Holiness?
 

I saw someone with this signature hereabouts.

Have to disagree with the last phrase. Jesus was made holiness for me. If I have Jesus, I have holiness. All I have to practice to be holy is obedience for salvation. :)

I have to work holiness out into my behaviour, but I already have holiness, as such, before I do ANYTHING for the Lord. :)



Thoughts?

Yes if one has the Holy Ghost then you have a Holy Spirit abiding within you, but you must grow in grace,and you can choose to do right or do wrong.
You can yield to the Holy Ghost or quench the Spirit.

Right. BEING holy is not predicated upon my behaviour. ACTING holy is.

Holiness which without no man shall see the Lord.

Thank God my holiness AND my rightousness is not predicated on me but on what Jesus did for me.

Because of my gratitude to him I shall endevour to live a life pleasing to the Lord.

I know that my holiness and my rightousness is as filthy rags, but thank God that Christ is all suffcient for me.

I pray that more Apostolic could understand this.

It sounds like you are confusing holiness with righteousness.

Holiness is perfected in us.


Cor.2:6: Howbeit we speak wisdom among them that are PERFECT: yet not the wisdom of this world, nor of the princes of this world, that come to nought: 7: But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory

Eph:4:11: And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;12:For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ
13:Till we all come in the unity (ONE) of the FAITH, and of the KNOWLEDGE of the Son of God, unto a PERFECT man, unto the MEASURE of the STATURE of the FULLNESS of Christ:
Heb.10:14: For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.

We grow into a greater state of perfection.Heb.6:1: Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works (sin), and of faith toward God


Luke8:14: And that which fell among thorns are they, which, when they have heard, go forth, and are choked with cares and riches and pleasures of this life, and bring no fruit to perfection

2 Cor.7:1: Having therefore these promises, dearly beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God.
1 John 2:5: But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.

1 John4:12: No man hath seen God at any time. If we love one another, God dwelleth in us, and his love is perfected in us.

17: Herein is our love made perfect, that we may have boldness in the day of judgment: because as he is, so are we in this world. 18: There is no fear in love; but perfect love casteth out fear: because fear hath torment. He that feareth is not made perfect in love.

1 Peter5:10: But the God of all grace, who hath called us unto his eternal glory by Christ Jesus, after that ye have suffered a while, make you perfect, stablish, strengthen, settle you.

James2:22: Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?

Heb.12:22: But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels, 23: To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,
Heb.2:10: For it became him, for whom are all things, and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons unto glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings.


1 Thes.3:10: Night and day praying exceedingly that we might see your face, and might perfect that which is lacking in your faith?

Col.1:28: Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus:

John17:22: And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one: 23: I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.

Math.48: Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect
1 John 2:1: My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous: 2: And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world. 3: And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.5: But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected:(full grown) hereby know we that we are in him.

1 John3:3: And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.

Eph.5:26: That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word (seed,knowledge), 27: That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish

When something is consecrated to the service of God it is said to be "holy." When we choose a building as a site for worship, we often pray and consecrate the building. We set it aside for a specific purpose: service to God. We then tend to guard it from frivolous uses.

The same thing with our bodies. We have been chosen to be vessels dedicated to God's service. Ephesians 1:4 and 2 Peter 2:9. We are "something" that God has chosen to set aside for a specific purpose, thus we are holy by His choosing.

However, we are not inanimate objects like the vessels and instruments in the Tabernacle. We are living beings capable of making choices for ourselves as well. And so, we are exhorted to "make ourselves holy" as well. Romans 12:1; 1 Thessalonians 4:4; 2 Timothy 2:21.

They are not the same, but holiness is similar in that we are made holy by the blood.

HOLINESS simply means BELONGING TO SOMEONE. In days of old this was so understood that people claimed something was HOLY TO THEM if they simply owned it.

Amen and amen.

thank you :)

So to be holy we have to separate ourselves from the sin of the world?

Yes, we are made perfect through him. Many in OP struggle with this.

Re: Holiness?
 

No. It is BECAUSE we are holy we separate from some things.

Re: Holiness?
 

17: Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you,
18: And will be a Father unto you, and ye shall be my sons and daughters, saith the Lord Almighty. 2 Cor. 6:17-18

Our concepts need to match the Apostles words. He will be our Father if we come out of sin and separate ourselves from the unclean.

Re: Holiness?
 

This is contrast from bastards and sons, I think. Born again, alright, but not living the life. We are holly solely because we were born again. If we do not live a holy life, that is another story altogether, and we are not living what we are. But we ARE holy.

Re: Holiness?
 

This is holiness,when we make every effort.Some people think we don't have to do anything.Some people think I'm saved by faith,I'm holy because he's holy,I can live any life of sin because I believe,anyone who believes these lies are very deceived.

Make every effort,something we do.

2 Peter 1:5: And beside this, giving all diligence, (MAKE EVERY EFFORT)add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge;6: And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness;7: And to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity.8: For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.9: But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins.10: Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence (MAKE EVERY EFFORT)to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall

Control your mind,something we do.

Philp.4:8: Finally, brethren, whatsoever things are true, whatsoever things are honest, whatsoever things are just, whatsoever things are pure, whatsoever things are lovely, whatsoever things are of good report; if there be any virtue, and if there be any praise, think on these things

2 Cor.10:3: For though we walk in the flesh, we do not war after the flesh:4: (For the weapons of our warfare are not carnal, but mighty through God to the pulling down of strong holds;)5: Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ;

Something we do.

Heb.13:15: By him therefore let us offer the sacrifice of praise to God continually, that is, the fruit of our lips giving thanks to his name

Something we do again.

Eph.4:21: If so be that ye have heard him, and have been taught by him, as the truth is in Jesus:22: That ye put off concerning the former conversation the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts;23: And be renewed in the spirit of your mind; 24: And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness

We have to do alot,the Holy Ghost don't just up and make us holy because we believe in him.

Phip.2:5: Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus

1 cor.15:33: Be not deceived: evil communications corrupt good manners.

2Tim2:16: But shun profane and vain babblings: for they will increase unto more ungodliness.

1 Thes.5:22: Abstain from all appearance of evil

Re: Holiness?
 

That is some good scripture,come out from amoung them.

Re: Holiness?
 

It is helpful to look at the way in which God dealt with Israel and to see it as a type of the manner in which He deals with the Christian believer today. For example, the children of Israel were told to make themselves holy.

Ye shall not make yourselves abominable with any creeping thing that creepeth, neither shall ye make yourselves unclean with them, that ye should be defiled thereby. For I am the LORD your God: ye shall therefore sanctify yourselves, and ye shall be holy; for I am holy: neither shall ye defile yourselves with any manner of creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth. For I am the LORD that bringeth you up out of the land of Egypt, to be your God: ye shall therefore be holy, for I am holy.

Re: Holiness?
 

Christ is the white garment. Right?

(Eph 4:24) And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.


(Rom 13:14) But put ye on the Lord Jesus Christ, and make not provision for the flesh, to fulfil the lusts thereof.

(Gal 3:27) For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

Re: Holiness?
 

It is His righteousness as you have shown.

Since this passage goes on to describe this white linen as "the righteousness of the saints," it stands to reason that "the righteousness of the saints" is a free gift.

We can do all that we're able to humanly do to "make ourselves ready;" but we still need that gift to be called the "bride of Christ."

Re: Holiness?
 

"I didn't say "Christ is the white garment"

Nope you didn't say it I did.

Re: Holiness?
 

I was fumbling there with an edit. In any event, it appears we agree?

Re: Holiness?
 

Awesome post, pelathais!!!

Re: Holiness?
 

I think it depends on the context of the term "holiness." Holiness is basically the state an degree of separation for divine use. In Christ we gain the unobtainable moral and spiritual separation from our sins and through him we can be white as snow. However, the Bible teaches us to deny ungodliness and to be separate from the world. What does it mean to be separate or distinct from the world? The Bible tells us. I believe that the Ten Commandments reveal the inner and moral aspects of separation and New Testament teachings on modesty in dress and behavior illustrate outward principles of separation.

So in a very real way, we do practice the Bible to be holy (separate). Those are just my thoughts.

Re: Holiness?
 

Mostly but not totally. We cannot make our selves holy as you said, but after we become holy through Christ we can make ourselves transgressors again.

(Jas 2:9) But if ye have respect to persons, ye commit sin, and are convinced of the law as transgressors.

(II Pe 2:20) For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.
(II Pe 2:21) For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.
(II Pe 2:22) But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.

(Gal 2:17) But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is therefore Christ the minister of sin? God forbid.
(Gal 2:18) For if I build again the things which I destroyed, I make myself a transgressor.

Re: Holiness?
 

Rev. I agree with your sentiment. The Bible, from what I read, teaches that as believers we can fall into sin again and be lost.

But I have one little issue. lol

In Galatians Paul wrote:

"16Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.
17But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is therefore Christ the minister of sin? God forbid.
18For if I build again the things which I destroyed, I make myself a transgressor." - Galatians 2:16-18

I thought Paul was saying that if we return to thinking that a strict adherence to the Law of Moses will save us we rebuild the old man that was bound by the law and become transgressors. Kinda like what Paul said here...

"Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace." - Galatians 5:4

One can fall from grace and make themselves a transgressor by seeking justification through observing the Law. The point is that legalism will cause one to fall from grace just as any other sin.

That's what I thought the Galatians text meant. What are your thoughts?

Re: Holiness?
 

I think I understand what you are saying.

And I would say you could be correct in that if you seek your righteousness from the law you have fallen from grace. Just like Paul said.

But also if we build again the things we destroyed through repentence we can also make ourselves transgressors again.

Re: Holiness?
 

I could be wrong, but in context it sounds like when Paul said, "For if I build again the things which I destroyed,..."
...he was refering to observances of the Law. Through Christ Paul was liberated from the Law and now he has destroyed the Law's power over his life. If he were to return to living under the Law, he would be rebuilding those things that he has destroyed in his spiritual walk becoming bound once more under the Law.

I only bring this up because I was with a minister who once confronted a brother about a mustache. This brother used to attend our church but had left and started attending another church that happened to allow facial hair. When we saw him wearing a mustache my minister friend told him that he was in "transgression" because he had returned to wearing facial hair after all the years of not wearing it at our church. His angle was that the man was "rebuilding" the ways of the world he once destroyed. It was a rather ugly confrontation really. I was very disturbed by it and began studying this out. After my studies I walked away feeling that Paul was talking about something closer to returning to legalism after being set free in Christ. In a sense...Paul was warning of the very thing we were doing...bringing another brother into the bondage of religious law. Though that happened years ago I'm still very sorry I was a part of that conversation. We should have been glad to see our brother and hearing that he was still in church. We should have hugged his neck and called to rememberance the days we shared together. I was young in the Lord then and I'm ashamed I had a part in treating a brother that way.

Those are just my thoughts bro. I'm still learning. God bless.

Re: Holiness?
 

Again you could have a point in what you are saying. But I also think it goes deeper than that.

Look at this....

(Jas 2:9) But if ye have respect to persons, ye commit sin, and are convinced of the law as transgressors.

This scripture doesn't have anything to do with being under the law as such. Although it could be classified under Commandment # 2 according to Christ. That is to love thy neighbor as thyself.

As far as learning. It's like the rooms on the side of Solomon's temple. The higher you go the bigger the rooms get.

:TulsaROCKS: :TulsaNO:

Re: Holiness?
 

When you are in a right relationship with God you are washed, you are cleansed, and holy before God. The spirit of God operating in your life will cause certain changes to occur in your life. They include a change in your attitudes, a love for people, a Christ-like spirit, and yes - changes in your dress and appearance. All of these changes are due to Christ living in your life. Should worldly attitudes and carnality begin to creep back in, these influences will manifest themselves, and rob your holiness. You are not automatically holy because of an experience with God. You must 'die daily', as the Apostle Paul said, to prevent carnality and self from robbing your holiness. Holiness is an active pursuit, not a concept that we are endowed with because of a single experience.

Hebrews 12:14
Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord:

Re: Holiness?
 

We are holy because He is in us and caused us to be saved. We need to ACT holy afterwards, though. But we already are holy. People do not understand being something and then acting a certain way to correspond to that something.

In Ephesians, Paul said we are seated with Christ over all powers and names already. Chapter 4 tells us to ACT LIKE IT NOW. We cannot do anything to make ourselves holy. But we can do a lot to ACT holy.

Re: Holiness?
 

I would rephrase that,m according to scripture and say we practice the bible to ACT holy. But we already are holy in status and position by God's work alone.

I am not saying to NOT ACT holy. I am saying HOLINESS simply means BELONGING TO SOMEONE. And God's salvation work caused us to belong to Him, not our work. But we need to ACT holy now. Even that, though must be by empowerment of the Spirit.

Re: Holiness?
 

EXACTLY!

Re: Holiness?
 

Aside from what I believe is a distortion of "I die daily" (which was actually talking about physical threats to Paul's life and not denying self by spiritually dying, since we died ONCE with Christ already), here are my thoughts on your post.

We are automatically holy because of an experience with God of new birth. New birth MAKES US HOLY. We are in that second separated from the world by a work of God, and are then His children. That is HOLINESS. Being HIS. Period. But HOLY BEHAVIOUR must occur afterwards. True holiness is present when behaviour becomes more and more holy.

I really think it is error to say we make ourselves holy. That is HOLY BEHAVIOUR, not holiness in and of itself. Does everyone realize HOLINESS simply means BELONGING TO GOD?

Re: Holiness?
 

Holiness is when it's perfected.How do we perfect holiness ? By us cleansing ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit.

2Cor.7
[1] Having therefore these promises, dearly beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God.

This is holiness.

Eph.5:3: But fornication, and all uncleanness, or covetousness, let it not be once named among you, as becometh saints;4: Neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor jesting, which are not convenient: but rather giving of thanks.5: For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God
Gal.5:19: Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,20: Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,21: Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God

24: And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts

1 Cor.6:9: Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,(Homosexuals)10: Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God

1 John3:3: And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.4: Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.5: And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin.6: Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him

1 John3:7: Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.8: He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.9: Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God

Gal.4:19: My little children, of whom I travail in birth again until Christ be formed in you
1Peter1:22: Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently: 23: Being born again, not of corruptible seed,(word) but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever

Eph.5:25: Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;26: That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word,27: That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish

1 John2:5: But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him. 6: He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked

Re: Holiness?
 

Interesting. I'll have to study that. Just going over that particular passage it seems you could take that both ways. Thanks for the "food for thought".

Re: Holiness?
 

Well, in this we are in agreement. I don't believe in "once saved; always saved." We are chosen by God for a purpose - similar to the way He chose the seed of Abraham in the Old Testament.

We are seperated, or made "holy" by this selection process. If however we choose to go back to the leeks and onions in Egypt, then we forfeit our inheritance and we are no longer under that covenant of promise that God had introduced when He first chose to deliver us.

You just don't want to agree with me; but I know that you really do. Stop fighting the urge. http://www.apostolicfriendsforum.com...ons/icon10.gif You and me would make a great team!

Re: Holiness?
 

Holiness has to already exist before it is perfected. You cannot perfect something that does not exist.

Being holy and PERFECTING holiness are two different things. PERFECTING it is allowing it to manifest in our behaviour. That is actually my whole point. We HAVE it now, but must PERFECT it by seeing it in our behaviour.

Re: Holiness?
 

The bible always teaches we died ONCE to sin. And watch this:

Sandwiched between two references to physical threats to his life, we read I DIE DAILY. This is because that is what he meant by DYING daily.

Scholars agree:

Adam Clarke:

Albert Barnes:


John Gill/

This is exactly the sort of language Paul used when he referred to other threats to his physical life:

But we died ONCE to sin:

We do not die daily to sin. We DENY SELF daily, but do not DIE daily.

We died ONCE with Christ. The reason Christ died ONCE was because it is appointed to us to die ONCE.

Why would Christ die ONCE because we have to die once? It is because His death counts as our's so we can say we already paid the price of the single death that was required due to our sin!

Personally, I do not believe it can be taken both ways, because everytime we read about how many deaths we need to experience, it always says ONE. :D

Re: Holiness?
 

I am thinking of Romans 8:13 "For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.

Mortify means to kill, to become dead.

And also Colossians 3:5 "Mortify therefore your members which are upon the earth; fornication, uncleanness, inordinate affection, evil concupiscence, and covetousness, which is idolatry:

In a sense, it appears, that "death" is attributed to perfecting and consecration of our spiritual life.

Just my thoughts.

Re: Holiness?
 

Well if you agree with me then I'm going to agree with you! :toofunny

A team of what? :toofunny

:TulsaROCKS: :TulsaNO: