I've Seen It Before...Now Once More
 

It is so sad...but for what cause? Could it be that one group is just a little more holy or a little more special in God's eyes than the other group? I think not. But what is really a tear jerker is to see the bitterness that always seem to follow.

A group of preachers with their congregations pull out of fellowship with the UPC. Congregations that were intertwined with extended blood famlies, marriage, children and grandchildren are ripped apart by indoctrinated suspicions of each by preachers on either side. Suspicions and subsequent division grows in the families.

Yes, I've seen it all before. Family reunions that used to be so sweet and special are no longer. Famlies are told not to associate with the other members of families on the other side of the divide. Church members and yes even close blood relatives will not speak to each other. I've seen them meet in grocery stores, malls and various places. When they spy each other, they grow cold, not even acknowledging the presence of the other church or family member. Yes, I've seen it all before.

Preachers who at once had sweet and blessed fellowship are no longer speaking to each other and scarcely have little to say complimentary of the other. Sometimes titanic intercity struggle errupts to carry away church members on the other side of the divide. Family members are enlisted to help in the pursuit. Two preachers who at once had great fellowship will ignore each other when face to face in a familiar restaurant. I have seen it before.

It now saddens me as I look upon the Apostolic landscape to see it all unfolding again as before. I grieve over the families that will be broken up. I grieve over the bitterness that will fester among the people of God. I grieve over the broken trust and fellowship. I grieve over the lost souls who will be lost to eterity...perhaps millions extrapulated over a hundred years or more Yes, millions of souls lost, directly as a result of this terrible, diabolical division that is now erupting among us. I can substantiate that number.

If there be someone reading this that is swept up by this heat wave of carnality and psuedo-holiness stand, I appeal to you on behalf of the body of Christ that shall not be divided to consider not following after the pathway of division, distrust, bitterness and destruction.

Indeed, I've seen it all before. It is not pretty. The consequences are not worth the obstinance of the fool's glory. I plead that you will reconsider for the sake of Christ, families, the church and the Spirit and bond of Peace.

Apprehended -- well written and well put. The sad part is the consequences are always than what could be imagined. I have seen it on several occasions.

Raven, Fab...

For me, it has also struck close to home...in my own extended family. One cousin and his family got so holy that they could not even bear to look at another saint on the other side of the divide. They got so super-holy that they would no longer have anything to do with the rest of us.

I've seen women with long hair, long dresses that would drag out their own tracks just GLARE at each other in Wal-Mart bristling with contempt.

I think there are many of us who are grieved.

It has become so easy in our quest for whose right and whose wrong, even as groups, to forget that holiness in an inward attribute that is seen outwardly. The dress and the facade are in place, but the heart is so far gone. We need to remember, holiness sets us apart, not above.

Wow!

The quote of the day...

"Holiness sets us apart, not above."

Apprehended...

If only tolerance and compromise were STILL interpreted as good things!

tol·er·ate (verb)(used with object)

1. to allow the existence, presence, practice, or act of without prohibition or hindrance; permit.
2. to endure without repugnance; put up with

com·pro·mise (verb)(used with object)

1. to agree to settle
2. to agree, when complete agreement is not possible, to an alternative solution
3. to reach a common accord, position or agreement instead of alienation
4. to bind by bargain or agreement mutually beneficial to both sides

We tolerate our loved ones and family...and still love them
We compromise in our marriage...and still love each other
We tolerate coworkers on the job...but stay employed
We compromise on the thermostat setting...but don't leave the room
We tolerate the red light...but wait until it turns green
We compromise on the price of a used car...but don't steal it

:stirpot

We SHOULD tolerate the convictions of others...without demonizing them
We SHOULD compromise on a nonbiblical issues...without denigrating each other
We SHOULD tolerate our brother...without disowning him
We SHOULD compromise on service style...without losing truth
We SHOULD tolerate a different approach...without questioning motives
We SHOULD compromise our opinions...without breaking principles

Tolerance is an attribute of the Child of God...
And Compromise is often, but not always, the preferred alternative to Battle...

How big is this phenomenon? Do you have percentages of relationships that have been ripped or are being ripped apart? Our little corners of the world aren't necessarily representative of the whole, no matter how much you portray them as such.

When things cool down, people will be fine. Thanks to the internet and forums to inflame issues that used to die down in a timely manner.

tell that to the families involved when the AMF guys pulled out in the 60's. nothing timely about how that calmed down.

Sorry to say, Jekyll, but a lot of them will not be fine. Many of us who have been around for awhile have seen this situation repeated and repeated and there are a lot of innocent bystanders who are wounded...some fatally.

Thank you, Apprehended, for the kind, sincere, and honest post that opened this thread. I too have seen families torn apart by such as this--bewildered, frustrated and hurt. I know fathers, sons and grandsons who, in the past, have been split by such actions. I truly wish no such meeting as Tulsa were scheduled.

Rev. Buddy, I appreciate the truth in these remarks.

On the other hand, probably all of us have a point at which we will say: This is so far beyond what I think is right, that I cannot in good conscience fellowship here. I must go elsewhere. I don't see how the Tulsa brethren have come to that conclusion, but perhaps they have. Perhaps in their eyes, the UPCI is so off-track they feel compelled to leave.

Would it not be better, though, to quietly leave and cause no harm to those who are left.

I hesitate to even tell this… after so many years it remains an open wound.

I guess it has been nearly 13 years.

Just after my dear sweet wife and I married, the church we both grew up in split. Her family compromised leadership of one side of the split, my father was the leader of the board that stood behind the pastor.

For those that have gone thru such an event, I don’t need to continue.

Hard does no justice to this journey. By the Grace of God, we as a couple have remained on the same page, and while having taken a stand firmly behind the right way of doing things, we have suffered for it.

Words like “ well if I die, I don’t even want them to tell you because I don’t want you to have to come to our church!”

“you support liars!”

And all manner of things that I just cannot bring my self to say.

Splits of this nature tear at the fabric of a family! People justify their actions with some kind of “righteous indignation” that in reality is a stench in the nostrils of God.

By prayer and the blessings of God we maintain relationships with those who chose a course we deemed wrong, but only because of deep sincere desire to maintain those relationships, in spite of, and in the face of constant pressure to accept the unacceptable.

I cry for all of those who will be hurt by this. There will be many and it will be ugly.

I am sure those leaving will say they have been hurt too. God knows that is true. God knows the rest of us don’t want you to violate your convictions. At the end of the day, everyone will claim to be “right”. Everyone will claim they have been “validated” by the Spirit of God.
Everyone will stand with righteous indignation when challenged by those they oppose. And the hurt will continue until all the players are dead and in the grave.

And it will all be done in the Name of God.

BRAVO!! If this thread was closed right now, enough has been said.

:scoregood:scoregood:scoregood

Sorry, Ferd, didn't mean to imply that it doesn't happen and that it isn't heartbreaking when it does happen.

On the other hand, I found the opening post to be a bit dramatic. Obviously not every church or family has been faced with these horrible events.

I wish that....

Oh well, I wish that I were taller, too.

I don't think what is happening now and what happened in the late 60's with the AMF is the same thing. At least not yet.

Men were tossed out of the UPC in the 60's, and evicted from churches that they had personally built because they refused to not fellowship conservative independent men.

There's Hundreds of Apostolic Churches in this world.
Can you name two Pastors that will agree on every issue of what's right or wrong.

If it's our FRIENDS we are tolerant..it it's our ENEMY they are so wrong!!

I know Pastors that preach it's wrong to curl your hair, pluck your eyebrows, wear certain colors, go to amusement parks, wear your dresses to long, your sleeves have to be below the elbow, some think they should be to the wrist, you can wear a watch, you can't wear a watch, you can wear a wedding ring, you can't wear a wedding ring, women's hair has to be up, some it has to be down, you have to be in our group, you can't be in that group...etc!!!

I know there's some lines you can't cross..They are Heaven or Hell issues...but what's wrong with just living for God and stop all of the picking and back biting that goes on in this world.

Ferd:

I'm amazed at your post...not just for it's clarity and frankness, but because you and I share more in common that I had ever imagined...God bless you for your powerful thoughts and you have my prayers and mutual support...

and my heartfelt respect...you're a brother and a friend...

I would like to add that as one whom has read many forums discussons, like many here have, , I for one am TIRED of the attitude that considers anyone that dresses the part {so to speak} to NOT be "holy" inside, well that is plain just NOT truth!

I believe that those who do not wish to "dress the part" are the ones mad at those who do want to, because they 'think' it makes them look worse, and so as they "think" so they are., people would do well in the interest of united brethren to just accept one another as they are or wish to be without planting seeds of suspicion, distrust and so forth.

It begins and ends with EACH individual saint., pointing fingers is not the way to foster good relations with all bro's and sis's., no one is all the way perfect or 'there' we should hold each other UP and not bring anyone down., even those some might consider to be acting as if ABOVE, thoughts such as that come from satan., the author of all lies and divisions.
Just my :2cents:

This, I have seen firsthand. There are folks who don't darken church doors now...

Ferd, thank you.

Ferd...

I appreciate your post. I've seen what you are referring to more times that I can tell you about. I've been through church splits and seen have full of bitterness people become toward each other.

I was in a church that split right down the middle when the assistant pastor stood up in church one Sunday Morning and made a dramatic show. He walked away with half the church. Now more than 45 years later, both churches are UPC but many wounds never healed. Most of the leaders are now in their graves having never reconcilled.

I've seen other similar situations. Since that first split that, I've prayed that I will never have to see another one. It is very horrible.

Now, it appears that we have a developing chasm from coast to coast. I had hoped that I would never see such a thing in my life time. I am concerned that the ugly consequences are going to be far reaching, except the love of God prevails. After all, is not the love of God shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Ghost?

Anyway, thank you Ferd for opening up your heart.

AMEN...could it be that in the midts of all this debate we are loosing the main focus of what the church is about? I'm sure that hell is laughing....

Political or religious separation seldom leaves two neutral parties. Remember the Civil War? One side said they wanted to separate after an Anti-slavery president was elected. It was the straw that broke the camels back.

Of course, the issue was really an old one, the right of States to govern themselves. So the stated issue was not the real issue, and both sides knew it. Power or control are often the overriding principles when groups fracture.

There was no neutrality allowed. Both had to defend their positions and families were caught in the middle. There are still hard feelings today.

As Shakespere showed, it is difficult to remove a pound of flesh without shedding a little blood.

St. Matt, I spent some time thinking about this. Two players in that series of events were two of the greatest preachers in pentecost. One on each side of the divide. Both did all in the Name of God.


I wonder.