I believe in once saved, always saved!
 

Yes! I will tell you I believe in once saved, always saved.

Once I get to heaven and here Jesus say 'well done, thou good and faithful servant' I am once saved and always saved! :scripture

True... True...

What if you land in purgatory first? HMMMM?

Since we're cherry picking here, I think WBF has probably chosen to eliminate "Purgatory" from his possibilities.

How about this:

Eph 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:
Eph 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
Eph 1:5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
Eph 1:6 To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.
Eph 1:7 In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;
Eph 1:8 Wherein he hath abounded toward us in all wisdom and prudence;
Eph 1:9 Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself:
Eph 1:10 That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:
Eph 1:11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:
Eph 1:12 That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ.

We were "once saved, always saved" since before the foundation of the world!

Before you ever made a decision to live for God, God chose you to be "holy and without blame." He did this because it was His "good pleasure" to do so. Once you have obtained this "inheritance" you are predestined to be the "praise of glory" for Him who "worketh all things after the counsel of his will."

Once you understand this, you will understand Romans 9:16:

"So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy."

I believe in conditional eternal security. As long as I do my part, I can be secure. I grew up being eternally insecure. That's not a jab at my heritage, just that I didn't understand my standing with God.

Most of the instruction given to us in the epistles are in the form of verbs or words that denote an action like: pray, study, be thankful, walk, etc. So I agree that Christians do have 'things to do' but God does a greater part in perfecting us and keeping those that want to be kept. When we fail we can rest assured that God will help us get back up again, and again, and again....

Are we chosen by God's foreknowledge of the choice we would make to believe the gospel?

Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.1 Peter 1:2

For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified. Rom 8:29-30

You won't be saved from bumping into people who you do not like here on earth.

I think there will be a degree of punishment laid out to the saints.

You will have to spend the first 10 thousand years with so and so from this forum going round and round about......

You know that would be enough torment that I would do anything to avoid it! :toofunny

I had previously decided not to reply to this post, but I suppose everyone changes their mind once in a while.

It is my belief that you are taking the word "us" out of context. Paul was speaking to the church in Ephesus. He was not speaking to the individual. What Paul was saying here was that God has predestined that there is going to be a church; that there was going to be a body of Christ; that there was always going to be a group of believers. In other words, this does not affirm that God chose some individuals and reject others, but rather before the world was, before there was Jew or Gentile, God chose to have a people for himself.

Why did you stop at verse 12?

Eph 1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

If Paul was speaking to the individual in regards to predestination, why would there have to be trust? Why would there be a need to hear the word of truth or a response to believe? Did these individuals not have the choice to reject what they heard? Were they predestined to accept what was preached to them?

If God has predestined us unto salvation or eternal damnation, why would Peter write, “The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.”? (2 Pet 3:9) Why would God be longsuffering with the world if he had already predestined salvation unto chosen individuals? Why is he not willing that any should perish?

Why would Peter preach that “the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off (availability of the promise to the Gentiles)?

Romans 9:16 refers to when God is gracious, it is not because a human will (him that willeth), or a human work (him that runneth) lays him under obligation, and forces him to give, but the gift is of him, due to his mercy, which he has the right to bestow where he will. It is not a reference in any way to predestination.

As far as “once saved, always saved,” Peter also spoke of making your calling and election sure (2 Pet 1:10). The word he used was diligence. In fact, he said, “if you do these things (speaking of the fruits of the spirit), ye will not fall. Why would he reference a fall to those who already have obtained the faith (vs. 1) and escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust (vs.4)? Is it possible that one could have a falling away from Christ? Absolutely.

Why would Paul be so concerned with the church of Galatia in saying, “I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel?” If they had already received salvation through Paul’s ministry, surely “once saved, always saved” would cover them even if they were persuaded to false doctrine. If once saved, always saved was the rule, the letter to the Galations would never have been needed.

We could go on and on, unfortunately it is late here and I must be heading to bed. I will be glad to continue this discussion tomorrow should someone want to.

We were chosen by Him before we could ever do anything about it. Our response to the Gospel is the expected (expected by Him) outcome from the working of His grace and His Spirit upon our hearts.

The choice was made by God when we were otherwise helpless to choose for ourselves. That is the magnitude of His grace. (see for example Romans 9).

Kind of like how John the Baptism was chosen from his mothers womb and Saul was turned into Paul and God said, I HAVE CHOSEN YOU.

Also like how Jesus was chosen to be the lamb of God?

So when Paul said "us" he didn't really mean "us" as in "you guys in Ephesus" and "me, the apostle Paul?" Do you mean that there is some secret meaning to the pronoun "us" whenever it is used in the Epistles?

I believe that you are using a tactic NA Urshan used to preach from time to time. He would say, "The individual is not predestined, the church is!" I pretty much agreed with that for a time, until I really put some diligence into searching the matter out.

So, would you have me to believe that a "Personal God" has predestined an unknown and faceless entity and even God Himself will be surprised if you and I show up in heaven? Do you really think that we'll surprise Him?
Because the King James Bible is posted in its entirety on so many other Web sites, I thought that I would lighten the load on BOOMM's bandwidth. I think I'm a pretty swell guy for doing that.http://www.apostolicfriendsforum.com...cons/icon7.gif
uh... no offense, but are you ready for this right now? First you taunt me and then you come at me with this? Put the java on! :thumbsup

Do you as an individual "trust" God, at all? Wouldn't the fact that you "trust" God defeat your own argument here? Or do you have to get inside of a predestined church house in order to pray?

In answer to your questions above, yes! Of course! Now what point could you possibly have been trying to make?

Also, why did you stop at verse 13? Huh? Trying to hide verse 16 from your readers? Huh? Paul says, "[Paul] cease not to give thanks for you, making mention of you in my prayers." Who does he pray for? Does he pray for some nameless, faceless amorphous blob? When Tychicus wrote this letter was he really just some unknown immaterial entity? The individuals named in other epistles, were they also unknown to God?

Check out Jeremiah's experience: Jeremiah 1:4-5. God had a plan for this young man's life before he was ever born! I would humbly submit that the same is true for you! (Psalm 139:13-17).
I didn't think we were discussing Universalism here. But if you do support Universalism (the idea that all men will come unto repentence) then I suppose we could take it up elsewhere.

Also, why did God harden Pharoah's heart if it was really God's will for Pharoah to come unto repentence? (Romans 9:17-18). It seems to me that we are dealing with a fundamental paradox here, but more about that as we go on.
Because the promise had been made to "you" (the people Peter was addressing directly) Jeremiah 32:37-42; to their children Ezekiel 37:25 and Joel 2:28; and to all that are afar off Isaiah 59:19.

But wait! Why did you stop there??? Peter went on to say: "even as many as the Lord our God shall call." Do you see? Those that are saved by following Acts 2:38 are saved because God has graciously called them to salvation. This choice to call men (and ladies, but you know what I mean) to salvation was motivated by the "good pleasure" of His own will before the foundation of the world. Pentecost happened in 30 A.D. (or whatever calendar you want) because God willed it to happed before "Day 1" of Genesis!

I submit that your own personal Pentecost happened because God saw you before you ever were born and said "That young fellow is going to be in My Kingdom!"
Sure, but why did you quote only one verse of Romans 9? What about Romans 9:8-15? Notice especially Romans 9:11 - "before they were ever born..." The context IS about predestination. You're a smart guy, don't make assertions simply because you didn't like something in my post. Make assertions that fit the Word of God. I'm not that important. I really don't think God chose me from before I left my mother's womb just to get on your nerves. I'm holding out for a better calling than that. http://www.apostolicfriendsforum.com...cons/icon7.gif
Remember that old story about the "Two Surprises in Heaven?" The first surprise is the folks that you thought would make it and who didn't. The second surprise is those who did make it but you never thought they would. Is God in for some of these same "surprises?"

(At this point I suppose Process Theology comes up... but why put every one to sleep?)

Now, regarding who's who, is an awful judgment to make. Fortunately it's not a judgment that we have to make or that we even are allowed to make. It is His selection.
And to add to that, 2 Peter 1:10. Why would Peter say that individual believers should make their "election sure" through "diligence..."

Determinism and free will are two sides of the same coin. The paradox that they represent has been the source of debate for longer than there's been a Christian church, and there's no sign yet that their various advocates will ever resolve the issue.

I prefer to accept the paradox. We can't resolve the apparent contradictions, and for whatever reason, the Word of God takes up both sides equally! That's why I refer to it as "a coin." Imagine a coin with "free will" emblazoned on one side and "determinsism" (predestination) on the other. You can't really see both sides of the coin at once. You must inspect one side, then flip it over to inspect the other side.

So its is with these two doctrines. You can't really preach "free will" completely without leaving out some aspects of determinism, and vice-versa.
To share the whole package of God's salvation we need to encourage one another more. I do not think God is pleased when His people are a flock of quivering sheep frightened all the time that the wolf is about to get them. We need more power today. One source of that power is our own confidence "He which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ" (Philippians 1:6). He will perform! My ability to make it to that glorious day rests upon how well He performs! Do you have any idea how good that makes me feel? (Of course there's the "other side of the coin" too - I must be "diligent" - that is, "working" too). But the fact that I'm even in the race isn't because I'm so fast or I'm so strong; it's because it was His good pleasure to make me a victor in Jesus Christ.
Sleep well my friend. Have fun with your response, but don't laugh too loudly because with my schedule I'll probably be sleeping when you read this. http://www.apostolicfriendsforum.com...cons/icon7.gif

Well, Jesus is a special case. God foresaw Himself answering the questions and the settling the issues that came up in Genesis 3. (Isaiah 7:14).

The statement "Jesus was chosen to be the lamb of God" is usually made to expound upon the teachings of Adoptionism. That is, God saw a really good man in the water with John one day and so then God declared, "this is My Beloved Son..." On that day God "adopted" a simple man from Galilee to be His metaphorical "son" and the "lamb" that would be "sacrificed."

Contrary to Adoptionism, I believe that God Himself dwelt within Jesus Christ bodily. That Jesus Christ was both completely a human being, and yet simultaneously "God manifest in the flesh" (1 Timothy 3:16).

The issues surrounding His experiences are the issues of my Lord. And while He chose to humble Himself and to partake of many of the afflictions that each of has has borne, there really are not many one-to-one correlations that can be easily made between Him and us. He is our God, we are His people.

We were chosen by him BEFORE the world was created. But why did he choose us? God is no respecter of persons and He doesn't pull names out of a hat (He's not arbitrary as in this definition: Determined by chance, whim, or impulse, and not by necessity, reason, or principle: stopped at the first motel we passed, an arbitrary choice. )

I agree that our response is expected by God because it was foreknown of Him. He knew Esau would sell his birthright. That, I believe, is why he loved Jacob and hated Esau. Before we were actualities, he knew us as actualities because of His foreknowledge, He based His calling us and electing us to eternal life. Before we actually did anything (works), He called us because of His perfect foreknowledge.


I don't feel like you answered my question so I'll ask it again: Are we chosen by God [according to His] foreknowledge of the choice we would make to believe the gospel?

Yes we are, but that's only a part of it. We are chosen because of His love and grace for us. We are chosen because it was His "good pleasure" to choose us.

We have to consider God's motivations here. And since these motivations are declared in Scripture it is an important part of the discussion. He chose us, not only because He saw that we would eventually "line up." That aspect in fact isn't even emphasized by Paul or the other writers cited.

The part that Paul and the others emphasize is the motivation of God in making this election. That motivation was love.

I have already extended an apology to Pelathais for my previous post, because I do believe that some of his points do have merit. It was not my intention to either taunt or offend him. So in the spirit of some of the most spoken words in the NFL, "After further review" (and more consultation on my part), I hope that I can still add some to this discussion.

The possibility for "everyone" to be saved does exist - predestination, if you will - because He has established His plan of salvation for whosoever will, and nothing more must occur (on His part) for each of us to be saved. However, on the flip side of Pelathais' coin, it is the exercising of faith by the sincere believer that "opens the door" to God's gracious salvation.

A gracious God has predestinated us to be a part of His glorious church - all of us - He is no respector of persons - yet, we can choose not to be a part of that wonderful body - by simply not believing (having faith in Him as Savior and Lord)...there is a tremendous amount of irony and paradox here..in that...Pelathais is correct.

I am not sure he is arguing that we are "once saved, always saved." He is just explaining his "two sides of the coin" concept.

If any of this is taken away from your purpose, Pelathais, please redeem me. ;)

I don't believe in Calvinism,but I do believe in Election of Grace,however I believe in the whosoever will verses as well.

Election is a Bible doctrine,and we should not be afraid of anything in the bible,if it wasn't for the election or choosing by grace, nobody could be saved.

So please tell me more about election if you feel led to.

Thanks.

I just knew this topic would be in debate.

I'll challenge that assertion.

No you you didn't. You had no idea.

So there. http://www.apostolicfriendsforum.com...cons/icon7.gif

The ultimate redemption of all, with curative punishment is the only position that answers all the questions. Just like a loving and wise parent, God calls and seeks and endlessly pursues the ultimate surrender of each of His creation. Some thru the fire, and some thru the flood, but all thru the blood the He once and for ALL shed for all creatures, on earth, under the earth, in heaven and ALL that are in them.

With man it is impossible, yet thru God ALL things are possible.

First of all,

PELATHIAS,

Just wondering if you need any help here. Having a conversation with more than one person can be confusing.

It's not a matter of it being impossible...but rather a manner of His purpose.

a

I get confused talking to myself, let alone others. I hear so many voices crying out at once, all demanding my attention... :ouch And that's just when I'm alone!

Election simply put means choosing or chosen,God chose to use grace as the means of our redemption.The elect in scripture can mean saved Jewish believers such as when the scripture in ROMANS speak about a remnant according to the election or choosing by grace.
Also the elect can be the church,such as when the scripture tells us to make our calling and election sure.
Grace is soverign in the fact,that God shows His mercy to who evers He wills to.

Man can reject the grace of God,or submit to it.
If God in His soverignity doesn't send His Spirit to draw one to Himself,they can't come to God.
God's will is for all to come to repentance,but yet God knows the end from the beginning or the beginning from the end.
In the book of ACTS it speaks of the predeterminate counsel and foreknowledge of God.
So words like foreordained,election,predestination are all Bible words.
If Grace is not soverign,then it's not Grace at all.

God's purpose is according to the election of grace,let whosoever will come and partake freely of the river of life.

I must say- it is refreshing for someone to speak truth, wow. This happens when one can study the Word with a pure heart without the boundaries of organized religion.

Thank you!

I believe it is always the purpose of a wise and good father to parent his children to be persons of character and goodness.

If God does this for His children they will all/everyone eventually reach that conclusion.

Me thinks that you don't want to go into this in any depth. That's fine. I will ask this though....

Which one was His child, Esau or Jacob??

God bless,
a

Scott Hutchinson,

A few questions,


Romans 8:28-30,

Who does the choosing in these verses??

John 6:37, those who are given...will they refuse to come??

II Peter 3:9, Is the "anyone" and "everyone" the same "you" with which God is patient with or are they the "scoffers" and those who "follow their own evil desires"??? If it's everyone, including those in verse 3-7, then what's the purpose of Peter making a distinction between the "you" in verse 9 and the "them" in verses 3-7?? Wouldn't God be showing patience with both categories if Peter's meaning in verse 9 was that God's will is for everyone (in the whole world) to come to repentance?? Isn't the better interpretation that the "anyone" and "everyone" in the last two clauses the "you" in the second??

I agree with this...but if grace is not irresistible then it has no power, therefore it is not sovereign.

a

Are you a disciple? According to Luke 14:26?

Luke 14:26
"If anyone comes to me and does not hate his father and mother, his wife and children, his brothers and sisters—yes, even his own life—he cannot be my disciple.

A few thousand years of punishment never hurt anybody! :D

Since He was using hyperbole, yes Im a disciple according to Luke 14:26.

What's your point??:confused:

a

Even my cow doesn't believe, once in grass, always in grass...

If you can hate father, mother, wife, children, brother and sister without really "hating" them. I think God can "hate" Esau without really hating him.

Both are analogies, hope you get the point, hyperbole in both cases.

Hyperbole and analogy are two different things...so to call them both an analogy and a hyperbole is not warranted.

Anyway, what in the text gives you the idea that Paul is using hyperbole, other than the fact that you don't like a God that would hate, really hate, anybody??

Is Paul using hyperbole when he says that God loves Jacob??

Does God "love" Jacob without really "loving" him??

When does the hyperbole begin and end with you??

Maybe Paul is using hyperbole on both occasions...God doesn't really "hate" Esau and He doesn't really "love" Jacob. Maybe He's just indifferent to both of them, which means if you run Paul's argument to it's logical end, using hyperbole, God chooses based on His indifference which makes Him arbitrary. God has no purpose in election. Since now He's arbitrary, how can it be said that He hates evil?? Does He??

See my point??

a

Noticed you didn't touch my point, the comparison of the two scriptures. The hyperbole or analogy aside, the use of the word hate is a figure of speech.

i don't just try to answer a question, I try to prove my answer (It drives me up the wall when some just make statements without ever intending to prove it). I regret that I didn't make myself clear to you but I just assumed that you would be able to see that I rejected your contention that Paul was using hyperbole. And if I disagreed with you then naturally Paul, I believe, was really saying God hated Esau.

So I don't see any reason for juxtaposing what Paul said and the verse you quoted.

Its irrelevant for a multitude of reasons.

I hope that is considered me touching your point.

Its invalid.

a

My friend,augustian God certainly does the foreknowing in ROM.8:29.
I have and read a book by RC.Sproul on reformed theology which does have some valid points in it.In the book of Galatians Paul writes and mentions being fallen from grace,now how can someone fall from grace,if they never abided in grace ? SEE GAL.5:4
I believe in elective grace ,but I also believe in free-will both are taught in the Bible.
Calvinism and Areminianism both take truths to an extreme.