their sins, and so were lost?

They weren't saved under or by the law. They were saved by GOD, because of their blood sacrifices.

Of course not. My point was that their sins were not literally wiped out until Christ died, until then they were considered by God to be forgiven...in other words he treated them that way because of their faith. They were justifed by faith.

Not because of their blood sacrifices. The bible clearly says the blood of those sacrifices could not do that and if they could then we don't need Jesus. The law and those blood sacrifices were ineffective and only pointed to Christ. They were a shadow of better things to come.

They were justified by faith. Their salvation came as a result of faith

Then why did they have the blood sacrifices and how were they forgiven of their sins?

No

The blood of Jesus was comming.God said it,it's done.

The blood for forgiveness is in the faith,blood of Jesus remitts al sin.

Keep reading...we posted the verses that answer that