Originally Posted by seguidordejesus (Post 360346)

Awesome.

What's the dif between this and TV again? :)

Originally Posted by seguidordejesus (Post 360346)

Awesome.

What's the dif between this and TV again? :)

Originally Posted by CC1 (Post 360329)

I have always loved dance! It is a powerful way to communicate.

Just a shame Pentecostals have to disguise interpretive dancing as "signing".

Originally Posted by CC1 (Post 360329)

I have always loved dance! It is a powerful way to communicate.

Just a shame Pentecostals have to disguise interpretive dancing as "signing".

Originally Posted by papapraiz (Post 360761)

There is really little difference - This is Television ... it is telling it with vision.

Originally Posted by Sister Alvear (Post 360365)

Also a shame Pentecostals know so little about our Jewish roots....that is where dancing comes from... dancing was a way of life to them...

I am still weeping...that was so beautiful...

Originally Posted by IBCrazier2 (Post 360445)

I would like to know, when doing a sign song, when does it go from worship to putting on a show? I can remember, out of the 20 years of being at the church I am at, haveing deaf people attend our church maybe 10 times! With that being said we have people do sign songs, have sign choirs, etc..... every couple of weeks it seems. I will say at times it can be moving and when from the heart and as worship it can be wonderful, but what is the purpose if it is not for worship or ministry?

Originally Posted by yogi (Post 360433)

I agree completely!!! It really is dancing, which is biblical!!!

You should see the "Hands of Praise" team from Hales church in Denver do this. They are all young people and did it at the Colorado Youth Convention. It was simply amazing. Much better than Wilsons group

Originally Posted by Tina (Post 360814)

I've noticed that many of the groups I've seen do this aren't even using "signs". They are using motions to the music. They have a few of the words matched up with the right signs in this one-- but most of it is just as CC1 called it.. Dancing... movement to the music.

Nice song... but it bothers me that a lot of these groups say it's "signing" when they aren't even using "signs" that a deaf person would be able to recognize as a word.

I don't know all of the words yet myself, but both my daughters have learned signing as a method to communicate with a friend from another church who is deaf--and they have taught me some of it. My oldest daughter does do interpretation for the deaf when someone attends services who needs it. While watching this video, my youngest daughter said "Mom, most of that isn't ASL signing-- most of it is just moves they've made up to go with the music."

If they are using this as a "ministry" for the deaf-- they need to use the right signs. Otherwise, it's just putting on a show. JMHO.

Originally Posted by Tina (Post 360814)

I've noticed that many of the groups I've seen do this aren't even using "signs". They are using motions to the music. They have a few of the words matched up with the right signs in this one-- but most of it is just as CC1 called it.. Dancing... movement to the music.

Nice song... but it bothers me that a lot of these groups say it's "signing" when they aren't even using "signs" that a deaf person would be able to recognize as a word.

I don't know all of the words yet myself, but both my daughters have learned signing as a method to communicate with a friend from another church who is deaf--and they have taught me some of it. My oldest daughter does do interpretation for the deaf when someone attends services who needs it. While watching this video, my youngest daughter said "Mom, most of that isn't ASL signing-- most of it is just moves they've made up to go with the music."

If they are using this as a "ministry" for the deaf-- they need to use the right signs. Otherwise, it's just putting on a show. JMHO.

Originally Posted by CC1 (Post 360823)

Why if they are doing it to bless people other than the deaf it is just "putting on a show"?

That is the kind of logic people use to say people should not practice singing or playing instruments because if you are good it is just a "show". Arghhh!!!

There are many ways to worship and lift up Jesus. Dance...er....signing is one of them. Why deny there can be power and beauty in things done with unity and syncrhonization? It is just denying reality. This is the same trap that keeps many Pentecostals from enjoying the blessing and power from reciting a common creed or a printed prayer for a group to speak together. They are so worried about being Roman Catholic or caught up in "tradition" that they miss blessings.

Originally Posted by Tina (Post 360828)

I knew that was going to come across wrong. LOL

Monkeyman, No, there's nothing wrong with dance-- if one is dancing as unto the Lord. Have you not ever seen people who put on a dance for "show"?

You can tell the difference when something is done as a form of worship-- or when it's done for show. At least I can. I've been very blessed by some signing groups (or around here, they are called drama teams) The difference is made by if the team has been to the prayer room before getting up there. Some are annointed worship. Others are just show.

Now I'm going to back out of the thread before I start a war for stating my thoughts. I need to be cooking supper anyway.

Originally Posted by IBCrazier2 (Post 360835)

Sorry Tina .... didn't mean to get you in trouble:ouch

Originally Posted by CC1 (Post 360823)

Why if they are doing it to bless people other than the deaf it is just "putting on a show"?

That is the kind of logic people use to say people should not practice singing or playing instruments because if you are good it is just a "show". Arghhh!!!

There are many ways to worship and lift up Jesus. Dance...er....signing is one of them. Why deny there can be power and beauty in things done with unity and syncrhonization? It is just denying reality. This is the same trap that keeps many Pentecostals from enjoying the blessing and power from reciting a common creed or a printed prayer for a group to speak together. They are so worried about being Roman Catholic or caught up in "tradition" that they miss blessings.

Originally Posted by Tina (Post 360828)

I knew that was going to come across wrong. LOL

Monkeyman, No, there's nothing wrong with dance-- if one is dancing as unto the Lord. Have you not ever seen people who put on a dance for "show"?

You can tell the difference when something is done as a form of worship-- or when it's done for show. At least I can. I've been very blessed by some signing groups (or around here, they are called drama teams) The difference is made by if the team has been to the prayer room before getting up there. Some are annointed worship. Others are just show.

Now I'm going to back out of the thread before I start a war for stating my thoughts. I need to be cooking supper anyway.

Originally Posted by Tina (Post 360828)

I knew that was going to come across wrong. LOL

Monkeyman, No, there's nothing wrong with dance-- if one is dancing as unto the Lord. Have you not ever seen people who put on a dance for "show"?

You can tell the difference when something is done as a form of worship-- or when it's done for show. At least I can. I've been very blessed by some signing groups (or around here, they are called drama teams) The difference is made by if the team has been to the prayer room before getting up there. Some are annointed worship. Others are just show.

Now I'm going to back out of the thread before I start a war for stating my thoughts. I need to be cooking supper anyway.

Originally Posted by CC1 (Post 360903)

You warmed my heart by letting me know that some good man is about to eat a good homecooked meal!

I am patiently waiting for my daughter and her husband to come visit tonight. She is cooking me a meal she cooked for the first time last week and it was one of the best meals I have ever eaten in my life hands down. Including expensive restaurants! The scary thing is that she "winged it" from a recipe she saw on TV and we are not sure she can recreate it. We will find out tonight.

Originally Posted by stmatthew (Post 360923)

I guess that all these folks will now be lost according to KH unless they leave this dissenters church and go find a UPCI church so they can be saved.

Originally Posted by dizzyde (Post 360950)

Is it just me, or is your attitude a little, let's just say "off" lately? :eeeew

Originally Posted by stmatthew (Post 360957)

Just putting these things in the perspective that KH has placed them. If he is going to vilify the Tulsa group and say that they are going to ruin ministries and lead them away from God, then it is evident that he believes that any that follows NW is doomed unless they move to the Church (UPCI).

Originally Posted by Barb (Post 360969)

Matt, I haven't been reading much of this lately, but can you point me to a reference where Bro. H has said the above?!

Originally Posted by Barb (Post 360969)

Matt, I haven't been reading much of this lately, but can you point me to a reference where Bro. H has said the above?!

Originally Posted by philjones (Post 347764)

I am posting a letter from Bro. Haney by permission. I received the letter from a recipient in email.

Subject: Letter from Brother Haney
Date: Fri, 4 Jan 2008 14:51:33 -0600


January 4, 2008

Dear brethren,

I want to thank you for all that you have done and are doing for the Kingdom. As a movement ordained of God, we have been in the midst of the storm, but I can assure you that the storm is ABATING. As Moses, Caleb, Joshua, Nehemiah and numerous others of God’s Generals have stood at the forefront of an emotional storm; when a handful of voices among them sought to bring division, they as God’s Generals, spoke with Authority & Assurance! God was with them, and the storm passed over; thus, it will be the same with us.

I have been to a number of meetings in the last month and a half, and my heart has been greatly warmed by the host of ministers who have come to me personally to assure me of their loyalty and that they were in much prayer. They could not understand why men would conduct themselves in this manner. This is the feeling of most of the UPCI. I was moved by their love and prayerfulness for God’s work, and my heart was touched by their spirit. I felt that we, as God’s leaders, need to seize the moment and speak calm to the storm, and also discourage any of our brethren from going to the Tulsa event. No good would come from their going - only that they would be used. At this point, it is time for the Generals to forcefully and clearly—without hesitation—strengthen the hands of God’s people.

There is no panic or fear, but only concern that some precious ministers may be isolated for some reason or other from the main stream of the Fellowship. It could be by distance or lack of closeness to fellow ministers, and all they know is what they read on some web site or what comes in the mail. Neither of these gives the true picture. Several men, whose names were listed in the items being mailed out and distributed, contacted me and were greatly concerned that their names had been included. In some cases, men said they had not given their consent; in other cases, that they called or notified whomever was in charge and told them NOT to list their names, but they were listed in spite of their protest.

The brethren of our Districts must be assured that the church, the United Pentecostal Church International, is blessed of God and stands staunch as a Holiness movement, a revival movement, and a doctrinally sound movement, and that there is no compromise. As a matter of fact, we have history, as an organization, to prove this. Each generation in times of crisis has risen to the challenge; therefore, we will, and have done so also.

From my experience in traveling the length and breadth of our Fellowship, it is my opinion that we are as solid, strong, and as passionate as we have ever been. Any new group attempting to start will do so without history or track record, and it is yet to be proven what they would really do in the midst of crisis. In the history of the UPCI, there have been other groups who have attempted to do this also, but have failed to rally to the challenges, and thus came to naught.

In the final analysis and when the dust settles, we will be a stronger organization and a more passionate movement. We will be more united against worldliness and more united for the cause of World Evangelism - proclaiming the unadulterated Gospel of the New Testament as we impact this world for the cause of the Kingdom. The United Pentecostal Church is growing rapidly. New churches and daughter works are being planted each day, and a host of new ministers are being added to the already great number. For instance, our General Secretary, Brother Jones, just spoke to me and said that since General Conference, we have lost 27 ministers due to the passing of the resolution. In the same period of time, we have licensed 128 new ministers. The church is strong and will not, and must not, be distracted from our real mission: to reach our cities, states, and the nations of the world with TRUTH and an uncompromising message.

In conclusion, in reminiscing over my life, I have found that each trial and each valley I have journeyed through, that AFTER the trial, I have been much stronger and more blessed. I do believe that there is a great deal of good that will be achieved as a movement when we pass to the other side of this storm, and we will be bonded closer together and our purpose will have greater clarity.

For a United Church and respectfully yours,

Kenneth F. Haney

KFH/jh

There you have it. Thank you Bro. Baughman!

Originally Posted by stmatthew (Post 361012)

Sis Barb,

Here is KH's letter for your review. It is obvious in his letter that he places those that are structuring the Tulsa group as out of Gods will, and on a path to destruction, and any that follow them will come to ruin.

Originally Posted by Tina (Post 360814)

I've noticed that many of the groups I've seen do this aren't even using "signs". They are using motions to the music. They have a few of the words matched up with the right signs in this one-- but most of it is just as CC1 called it.. Dancing... movement to the music.

Nice song... but it bothers me that a lot of these groups say it's "signing" when they aren't even using "signs" that a deaf person would be able to recognize as a word.

I don't know all of the words yet myself, but both my daughters have learned signing as a method to communicate with a friend from another church who is deaf--and they have taught me some of it. My oldest daughter does do interpretation for the deaf when someone attends services who needs it. While watching this video, my youngest daughter said "Mom, most of that isn't ASL signing-- most of it is just moves they've made up to go with the music."

If they are using this as a "ministry" for the deaf-- they need to use the right signs. Otherwise, it's just putting on a show. JMHO.

Originally Posted by dixonic2 (Post 361108)

Just to put in my 2cents....
I can't sing....really, it's painful for the congregation! So I choose to pray, and practice my sign-songs. I do use ASL. But as my college ASL professor said "you DO NOT need to use word for word sign in songs". :nothingtoadd that's all folks :)

Originally Posted by Barb (Post 360907)

What is it?!

Originally Posted by Tina (Post 360814)

I've noticed that many of the groups I've seen do this aren't even using "signs". They are using motions to the music. They have a few of the words matched up with the right signs in this one-- but most of it is just as CC1 called it.. Dancing... movement to the music.

Nice song... but it bothers me that a lot of these groups say it's "signing" when they aren't even using "signs" that a deaf person would be able to recognize as a word.

I don't know all of the words yet myself, but both my daughters have learned signing as a method to communicate with a friend from another church who is deaf--and they have taught me some of it. My oldest daughter does do interpretation for the deaf when someone attends services who needs it. While watching this video, my youngest daughter said "Mom, most of that isn't ASL signing-- most of it is just moves they've made up to go with the music."

If they are using this as a "ministry" for the deaf-- they need to use the right signs. Otherwise, it's just putting on a show. JMHO.

Originally Posted by Tina (Post 360814)

I've noticed that many of the groups I've seen do this aren't even using "signs". They are using motions to the music. They have a few of the words matched up with the right signs in this one-- but most of it is just as CC1 called it.. Dancing... movement to the music.

Nice song... but it bothers me that a lot of these groups say it's "signing" when they aren't even using "signs" that a deaf person would be able to recognize as a word.

I don't know all of the words yet myself, but both my daughters have learned signing as a method to communicate with a friend from another church who is deaf--and they have taught me some of it. My oldest daughter does do interpretation for the deaf when someone attends services who needs it. While watching this video, my youngest daughter said "Mom, most of that isn't ASL signing-- most of it is just moves they've made up to go with the music."

If they are using this as a "ministry" for the deaf-- they need to use the right signs. Otherwise, it's just putting on a show. JMHO.

Originally Posted by KarenJo (Post 360350)

Good point...it's interesting that his web-site is very progressive which is why I am surprised that he is on the Tulsa List....

Originally Posted by CC1 (Post 360329)

I have always loved dance! It is a powerful way to communicate.

Just a shame Pentecostals have to disguise interpretive dancing as "signing".

Originally Posted by IBCrazier2 (Post 360445)

I would like to know, when doing a sign song, when does it go from worship to putting on a show? I can remember, out of the 20 years of being at the church I am at, haveing deaf people attend our church maybe 10 times! With that being said we have people do sign songs, have sign choirs, etc..... every couple of weeks it seems. I will say at times it can be moving and when from the heart and as worship it can be wonderful, but what is the purpose if it is not for worship or ministry?