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Joelel 03-10-2007 01:25 AM
Are You Really Saved ?
 
2 Thes.2:13: But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth.

We are saved by sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth. We are saved by the truth,Not a perverted gospel and lies like alot of people are preaching

Joelel 03-10-2007 01:39 AM
Do you really have faith that saves you ? Faith comes from hearing the word.Does hearing things that is not true give you faith ? You must have the truth of the word to be saved.The truth gives faith and we are saved by faith,so we must have truth.

Rom.10:[17] So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God

Joelel 03-10-2007 01:46 AM
We must continue in his word to be his desciple and it must be truth because only truth saves.John8:31. Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed;32. And ye shall know the truth (word) , and the truth shall make you free

Joelel 03-10-2007 01:51 AM
(NOTE THEY ARE REMOVED FROM GOD by believing a perverted gospel) Gal.001:006 I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel: (perverted word) 001:007Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ

Joelel 03-10-2007 02:08 AM
Here again we are saved by the word and IF we keep in memory the word and it must be truth,no perverson.All this scripture blows once saved always saved right out the window.So you can have believed in vain.1Cor.015:001 Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel (truth) which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand; 015:002By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain

Brother Price 03-10-2007 07:34 AM
The issue of false doctrine is one that is going to keep alot of believers out of the Kingdom. They may have obeyed Acts 2:38, but they believe that there is a trinity of gods. They may not have nay standards of holiness whatsoever. They may have an addition to the scriptures. the Bible declares such in danger, lest they repent.

Digging4Truth 03-10-2007 08:59 AM
Well Joelel... all of this really gives us nothing to comment on unless you let us know what you feel is being spoken of when the word says perverted doctrine.

Of course we all believe what you have posted because you have posted scripture (infallable there) and some very vague comments about the scriptures.

There are so many things that one could consider a perverted gospel.

Could you let us know what it is you have in mind when posting these scriptures?

Digging4Truth 03-10-2007 09:07 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Joelel (Post 34792)
Do you really have faith that saves you ? Faith comes from hearing the word.Does hearing things that is not true give you faith ? You must have the truth of the word to be saved.The truth gives faith and we are saved by faith,so we must have truth.

Rom.10:[17] So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God
(Please read this all the way through... it will seem that I am disagreeing with you but if you will read it through you will see that this is not necessarily the case)

Actually... yes sir.. faith does come by hearing things that are not true.

i taught on the armor of God a few weeks ago and when speaking of the shield of faith I brought out where faith is a conviction that something is true.

Have you ever tried to teach someone something different than they have been taught all their life? Have you ever seen them demonstrate an ability to keep speaking in total confidence in the face of scripture full in the face of what they are saying?

That is their shield of faith. They are blocking your arguements with pure conviction that what they have been told is true.

One can have faith in something that is not true just as much as they can have faith in something that is true. And they will use that faith as a shield against truth from time to time.

Now... is faith in a doctrine that is not true a saving faith. Of course not. Never.

But it is belief that gives faith. Whether that belief is based on truth or lies is another subject entirely. I have spent a good portion of time working my way around the shield of faith that people possessed which was built on untruths.

Also... I have found that fighting them only makes them hold onto their shield tighter. I have only been successful when I have allowed them to show me their shield. As they tell me about their shield I make mention from time to time of my shield. Often times... they begin to get intersted in my shield. Since I am not attacking them they put theirs down to take a closer look at mine.

Quite often I am able to sell them on my shield and they are thankful for it and happy to discard their old shield for a new & improved model. :)

I guess this is where my shield of belief in the scripture that tells us to be as wise as serpents and harmless as doves come in.

One last note... for those who are parents, pastors etc... If you teach them that we don't do this and we don't do that... then all you have accomplished is putting a shield in their hands (which is necessary and important).

It is when you take them to the book and you teach them why. It is when you open the word and give them the revelation rather that just the rules... it is then that they possess both a sword and a shield. Until the sword is given the best they can do is cower in a corner with their shield hoping to live through the attack.

Joelel 03-12-2007 01:45 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brother Price (Post 34805)
The issue of false doctrine is one that is going to keep alot of believers out of the Kingdom. They may have obeyed Acts 2:38, but they believe that there is a trinity of gods. They may not have nay standards of holiness whatsoever. They may have an addition to the scriptures. the Bible declares such in danger, lest they repent.
Hi,I agree with you on most of what you say but the word does say in Revelations not to add to the book of this prophecy.John was talking about the book of Revelations he wrote.We know that the bible is made up of many different letters written to different assemblies at different times and then several years later were all put together and made up what we know as the bible.When this was done there was many letters left out or not known about at that time.The apostle Paul was not taught by Jesus but he was taught by the Spirit as we should be. The word says the Spirit shall teach us all things.The Holy Ghost has taught me many things that is not in the bible. Is it wrong to add it to God's word ? No because it is God's word taught by God.

http://www.goodnewsinc.net/othbooks/barnabas.html
http://www.goodnewsinc.net/othbooks/hermas.html

Joelel 03-12-2007 02:05 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Digging4Truth (Post 34835)
Well Joelel... all of this really gives us nothing to comment on unless you let us know what you feel is being spoken of when the word says perverted doctrine.

Of course we all believe what you have posted because you have posted scripture (infallable there) and some very vague comments about the scriptures.

There are so many things that one could consider a perverted gospel.

Could you let us know what it is you have in mind when posting these scriptures?
Hi Digging,Perverted means twisted.So we are talking about twisted doctrine or twisted word.That is when anyone takes the truth of God's word and says it means something that is un-true.That is perverted.We must be very careful to be sure what we say and teach is true,not perverted.The more we pervert the weaker we become and we lose our reward.

Rom.14
[1] Him that is weak in the faith receive ye, but not to doubtful disputations.
[2] For one believeth that he may eat all things: another, who is weak, eateth herbs.
[3] Let not him that eateth despise him that eateth not; and let not him which eateth not judge him that eateth: for God hath received him.
[4] Who art thou that judgest another man's servant? to his own master he standeth or falleth. Yea, he shall be holden up: for God is able to make him stand.
[5] One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day alike. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind.
[6] He that regardeth the day, regardeth it unto the Lord; and he that regardeth not the day, to the Lord he doth not regard it. He that eateth, eateth to the Lord, for he giveth God thanks; and he that eateth not, to the Lord he eateth not, and giveth God thanks.
[7] For none of us liveth to himself, and no man dieth to himself.
[8] For whether we live, we live unto the Lord; and whether we die, we die unto the Lord: whether we live therefore, or die, we are the Lord's.
[9] For to this end Christ both died, and rose, and revived, that he might be Lord both of the dead and living.
[10] But why dost thou judge thy brother? or why dost thou set at nought thy brother? for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ.
[11] For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God.
[12] So then every one of us shall give account of himself to God.
[13] Let us not therefore judge one another any more: but judge this rather, that no man put a stumblingblock or an occasion to fall in his brother's way.

I Cor. 1: And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, even as unto babes in Christ.
2: I have fed you with milk, and not with meat:(deep knowledge) for hitherto ye were not able to bear it, neither yet now are ye able.
3: For ye are yet carnal: for whereas there is among you envying, and strife, and divisions, are ye not carnal, and walk as men?
4: For while one saith, I am of Paul; and another, I am of Apollos; are ye not carnal?
5: Who then is Paul, and who is Apollos, but ministers by whom ye believed, even as the Lord gave to every man?
6: I have planted,( Preached ) Apollos watered; (preached) but God gave the increase.
7: So then neither is he that planteth any thing, neither he that watereth; but God that giveth the increase.
8: Now he that planteth and he that watereth are one: and every man shall receive his own reward according to his own labour.(preaching)
9: For we are labourers together with God: ye are God's husbandry, ye are God's building.
10: According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation, (preached truth, the word)and another buildeth thereon.(preach the word) But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon. (what he preaches)
11: For other foundation (other then truth) can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.( true word)
12: Now if any man build upon this foundation (true word Jesus) gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble; (false teaching)
13: Every man's work (Preaching) shall be made manifest:(seen) for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire;(tribulation) and the fire (tribulation) shall try every man's work of what sort it is.
14: If any man's work (preaches the truth) abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
15: If any man's work (preaching of untrue) shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire. (tribulation)

Joelel 03-12-2007 02:29 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Digging4Truth (Post 34839)
(Please read this all the way through... it will seem that I am disagreeing with you but if you will read it through you will see that this is not necessarily the case)

Actually... yes sir.. faith does come by hearing things that are not true.

i taught on the armor of God a few weeks ago and when speaking of the shield of faith I brought out where faith is a conviction that something is true.

Have you ever tried to teach someone something different than they have been taught all their life? Have you ever seen them demonstrate an ability to keep speaking in total confidence in the face of scripture full in the face of what they are saying?

That is their shield of faith. They are blocking your arguements with pure conviction that what they have been told is true.

One can have faith in something that is not true just as much as they can have faith in something that is true. And they will use that faith as a shield against truth from time to time.

Now... is faith in a doctrine that is not true a saving faith. Of course not. Never.

But it is belief that gives faith. Whether that belief is based on truth or lies is another subject entirely. I have spent a good portion of time working my way around the shield of faith that people possessed which was built on untruths.

Also... I have found that fighting them only makes them hold onto their shield tighter. I have only been successful when I have allowed them to show me their shield. As they tell me about their shield I make mention from time to time of my shield. Often times... they begin to get intersted in my shield. Since I am not attacking them they put theirs down to take a closer look at mine.

Quite often I am able to sell them on my shield and they are thankful for it and happy to discard their old shield for a new & improved model. :)

I guess this is where my shield of belief in the scripture that tells us to be as wise as serpents and harmless as doves come in.

One last note... for those who are parents, pastors etc... If you teach them that we don't do this and we don't do that... then all you have accomplished is putting a shield in their hands (which is necessary and important).

It is when you take them to the book and you teach them why. It is when you open the word and give them the revelation rather that just the rules... it is then that they possess both a sword and a shield. Until the sword is given the best they can do is cower in a corner with their shield hoping to live through the attack.
Hi Digging,Yes a person can have faith in what he believes but only faith in truth saves a person.The word teaches there is no salvation in no other then Jesus,there is no other name by which we are saved.Jesus is the word of truth,the truth is what saves (delievers)us. The more truth we have the more we are saved or delievered.

The thing is,how much truth can a person reject befor God rejects them and they are destroyed ? Hosea004:006My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge: (word,truth) because thou hast rejected knowledge, (Word, Truth) I will also reject thee, that thou shalt be no priest to me:
Paul says this about them who cause division.Rom.016:017Now I beseech you, brethren, mark (be on gard)them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine (teachings,word,Truth) which ye have learned; and avoid them.016:018For they that are such serve not our Lord Jesus Christ, but their own belly; and by good words and fair speeches deceive the hearts of the simple.


2 John001:009Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine (teachings,truth,Word) of Christ, hath not God.He that abideth in the doctrine (teaching,truth,Word) of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son.001:010If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine,(teaching,truth,Word) receive him not into your house, neither bid him God speed: 001:011For he that biddeth him God speed is partaker of his evil deeds.

Chan 03-13-2007 10:54 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brother Price (Post 34805)
The issue of false doctrine is one that is going to keep alot of believers out of the Kingdom. They may have obeyed Acts 2:38, but they believe that there is a trinity of gods. They may not have nay standards of holiness whatsoever. They may have an addition to the scriptures. the Bible declares such in danger, lest they repent.
And you bear false witness against Trinitarians. They DO NOT BELIEVE IN MULTIPLE GODS!

As for what the original poster is saying, it seems to me that the passage he quoted is referring to salvation as a yet-future event that occurs when we go home to be with the Lord.

Joelel 03-13-2007 03:06 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chan (Post 38049)
And you bear false witness against Trinitarians. They DO NOT BELIEVE IN MULTIPLE GODS!

As for what the original poster is saying, it seems to me that the passage he quoted is referring to salvation as a yet-future event that occurs when we go home to be with the Lord.
Hi Chan,I didn't catch what he said about trinites but i think it is wrong to say trinites believe in three Gods.I talk to many of them and most believe in one God and one Son and one Holy Ghost but believe that the Son and Holy Ghost is not the one God. Then i do hear some say God the Father,God the Son and God the Holy Ghost.I don't think nost of them understand what they do believe as many oneness don't. The bottom line is if we would learn to just preach the word as it's written instead of twisting it we would be ok.We would understand much more if we looked up meanings of words in Greek and Hebrew.

What the word teaches about salvation is that salvation is a growing thing in our lives.The word saved means the same as delievered.We grow in salvation or delieverance or perfection,all the same.We are perfect in Jesus when we Believe,repent,get baptized and filled with the Holy Ghost because he forgives us and washes us from our sin.The word baptism means to be purefied or made clean.The word talks about the baptism of repentance and water and the Holy Ghost.Each baptism purefies or saves or delievers or perfects us to an extent.Then as the Spirit teaches us all truth we are saved,delievered,perfected more and more by truth.Truth gives us more faith and we are saved,delievered,perfected to a greater extent by faith and truth.Then if we continue in his word we will be saved in the end.

We have been and are being washed,saved,delievered,purified,regenerated by the truth of the word1 Peter 122: Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth(word) through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently:23: Being born (regenerated)again, not of corruptible seed,(WORD) but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever

Eph.5:25: Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;26: That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word,(SEED)27: That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish

Christ or the anointing or the word is being formed in us.Gal.4:19: My little children, of whom I travail in birth again until Christ (word) be formed in you

1John 3:9: Whosoever is born (regenerated) of God doth not commit sin;(practice sin) for his seed (word) remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

Cor.13:1 Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, and have not charity,( Perfected love) I am become as sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal.13:2 And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries, and all knowledge; and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, (Perfected love) I am nothing.

13:3 And though I bestow all my goods to feed the poor, and though I give my body to be burned, and have not charity,(Perfected Love) it profiteth me nothing.13:4 Charity (Perfected Love)suffereth long, and is kind; charity(Perfected Love) envieth not; charity (perfected Love)vaunteth not itself, is not puffed up,13:5 Doth not behave itself unseemly, seeketh not her own, is not easily provoked, thinketh no evil;

13:6 Rejoiceth not in iniquity, but rejoiceth in the truth;13:7 Beareth all things, believeth all things, hopeth all things, endureth all things.13:8 Charity (Perfected Love)never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away (WHEN WE ARE NOT PERFECTED IN LOVE).13:9 For we know in part, and we prophesy in part.

13:10 But when that which is perfect (Perfected Love)is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.13:11 When I was a child, ( Not perfect in love)I spake as a child,(Not perfect in love) I understood as a child,(not perfect in love) I thought as a child: (not Perfect in love)but when I became a man,(became perfect in love) I put away childish things.

13:12 For now(before we became perfect) we see through a glass, darkly; but then(when we became perfect) face to face: now I know(When i'm not perfect) in part; but then(when i become perfect) shall I know even as also I am known.13:13 And now abideth faith, hope, charity,( perfect love) these three; but the greatest of these is charity. (Perfected love)

Chan 03-13-2007 03:59 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Joelel (Post 38528)
Hi Chan,I didn't catch what he said about trinites but i think it is wrong to say trinites believe in three Gods.I talk to many of them and most believe in one God and one Son and one Holy Ghost but believe that the Son and Holy Ghost is not the one God. Then i do hear some say God the Father,God the Son and God the Holy Ghost.I don't think nost of them understand what they do believe as many oneness don't. The bottom line is if we would learn to just preach the word as it's written instead of twisting it we would be ok.We would understand much more if we looked up meanings of words in Greek and Hebrew.

What the word teaches about salvation is that salvation is a growing thing in our lives.The word saved means the same as delievered.We grow in salvation or delieverance or perfection,all the same.We are perfect in Jesus when we Believe,repent,get baptized and filled with the Holy Ghost because he forgives us and washes us from our sin.The word baptism means to be purefied or made clean.The word talks about the baptism of repentance and water and the Holy Ghost.Each baptism purefies or saves or delievers or perfects us to an extent.Then as the Spirit teaches us all truth we are saved,delievered,perfected more and more by truth.Truth gives us more faith and we are saved,delievered,perfected to a greater extent by faith and truth.Then if we continue in his word we will be saved in the end.

We have been and are being washed,saved,delievered,purified,regenerated by the truth of the word1 Peter 122: Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth(word) through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently:23: Being born (regenerated)again, not of corruptible seed,(WORD) but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever

Eph.5:25: Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;26: That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word,(SEED)27: That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish

Christ or the anointing or the word is being formed in us.Gal.4:19: My little children, of whom I travail in birth again until Christ (word) be formed in you

1John 3:9: Whosoever is born (regenerated) of God doth not commit sin;(practice sin) for his seed (word) remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

Cor.13:1 Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, and have not charity,( Perfected love) I am become as sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal.13:2 And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries, and all knowledge; and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, (Perfected love) I am nothing.

13:3 And though I bestow all my goods to feed the poor, and though I give my body to be burned, and have not charity,(Perfected Love) it profiteth me nothing.13:4 Charity (Perfected Love)suffereth long, and is kind; charity(Perfected Love) envieth not; charity (perfected Love)vaunteth not itself, is not puffed up,13:5 Doth not behave itself unseemly, seeketh not her own, is not easily provoked, thinketh no evil;

13:6 Rejoiceth not in iniquity, but rejoiceth in the truth;13:7 Beareth all things, believeth all things, hopeth all things, endureth all things.13:8 Charity (Perfected Love)never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away (WHEN WE ARE NOT PERFECTED IN LOVE).13:9 For we know in part, and we prophesy in part.

13:10 But when that which is perfect (Perfected Love)is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.13:11 When I was a child, ( Not perfect in love)I spake as a child,(Not perfect in love) I understood as a child,(not perfect in love) I thought as a child: (not Perfect in love)but when I became a man,(became perfect in love) I put away childish things.

13:12 For now(before we became perfect) we see through a glass, darkly; but then(when we became perfect) face to face: now I know(When i'm not perfect) in part; but then(when i become perfect) shall I know even as also I am known.13:13 And now abideth faith, hope, charity,( perfect love) these three; but the greatest of these is charity. (Perfected love)
Whether it's trinity or oneness, both doctrines are nothing more than interpretations of scripture. So, when one group or the other says this is what the Bible teaches, they're wrong. They are merely offering their interpretation of what is written in the Bible.

Joelel 03-14-2007 11:09 AM
Note the words measure and body and increase and Oil and spirit is word.

1 Cor.12:27: Now ye are the BODY of Christ, and members in particular.

John 3:29: He that hath the bride is the bridegroom: but the friend of the bridegroom, which standeth and heareth him, rejoiceth greatly because of the bridegroom's voice: this my joy therefore is fulfilled.
30: He must INCREASE, but I must DECREASE. (God increases his spirit (word) and Spirit as we decrease.


John3:34: For he (Jesus) whom GOD HATH SENT speaketh the words OF God: for God GIVETH not the Spirit by measure unto him.(Jesus). (This means God GAVE Jesus everything he is but still retained the same. God can be everything in everyone and every place at one time as he choses.

Eph.4:16: From whom the whole BODY fitly joined together and compacted by that which every joint supplieth, according to the effectual working in the MEASURE of every part, maketh INCREASE of the BODY unto the edifying of itself in love.

Eph:4:13: Till we all come in the unity (ONE) of the FAITH, and of the KNOWLEDGE of the Son of God, unto a PERFECT man, unto the MEASURE of the STATURE of the FULLNESS of Christ:

Math.25: 1: Then shall the kingdom of heaven be likened unto ten virgins, which took their lamps, and went forth to meet the bridegroom.
2: And five of them were wise, and five were foolish.
3: They that were foolish took their lamps, and took no OIL (faith,word,Spirit) with them:
4: But the wise took oil in their vessels with their lamps.
5: While the bridegroom tarried, they all slumbered and slept.
6: And at midnight there was a cry made, Behold, the bridegroom cometh; go ye out to meet him.
7: Then all those virgins arose, and trimmed their lamps.
8: And the foolish said unto the wise, Give us of your oil; for our lamps are gone out.
9: But the wise answered, saying, Not so; lest there be not enough for us and you: but go ye rather to them that sell, and buy for yourselves.
10: And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came; and they that were ready went in with him to the marriage: and the door was shut.
11: Afterward came also the other virgins, saying, Lord, Lord, open to us.
12: But he answered and said, Verily I say unto you, I know you not.
13: Watch therefore, for ye know neither the day nor the hour wherein the Son of man cometh.

John6:63: It is the spirit (word) that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the WORDS I SPEAK unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.


Rom.12:2: And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, (by the increase of word,Spirit and faith) that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.
3: For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the MEASURE of FAITH.
4: For as we have many members in one BODY (Chirst), and all members have not the same office:
5: So we, being MANY, are ONE BODY in Christ, and every one members one of another.

By understanding how God gives himself out in measure, we can better understand how in Jesus God speaks to himself in heaven and how we will see Jesus (God) sitting on the throne with God.

John 17:: These words spake Jesus, and lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, FATHER, the hour is come; glorify thy SON, that THY Son also may glorify THEE:
2: As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him.
3: And this is life eternal, that they might know THEE the ONLY TRUE GOD, AND Jesus Christ, whom THOU HAS SENT.
4: I have glorified THEE on the earth: I have finished the work which thou GAVEST me to do.
5: And now, O Father, glorify thou me WITH thine own self with the glory which I had WITH thee before the world was.
6: I have manifested THY NAME unto the men which thou GAVEST me out of the world: thine they were, and thou GAVEST them me; and they have kept thy word.
7: Now they have known that all things whatsoever THOU hast GIVEN ME are OF THEE.
8: For I have GIVEN unto them the words which THOU GIVEST me; and they have received them, and have known surely that I CAME OUT FROM THEE, and they have believed that thou didst SEND me.
9: I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which THOU hast GIVEN me; for they are thine.
10: And all mine are thine, and thine are mine; and I am glorified in them.
11: And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine OWN NAME those whom thou hast GIVEN me, that they may be ONE, AS WE ARE.
12: While I was with them in the world, I kept them in THY NAME: those that thou GAVEST me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.
13: And now COME I TO THEE; and these things I speak in the world, that they might have my joy fulfilled in themselves.
14: I have given them THY word; and the world hath hated them, because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.
15: I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil.
16: They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.
17: Sanctify them through thy TRUTH: thy word is truth.
18: As thou hast sent me into the world, even so have I also sent them into the world.
19: And for their sakes I sanctify myself, that they also might be sanctified through the truth.
20: Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;
21: That THEY ALL may be ONE; as thou, FATHER, ART IN ME, and I IN THEE, that THEY also MAY BE ONE IN US: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.
22: And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be ONE, even as WE ARE ONE:
23: I IN THEM, and THOU IN ME, that they may be made perfect in ONE; and that the world may know that thou hast SENT me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.
24: Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world.
25: O righteous Father, the world hath not known thee: but I have known thee, and these have known that thou hast sent me.
26: And I have declared unto them thy name, and will declare it: that the love wherewith thou hast loved me may be in them, and I in them.


It is the measure of Spirit, Word and Faith that God can increase or decrease in us and yet be all that he is in himself. As we receive TRUTH of the word and live by It, his Spirit and our Faith increases

Joelel 03-14-2007 12:24 PM
Heb.10:14: For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.

We grow into a greater state of perfection.
Heb.6:1: Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works (sin), and of faith toward God,

Luke8:14: And that which fell among thorns are they, which, when they have heard, go forth, and are choked with cares and riches and pleasures of this life, and bring no fruit to perfection

2 Cor.7:1: Having therefore these promises, dearly beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God.

1 John 2:5: But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.

1 John4:12: No man hath seen God at any time. If we love one another, God dwelleth in us, and his love is perfected in us.
13: Hereby know we that we dwell in him, and he in us, because he hath given us of his Spirit.
14: And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son to be the Saviour of the world.
15: Whosoever shall confess that Jesus is the Son of God, God dwelleth in him, and he in God.
16: And we have known and believed the love that God hath to us. God is love; and he that dwelleth in love dwelleth in God, and God in him.
17: Herein is our love made perfect, that we may have boldness in the day of judgment: because as he is, so are we in this world.
18: There is no fear in love; but perfect love casteth out fear: because fear hath torment. He that feareth is not made perfect in love.

We are also made perfect by tribulation.1 Peter5:10: But the God of all grace, who hath called us unto his eternal glory by Christ Jesus, after that ye have suffered a while, make you perfect, stablish, strengthen, settle you.

Our faith is also made perfect by works.James2:22: Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?

Heb.12:22: But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,
23: To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,


Heb.2:10: For it became him, for whom are all things, and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons unto glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings.

1 Thes.3:10: Night and day praying exceedingly that we might see your face, and might perfect that which is lacking in your faith?

Col.1:28: Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus:

John17:22: And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:
23: I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.

1 Cor.2:6: Howbeit we speak wisdom among them that are perfect: yet not the wisdom of this world, nor of the princes of this world, that come to nought:

Math.48: Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

2 Peter1:5: And beside this, giving all diligence,(make every effort) add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge;
6: And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness;
7: And to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity.
8: For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.
9: But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins.
10: Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:

Math.13:22 He also that received seed among the thorns is he that heareth the word; and the care of this world, and the deceitfulness of riches, choke the word, and he becometh unfruitful. 23 But he that received seed into the good ground is he that heareth the word, and understandeth it; which also beareth fruit, and bringeth forth, some an hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty. (Fruit unto perfection.)Luke 14 And that which fell among thorns are they, which, when they have heard, go forth, and are choked with cares and riches and pleasures of this life, and bring no fruit to perfection

Brother Price 03-14-2007 08:20 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chan (Post 38049)
And you bear false witness against Trinitarians. They DO NOT BELIEVE IN MULTIPLE GODS!

As for what the original poster is saying, it seems to me that the passage he quoted is referring to salvation as a yet-future event that occurs when we go home to be with the Lord.
Chan, yes they do, but just put it in terms that hide the truth. Before you say I do not know what I speak of, I am a former trinitarian minister. The notion of 'persons' is simply a misnomer for the truth of deities. They do worship three separate beings, they claim make up God, but they say each being is God. Thus, yes, they do worship multiple gods, regardless of how they put it.

Here is a question then. Is Jesus lower than the Father, or is He the Father?

Chan 03-15-2007 04:26 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brother Price (Post 41029)
Chan, yes they do, but just put it in terms that hide the truth. Before you say I do not know what I speak of, I am a former trinitarian minister. The notion of 'persons' is simply a misnomer for the truth of deities. They do worship three separate beings, they claim make up God, but they say each being is God. Thus, yes, they do worship multiple gods, regardless of how they put it.
Many of them do appear to talk about "persons" as if they were individual beings but I would suggest to you that those who say that are not trinitarians - at least not in the sense of the doctrine set forth in the early Creeds. It all comes down to how they're defining the term "persons."

Here is a question then. Is Jesus lower than the Father, or is He the Father?[/quote]As a man, Jesus is lower than the Father. Jesus did, after all, say He was going "to my God and to your God."

Brother Price 03-15-2007 09:28 PM
But, is Jesus now lower than the Father?

Joelel 03-16-2007 07:18 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chan (Post 38699)
Whether it's trinity or oneness, both doctrines are nothing more than interpretations of scripture. So, when one group or the other says this is what the Bible teaches, they're wrong. They are merely offering their interpretation of what is written in the Bible.
Hi Chan,The biggest differance I think between the trinity and oneness teaching is the way they baptize.Jesus said to baptize in the NAME of the Father,Son,and Holy Ghost.Every place the deciples baptized they baptized in Jesus name.It would be foolish to think the deciples disobeyed Jesus.Are Father Son and Holy Ghost names? No,They are titles. Jesus said to baptize in the name. What is the Son's name? It's Jesus, Isn't It?

Jesus didn't come in his own name.Jesus Said In 1 John 5 ;43. I am come in my Father's name, and ye receive me not: if another shall come in his own name, him ye will receive.( Here we find Jesus came in his Fathers name ,So his Father's name is Jesus ? )

The Father sent the Holy Ghost in his Son's name.John 14:26. But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, .( Here we find The Father Sent the Holy Ghost In Jesus name,So the Holy Ghost name Is Jesus.)

Eph.3:014 For this cause I bow my knees unto the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, 003:015 Of whom the whole family in heaven and earth is named, ( Here we find the whole family is named after the Father.( So Jesus Is A family name and is the name of the Father Son And Holy Ghost.)

Who did the Son inherit his name from?You don't inherit something from yourself.Heb.1:004 Being made so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they. ( We find here Jesus Inherited his name from the Father. What name does a Son Inherit? The family name.)

May I ask a question here,we know a family is more then one,so who all is in this family ? 2nd question,Who did Jesus the Son inherit his name from ?

Chan 03-16-2007 10:25 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brother Price (Post 42391)
But, is Jesus now lower than the Father?
1 Corinthians 15:27-28 tells us, "For he (God) hath put all things under his (Jesus') feet. But when he (God) saith all things are put under him (Jesus), it is manifest that he (God) is excepted, which did put all things under him (Jesus). And when all things shall be subdued unto him (Jesus), then shall the Son (Jesus) also himself be subject unto him (God) that put all things under him (Jesus), that God may be all in all" (parenthetical identifying of God and Jesus is mine).

Chan 03-16-2007 10:31 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Joelel (Post 42657)
Hi Chan,The biggest differance I think between the trinity and oneness teaching is the way they baptize.Jesus said to baptize in the NAME of the Father,Son,and Holy Ghost.Every place the deciples baptized they baptized in Jesus name.It would be foolish to think the deciples disobeyed Jesus.Are Father Son and Holy Ghost names? No,They are titles. Jesus said to baptize in the name. What is the Son's name? It's Jesus, Isn't It?
I really don't think that's the biggest difference, particularly since trinitarians did baptize in the name of Jesus at least into the fourth century. The only way to reconcile Matthew 28:19 and what the Apostles did is to take "name" to mean "authority" and not "appellation." Since all power (authority) was given to Jesus in Matthew 28:18, it is easy to see why the Apostles interpreted Jesus' words in Matthew 28:19 to mean all authority belonged to Jesus and that they were to baptize with that authority.

Quote:
Jesus didn't come in his own name.Jesus Said In 1 John 5 ;43. I am come in my Father's name, and ye receive me not: if another shall come in his own name, him ye will receive.( Here we find Jesus came in his Fathers name ,So his Father's name is Jesus ? )
Again, name refers to authority and not appellation.

Quote:
The Father sent the Holy Ghost in his Son's name.John 14:26. But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, .( Here we find The Father Sent the Holy Ghost In Jesus name,So the Holy Ghost name Is Jesus.)
Again, authority and not appellation.

Quote:
Eph.3:014 For this cause I bow my knees unto the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, 003:015 Of whom the whole family in heaven and earth is named, ( Here we find the whole family is named after the Father.( So Jesus Is A family name and is the name of the Father Son And Holy Ghost.)
I disagree with your conclusion that Jesus is a family name (what we would call a surname or last name).

Quote:
Who did the Son inherit his name from?You don't inherit something from yourself.Heb.1:004 Being made so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they. ( We find here Jesus Inherited his name from the Father. What name does a Son Inherit? The family name.)
I don't agree with this assessment.

Quote:
May I ask a question here,we know a family is more then one,so who all is in this family ? 2nd question,Who did Jesus the Son inherit his name from ?

The "family" refers to all those "in heaven and earth "

The biggest difference between oneness and at least the trinity doctrine of the Creeds is that the doctrine of the Creeds says, along with 1 Corinthians 8:6, that we believe in "one God" and go on to identify that one God as "the Father." Oneness essentially says, "There is one God, Jesus."

OGIA 03-16-2007 10:34 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chan (Post 42755)
I really don't think that's the biggest difference, particularly since trinitarians did baptize in the name of Jesus at least into the fourth century.
You're right, Chan. The BIG difference is that oneness theology holds the truth that Jesus Christ is the one and only God of eternity, that there is no other god but Him. The error in the baptismal practice came from that truth being subverted, not vice-versa.

BoredOutOfMyMind 03-16-2007 11:15 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Joelel (Post 36801)
Hi,I agree with you on most of what you say but the word does say in Revelations not to add to the book of this prophecy.John was talking about the book of Revelations he wrote.We know that the bible is made up of many different letters written to different assemblies at different times and then several years later were all put together and made up what we know as the bible.When this was done there was many letters left out or not known about at that time.The apostle Paul was not taught by Jesus but he was taught by the Spirit as we should be. The word says the Spirit shall teach us all things.The Holy Ghost has taught me many things that is not in the bible. Is it wrong to add it to God's word ? No because it is God's word taught by God.

http://www.goodnewsinc.net/othbooks/barnabas.html
http://www.goodnewsinc.net/othbooks/hermas.html
I am not sure if you are the author of the sites you mention, but there are no Revelations.

It is The Revelation of Jesus Christ.

There is not another Revelation but that of Jesus Christ.

Chan 03-16-2007 11:23 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by OGIA (Post 42758)
You're right, Chan. The BIG difference is that oneness theology holds the truth that Jesus Christ is the one and only God of eternity, that there is no other god but Him. The error in the baptismal practice came from that truth being subverted, not vice-versa.
But PAUL said there is one God and then he went on to identify that one God not as Jesus but as the Father. THEN he said there is one Lord and identified that one Lord as Jesus Christ (see 1 Corinthians 8:6).

OGIA 03-16-2007 11:40 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chan (Post 42835)
But PAUL said there is one God and then he went on to identify that one God not as Jesus but as the Father.
Let me know when the light comes on. :winkgrin


Quote:
THEN he said there is one Lord and identified that one Lord as Jesus Christ (see 1 Corinthians 8:6).
So, Jesus Christ is not God since He's not God the Father?

Plus, if Jesus Christ is the ONE Lord, what about the LORD (YHVH) of the OT? Can there be two? Scripture says there aren't. :nah

Chan 03-16-2007 12:46 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by OGIA (Post 42844)
Let me know when the light comes on. :winkgrin


So, Jesus Christ is not God since He's not God the Father?

Plus, if Jesus Christ is the ONE Lord, what about the LORD (YHVH) of the OT? Can there be two? Scripture says there aren't. :nah
Jesus is the name that applies ONLY to God's "only begotten Son" and, thus, only to Jesus' humanity. Thus, NO, Jesus' humanity is not God. The title "Christ" applies only to Jesus' humanity. Thus, NO, Jesus' humanity is not God.

OGIA 03-16-2007 12:51 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chan (Post 42860)
Jesus is the name that applies ONLY to God's "only begotten Son" and, thus, only to Jesus' humanity. Thus, NO, Jesus' humanity is not God. The title "Christ" applies only to Jesus' humanity. Thus, NO, Jesus' humanity is not God.
What part of Jesus IS God, Chan?



You forgot these:

Is Jesus Christ not God since He's not God the Father?

If Jesus Christ is the ONE Lord, what about the LORD (YHVH) of the OT? Are there and can there be two?

Chan 03-16-2007 01:19 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by OGIA (Post 42863)
What part of Jesus IS God, Chan?
The DIVINE part.



Quote:
You forgot these:

Is Jesus Christ not God since He's not God the Father?

If Jesus Christ is the ONE Lord, what about the LORD (YHVH) of the OT? Are there and can there be two?
The name Jesus applies ONLY to Jesus' humanity and Jesus' humanity is not God. The word LORD in all capital letters in the Old Testament is an INACCURATE translation of the Hebrew since YHVH does not mean "Lord."

OGIA 03-16-2007 01:36 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chan (Post 42887)
The DIVINE part.
So Jesus Christ had a split personality?

Where did this DIVINE part originate from? Was it a divinity separate from the Father?


Quote:
The name Jesus applies ONLY to Jesus' humanity and Jesus' humanity is not God.
Do you believe God became a man?


Quote:
The word LORD in all capital letters in the Old Testament is an INACCURATE translation of the Hebrew since YHVH does not mean "Lord."
Well, LORD is actually not a translation, either.

So, YHVH is not Lord then. Is that what you're saying?


One more, please: is Jesus Christ God at all?

Chan 03-16-2007 03:21 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by OGIA (Post 42899)
So Jesus Christ had a split personality?

Where did this DIVINE part originate from? Was it a divinity separate from the Father?
No, Jesus has two natures - one divine, one human.

Quote:
Do you believe God became a man?
I believe that the logos (Word) became man - which is what the Bible says (see John 1:14).

Quote:
Well, LORD is actually not a translation, either.
No, it's a replacement word much like the way the Jews would often say "adonai" instead of God's name.

Quote:
So, YHVH is not Lord then. Is that what you're saying?
The Jews often used the word adonai (Lord) to avoid sayiing God's name.


Quote:
One more, please: is Jesus Christ God at all?
His divinity is God's divinity; His humanity is not God. What part of that did you not understand before?

OGIA 03-16-2007 05:35 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chan (Post 43000)
No, Jesus has two natures - one divine, one human.
Where did this DIVINE part originate from? If from God, was it a divinity separate and different from the Father?


Quote:
I believe that the logos (Word) became man - which is what the Bible says (see John 1:14).
And the logos was God - which is what the Bible says (see John 1:1).


Quote:
The Jews often used the word adonai (Lord) to avoid sayiing God's name.
So, is YHVH not Lord?


Quote:
His divinity is God's divinity; His humanity is not God. What part of that did you not understand before?
I didn't understand the part you didn't answer: is Jesus Christ God at all and is Jesus Christ God in any way?

Joelel 03-16-2007 10:32 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chan (Post 42755)
I really don't think that's the biggest difference, particularly since trinitarians did baptize in the name of Jesus at least into the fourth century. The only way to reconcile Matthew 28:19 and what the Apostles did is to take "name" to mean "authority" and not "appellation." Since all power (authority) was given to Jesus in Matthew 28:18, it is easy to see why the Apostles interpreted Jesus' words in Matthew 28:19 to mean all authority belonged to Jesus and that they were to baptize with that authority.

Again, name refers to authority and not appellation.

Again, authority and not appellation.

I disagree with your conclusion that Jesus is a family name (what we would call a surname or last name).

I don't agree with this assessment.


The "family" refers to all those "in heaven and earth "

The biggest difference between oneness and at least the trinity doctrine of the Creeds is that the doctrine of the Creeds says, along with 1 Corinthians 8:6, that we believe in "one God" and go on to identify that one God as "the Father." Oneness essentially says, "There is one God, Jesus."
Hi Chan,Yes it's true that the name Jesus has the athority or power.If the name is not spoken then you would not know what name or athority was being used.So the name must be spoken.The scripture teaches they called on the name Jesus in baptism.Acts 22:16:And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized,and wash away thy sins,calling on the name of the Lord.

Here we have some casting out devils in Jesus name that the disciples didn't know.How did they know they was doing it in Jesus name if they were not speaking the name.Mark.9[38] And John answered him, saying, Master, we saw one casting out devils in thy name, and he followeth not us: and we forbad him, because he followeth not us.

Tell me who is this family ? Is it the Father God,His Son Jesus And the Holy Ghost and us and the angels or who? What is this name ? Eph.3:014 For this cause I bow my knees unto the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, 003:015 Of whom the whole family in heaven and earth is named

Who did the Son inherit his name from?.Heb.1:004 Being made so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they

Jesus didn't come in his own name.Jesus Said In 1 John 5 ;43. I am come in my Father's name, and ye receive me not: if another shall come in his own name,

Joelel 03-16-2007 10:47 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by OGIA (Post 42863)
What part of Jesus IS God, Chan?



You forgot these:

Is Jesus Christ not God since He's not God the Father?

If Jesus Christ is the ONE Lord, what about the LORD (YHVH) of the OT? Are there and can there be two?
Hi Ogia,I would say all of Jesus Is God.Act 20:28 Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood

Felicity 03-16-2007 10:56 PM
If we're not REALLY saved then we need to stop singing all the choruses and songs that say we are. Need a list?

Let's start with ......

Saved by Grace...I've been saved by grace, my name is in the Book of Life and my sins are wash away.

:)

OGIA 03-16-2007 11:33 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Joelel (Post 43215)
Hi Ogia,I would say all of Jesus Is God.
I agree 100%!!

Chan 03-17-2007 01:03 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Joelel (Post 43215)
Hi Ogia,I would say all of Jesus Is God.Act 20:28 Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood
So, you believe in the divine flesh heresy? Jesus was lying when He said He was going "to my God and to your God"?

Chan 03-17-2007 01:10 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Joelel (Post 43209)
Hi Chan,Yes it's true that the name Jesus has the athority or power.If the name is not spoken then you would not know what name or athority was being used.So the name must be spoken.The scripture teaches they called on the name Jesus in baptism.Acts 22:16:And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized,and wash away thy sins,calling on the name of the Lord.
NO! It isn't the NAME "Jesus" that has the authority (since the Hebrew version of it "Yehoshua" is also the name of the man who led the children of Israel into the promised land), it's the particular man who was given that name, i.e. the One that was born in that manger in Bethlehem, that did miracles and taught the people, that died on the cross for our sins, and that rose again from the dead. HE has the authority, not just His name.

Quote:
Here we have some casting out devils in Jesus name that the disciples didn't know.How did they know they was doing it in Jesus name if they were not speaking the name.Mark.9[38] And John answered him, saying, Master, we saw one casting out devils in thy name, and he followeth not us: and we forbad him, because he followeth not us.
Again, it's about the person having the authority. To say the authority is merely in the particular appellation turns the appellation into nothing more than a magical incantation and, thus, what one is doing is the sin of witchcraft.

Quote:
Tell me who is this family ? Is it the Father God,His Son Jesus And the Holy Ghost and us and the angels or who? What is this name ? Eph.3:014 For this cause I bow my knees unto the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, 003:015 Of whom the whole family in heaven and earth is named
You've answered your own question. Notice "the whole family in heaven and earth." The passage isn't talking about being given a surname (what we also call a last name or family name).

Quote:
Who did the Son inherit his name from?.Heb.1:004 Being made so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they
From GOD. Of course, you would have known that from reading the passage in context.

Quote:
Jesus didn't come in his own name.Jesus Said In 1 John 5 ;43. I am come in my Father's name, and ye receive me not: if another shall come in his own name,

Meaning simply that He came in His Father's AUTHORITY!

Felicity 03-17-2007 01:17 PM
Every time I read the title of this thread I think of this song...........

I'm saved and I know that I am
I'm saved and I know that I am
I'm saved and I know that I am
I'm so glad I know that I'm saved.


LOL! And we complain about repetition and simplicity of the lyrics of the new worship choruses we sing today. *roll eyes*

:D

Chan 03-17-2007 01:24 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by OGIA (Post 43101)
Where did this DIVINE part originate from? If from God, was it a divinity separate and different from the Father?
From God. There is only one "divinity" or "divine substance" and that substance belongs to God. Even the Nicene Creed says "We believe in one God" and goes on to say about Jesus' divinity that it is "of one essence with the Father." The Greek word they used was "homoousion" or same substance/essence. This is to be contrasted with Arius' claim that Jesus' divinity was "homoiousion," of similar essence/substance but not the same essence/substance. The difference between the two Greek words is merely the Greek letter iota, from which we get the saying "not an iota of difference" and variations thereof. The difference between the two doctrines is wider than the Grand Canyon. Those who formulated the Creed taught one divine substance (being) while Arius taught that Jesus, in terms of divinity, was someone other than God.


Quote:
And the logos was God - which is what the Bible says (see John 1:1).
And the logos, with regard to deity, was God. Yes, this is true to the extent that the logos refers only to God's revealed essence (what the Jews understood as the memra); another way to look at it is to understand the logos as the divine expression or God as He expresses Himself.


Quote:
So, is YHVH not Lord?
You are trying to commingle Jesus' divnity with His humanity. PAUL specifically applied the term Lord to the MAN Christ Jesus and did so in differentiating Jesus from the Father. The differentiation between God and Lord is not a differentiation of divinity but a differentiation between divinity and humanity.


Quote:
I didn't understand the part you didn't answer: is Jesus Christ God at all and is Jesus Christ God in any way?
I did answer it: "His divinity is God's divinity; His humanity is not God." You are confusing Jesus' divnity with His humanity and, in fact, are trying to mix the two together. You appear to be suggesting the divine flesh heresy, i.e. that Jesus' humanity is itself divine.


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