The UPCI OFFERING BENEFITS TO ITS MEMBERS
 

Is it finally going to happen? Do you think the UPCI will finally step up and offer a benefits package to its ministers including health/life insurance, 401k, retirement support, pensions?

Do you think several Tulsa recruits could be persuaded to stay with the mothership if they were offered benefits?

Why are elderly UPCI preachers allowed to waste away without financial support in their senior years after all that they have contributed?

Why do preacher's wives and children have to go without insurance because their husband don't have "company" health insurance?

I'm sure the old timers knew the sacrifice they were making. I never heard them say they would have done otherwise.

Rev. V.A. Guidroz, C. G. Weeks, Bro. C.L. Dees, etc. etc. All these men died without any kind of retirement plan or health care in their senior years. Even when Headquarters was made aware of Bro. Dees's situation, little or no support was offered. Is that okay?

When a pastor founds a church and works to take it from fledgling stage to fully operating and thriving work then a younger preacher comes and takes over the operations of the church, shouldn't the younger paster ensure that the founding pastor is taken care of in their waning years? Wouldn't that be the appropriate and right thing to do?

(Especially when the promise is made publicly to support the founding pastor until death.)

My father never expected to get anything from the UPC....and planned accordingly.

Yes it would.......but

Maybe it would be a good thing to implement these programs now that the UPCI is no longer a spring chicken. It is a well-established organization and it's about time they put some benefits on the table for their members.

That does happen in some cases.

Those and a thousand more just like them. Is it OK. No, not really.

So how 'bout it...do think this could ever be a possibility with the UPCI?

What is your financial plan to make all of this appear? Is the health insurance premiums going to come from ministerial dues, district tithes, maybe Sheaves for Christ? A 401K requires the minister to participate, not just "the company." I just want to know where you are going to get this money.

I'm no financial guru. I'm asking the peeps if this could ever be a possibility.

Where would they get the funds to do this? The ministers would most likely have to pay into the deal in order to partake.

Anybody have a viable plan?

I guess I don't understand why the UPCI should automatically be responsible for minister's health insurance.

I own a business and pay for my own health insurance. It comes directly from my salary.

If the church one is serving provides health, 401k, and IRA plans - great, if not, do it yourself. I am sorry that many have failed to plan, it is sad and certainly not limited to preachers.

I still do not see why there should be a guaranteed entitlement.

Right there are no "free" entitlements. While group insurance costs less in therory it is not always true.

My point exactly. One of my best friends does this on a regular basis for evangelists, ministers, and pastors on a regular basis. There are certified financial planners throughout the organization that provide the very services you describe, getting them group rates on health insurance, making retirement decisions based on their ministerial income, setting up college funds and retirement funds through the private sector. Creating an in-house plan would likely be more restrictive in its options for the minister, generate more administrative costs for the UPC, and would be less desirable option to what the minister could get by dropping by his local CFP office.

Investing is a serious decision and should not be solely made on the basis of a forum post. Please read and understand the complete forum syllabus prior to making such a decision.

You are correct, of course. However this does point out the complexity of the issue. In your earlier posts you mentioned a benefits package offered by the national/international org. The UPC is made up of autonomous churches and ministers. To address the issues you've raised it really is best to address it on the local level.

When a local congregation or a new pastor takes upon themselves the promise to support the retiring pastor, then yes they should follow through. Usually the monies involved are in some sort of tax exempt structure that would prevent the "new guy" from interfering with the distribution without incurring huge penalties and perhaps criminal prosecution.

If you're not dealing with a savings type of a setting, but rather a promise to provide a "salary" or living expenses from the church's regular income then things get trickier. Was there a contract or other legally binding document that describes this arrangement? If so, the any disagreement can be settled in court if need be. Was it just a "verbal agreement?" It may still be binding, but the case is harder.

Is a "new guy" responsible for taking care of all the "old timers?" Ideally, yes! Legally? No, not always.

The present "entrepreneurial" system works, sort of (please note: "sort of"). One church where I had worked, the pastor and his wife were covered by a health insurance plan paid for by the church. I (the only other full time staff) was covered by my wife's health insurance from her job.

To ask the church to provide me with what I was already getting would have involved the church paying much more than the premium we paid to my wife's employer's plan. Since the church was the goal of all of our collective activities we often discussed things in terms of "What will be the least burden on the church and the saints?" This was a medium to larger sized UPC church and yet no one was living even close to "riches."

At the end of the day, the UPC does not write the checks for its ministers. They are only the licensing body for ministers...not their employers.

I think it is up to the individual church to make sure their pastor and his family (children UP TO 18!) have health care and contribute into some type of retirement for them. They work for the church and the church should do this for them. I do not think it is the UPCI's responsibility to do so. They are not the employers of these ministers.

There are some pastors out there that get little or no tithes.

Oh no, now they're union! J/K

pelathais & SoCaliUPC, correct me if I am wrong, don't I remember "back in the day" some UPC certified financial planners used to go around and counsel on these issues? My memory fails me, but I do seem to remember either that.

Or maybe it was "Bro. "So&So" is in the district preaching and he happens to be a CFP. He is offering a workshop on insert title here"

Counsel who is one question.

I do not know of this....does not mean it did not happen.

Then I am sure, those pastors are also working a secular job as well.

Dora,

The things you listed are not free. Someone has to pay. In recent years the UPC national organization / denominiation has had financial difficulties, not "extra" money.

I do believe that the org. should offer ministers a group 401k or whatever the apropriate retirement fund would be for ministers to contribute to but the funds going into it would have to come from the minister himself or the church he pastors. The national org. does not have money to match or contribute.

The same holds true for life insurance and health insurance. The org. can offer a group plan but the full cost of the plan has to be borne by the licensed minister who wants to participate or his church. (I do believe there is some sort of small life insurance policy included with the dues for General license and Ordained ministers if I remember correctly).

I don't fault the org. for the situations you listed. Those churches and those disricts in the case of District officials should have had the foresight and sense to have made a provision for those men's retirement. I realize that for many years Pentecost was a sect primarily on the "wrong side of the railroad tracks" with not much money but it is hard to believe how so many elder ministers have gotten to retirment age with nothing set aside.

In the case of small churches and itinerent preachers it is understandable but any established church of any size should have retirement plans / funds in place for the Pastor and full time staff.

It did happen for a short time SoCali. I never heard much of it on a national scale. I think if I remember the username on NFCF was Preach. I don't think this good brother has visited us here on AFF.

My wife's grandfather realized after a crippling heart attack that his wife was going to be in serious trouble if he passed. He implored his son to NOT invest in Parsonages, and to set something away incase his son's wife was suddenly a widow. Not too many of these topics are taught in Minister Training classes.

Let's see- $7 Million pledged for Mission- $2.58 Million comes in. Seems that funding a 401K would then be a pipedream too, if they cannot even send in what they pledged. I would not want to retire on shifting sands like that.

There are too many variables for a blanket retirement/health plan for ministers in the Organization.

First of all some pastors are working secular jobs to to keep the church afloat till they grow. Financially out of the question for them to be involved.

Second Scenario: Pastor is a very astute investor and has created a diversified portfolio of investments that would make a startup alternative offered from the UP pale in comparison.

Bottom Line: as your church grows and you invest in people the money will come in and then you create a working game plan for your future and your spouse as well.

If your church dont grow then find a way to create passive income for later on and maybe consider a job that has benefits.

Sure it is sad to see the elders that have given to the Lord so many years and now have nothing.
I was preached to as a kid that i would never even marry because the rapture would come first.

Thats been 30 years ago so maybe that has been a factor in some of the fine men of God.

On the other hand i know of pastors that are not household names and have modest size churches 60-100 that have been incredibly wise and have created streams of income that comes from outside the church.

I make my living from churches but am not on a salary or staff. I have no idea what i will make from week to week. I have been living this way since 1992.

10 years ago i began to take steps to create a long term plan to make my twilight years more comfortable when i realized that the bottom line is no one will take care of me when i get old!!

You Have To Take Care Of Yourself!!!!!!!!

There were a variety of "outreaches" and educational attempts made over the years. I distinctly remember at GC in Indianapolis (1991?) a couple of different speakers during the closed ministers sessions were given a lot of time to address tax issues, estate planning and the like.

Some guys actually stood up to the mike and asked what they should do to become "legit" after years of working off the books. They were concerned about facing some real problems because they handled the money "the way they had been taught." That often seems to have involved little if any reporting of income. This discussion is why I remember the very place I was sitting when I heard it. Several brothers passed out cards and offered services. And to think, Eric Dickerson used to run up and down that same floor where I was sitting.

But yes, there was also estate planning and legal advice given. There's always at least some sort of "tid bit" given at any such meeting.

Are you still blathering about that offering? It may very well be that some of the pledges wound up in various 401k accounts instead of being sent to HQ and the missions field.

By the way to Dora's point about elderly ministers being destitute I would like to add to my previous post that we have sadly learned that private arrangements for a retirement stipend paid for by the church and subsequent pastors is subject to being violated, terminated or otherwise not honored.

A church and pastor should have a set amount each month that is contributed to a 401k, IRA, annuity, or whatever else formal retirement product would insure that the money is safe, secure, and dedicated to that task. That way the pastors retirement is not at the whim of subesequent pastors or the future financial health of the church. There have been cases where churches made obligations with honest intent but later the church split or otherwise had financial difficulty and could not honor those promises. ONe more reason a formal investment in retirement funds as you pastor is a must! Steve Epely has had some good comments on this subject in the past and perhaps he will see this thread and jump in.

This is great! The responses have been very informative food for thought.

So the organization is not responsible for the financial well-being of its ministers. Wouldn't it be wise to provide some sort of guidelines for churches to follow concerning financial support of the pastor? Not that the org should be enforcers of the plan, just provide them as a courtesy. This would be especially helpful for pastors of smaller churches or younger ministers who step into an elder's shoes.

Maybe many pastors plan on pastoring until they die. They don't take into consideration that they may encounter health problems that may force them to retire. This happened with my father.

My father took advantage of pastors not being required to pay social security as part of their annual income taxes. He looked at it as saving the church money.

We he had his stroke, he suddenly was unable to preach or pastor, and was left without any social security income. Luckily, the church made provisions for him to retire with a monthly payment of $1000.

This forced my mother to find work at age 62 to suppliment their income.

When my father died, mom was left with no social security. It appeared like she would have to work until she died to support herself.

Thankfully, the church has continued to pay the $1000 per month retirement to her so far. There were times when that was in jeopordy, but things have seemed to be consistant.

My brothers and I convinced her to retire at age 70. She had built up a social security monthly income of $275 since she started working. As long as the church continues to pay the $1000 per month, she can survive.

Very wisely, my mom put away part of her income when she was working to put into retirement funds through Walmart. She even bought some Walmart stock. She spends that money in emergency cases such as her recent surgery.

C.G. Weeks received a house just North of Tioga on the highway from the District and a stiphend also. It is my impression that Viley Guidroz did too...not sure about the house. It was a very nice, though modest home in Houston area. I was honored to have visited with him there a number of times, enjoying great fellowship.

C.L. Dees...well, that's another case. Don't want to open up THAT closet.

But, yes. There should be a collective effort to provide a much better benefit package for all contributing ministers.

This is a very sticky situation as a dear friend umm well.. a pastor I know had a home he had purchased with his own income he had saved up ... Not monies of the church. He lived in a little one bedroom apartment for the first 4 years he pastored in our area just to save some money. Bought a very nice house back then (its still really nice due to being kept well) and maintained it well for over 25 years. Another pastor came in and somehow got the nerve to say that this house now belonged to him (the pastor had deeded the house to the church as he believed anything that was his was the churches also and he wanted to know that if he died and she died it would be in good hands..) WRONG! This pastor made said Sr Pastor and wife move out of this home and took it as his own.

Fortunately the board took aside an amount of money they had put away (they saw this coming for a few months) and were able to purchase them a new home. This home is where they live now. They lost the other house and needless to say the church got rid of that pastor real quick like. All of this while the Sr Pastor was in the most major medical battle of his life. He now has a wonderful pastor there who is more than a blessing. And the church is continuing to take care of him well. He also has money set back so that when he does completely retire (I dont think will ever happen) or when he passes his wife will have plenty to live on. The church also purchased insurance for him and her. He has pastored and Started a few churches and learned fast that you had to watch out for retirement early on and did well in doing this.

I look at the ministry as being self-employed and it is their responsibility to obtain insurance and save for retirement benefits…not the organization. If a pastor is paid a salary through a board in a church, then they should offer some type of insurance/retirement as well.

I understand that younger ministers can’t afford to save much, but usually those in the ministry for a while have been successful enough in most cases to save more. Personally, as a single mom, I am considered low income, and I save 4% of my income for retirement….so even in cases where they don’t make much, money should be saved… it is good stewardship.

I know that it can be done as my parents who were in the ministry for over 40 years prepared for their future. My mother is currently in an assisted living facility (Alzheimers) where she is self pay. She has my father’s SS and his retirement from the church he pastored for 36 years. In addition, she has lived the last 9 years on IRAs and other savings that they chose to save and invest of the finances God blessed them with when they were younger.

As far as Health Insurance.. as a kid, we had health insurance through the UPC… it was J.F. Malloy… because I remember presenting the card to the Dr. office as a teenager. I think that they can’t afford the insurance plans now, and I totally understand.

That isn’t unusual.. many companies today can’t afford health plans and have had to go with very high deductible plans to even insure their employees. My own company which is in the medical field has a high deductible plan and we are encouraged to pay into a health savings plan to help. We are also counseled every year on weight management and healthy lifestyles. They also strongly encourage us to participate in the wellness center so that they qualify for a discount on our insurance.

Medical costs are through the roof and it is affecting many companies and some companies are not offering it as a benefit all together… so, UPCI not even being an employer shouldn’t be put down for not offering insurance anymore.

Paw Paw Guidroz was supplied a certain amount, but not enough for him and Maw Maw to live on. Paw Paw was an astute man regarding finances. His savings got him through retirement.

I'm not saying the district didn't do nice things for him. But he had to make it on his own resources in the end. Which is fine.

But I'm thinking it would be nice for the org to step in (to a certain extent) when things go south for one of their elders.

Well, thanks for setting me straight on this issue. I appreciate all the feedback.