"We're Soldiers" ... The Tony Soprano - Murray Burr Connection
 

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“It were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and he cast into the sea, than that he should offend one of these little ones.” Jesus Christ. Luke 17: 12.



In the “From Where to Eternity?“ episode of “The Sopranos”, Tony Soprano reveals his ideas on who is going to hell to Dr. Melfi, his therapist.

Melfi: “Do you think he’ll go to hell?”

TS: “No. He’s not the type that deserves hell.”

Melfi: “Who do you think does?”

TS: “The worst people … the twisted and demented psychos who kill people for pleasure. The cannibals, the degenerate ____that molest and torture little kids and kill babies. The Hitlers. The Pol Pots. Those are the evil _____s who deserve to die. Not my nephew.”

Melfi: “What about you?”

TS: What? Hell? You been listening to me? No … for the same reasons. We’re soldiers. Soldiers don’t go to hell. It’s war. Soldiers, they kill other soldiers. We’re in a situation where everybody involved knows the stakes … you gotta do certain things. It’s business, we’re soldiers. We follow codes … orders.”

Tony Soprano is a mob boss and a gangster; not a theologian. But he articulates well his worldview - at least as far as the difference between Soldiers and Innocent Bystanders.

He could strangle a man to death with his bare hands yet feel angst and sorrow over an innocent child’s suffering.

Simply, his ethic is this: a gangster knows the risks just like a hockey player knows if he straps on the pads and steps onto the ice he is going to be slammed into the boards. The spectators out in the arena however, are off limits.

“We’re soldiers” … means “while we kill, maim and brutalize other gangsters; our code prevents us from killing innocents - those who have no stake in the battle and cannot fight back.”

We follow codes … we live by a principle.

… thus is the Gospel According to Tony Soprano.

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Murray E. Burr was an “old school” archconservative. To me, he is how Ronald Reagan described Richard Nixon: “a complicated, fascinating man.”

Burr was the catalyst for the Apostolic Ministerial Fellowship; a major split from the United Pentecostal Church - “major” in the caliber of preachers who left if not in the quantity. The battles fought mainly on the Louisiana and Texas gulf coasts over Burr’s expulsion from the organization predated the Tulsa Meeting by 40 years.

Are there lessons the Tulsa Crowd (and all of us) could learn from Burr?

I think so.

Burr, like Tony Soprano, recognized the difference between Soldiers and Innocents.

I find Burr fascinating because he was a man of contradictions. I don’t mean hypocrital ones; Burr was anything but a hypocrite.

He was born in the small village of Merryville; hard by the Sabine River on the Louisiana-Texas border in Beauregard Parish, Louisiana, a small area that produced other giants of oneness Pentecostal history like A. T. Morgan, T. F. Tenney and George Glass, Sr.

I think in his heart-of-hearts that Burr believed the outrageous, outlandish and extra-biblical positions he espoused passionately and many times with a pen dripping with venom.

At the same time; he was an intellectual who quoted Shakespeare and Tennyson from memory. While many Pentecostal preachers of the ultra-con variety would probably be selling shoes or digging ditches were they not behind a pulpit, Burr could have been a Supreme Court justice or President of a major university. He had a powerful mind.

I first heard him preach on the radio around 1982 while on Interstate 10 around Lafayette, La., traveling to another revival. His program’s theme song, “In Times Like These” played and then he began to preach in a deep baritone.

I expected to hear a raving lunatic. After all, I was a young preacher who had been fed a steady diet about how “bitter” Burr was.

But when those twenty minutes had passed, I wished the clock had never been invented so that he could continue on and on and on.

When he wasn’t bashing and slamming, he was one of the most profound preachers in oneness Pentecostal history - a giant of the pulpit.

While his arch-conservative theology was petty and patently ridiculous, he had a deep sense of honor and right and wrong.

He was a man’s man who, when he felt he was wronged and humiliated, was not going to go away meekly like a lamb.

C. G. Weeks in the Louisiana District and V. A. Guidroz in the Texas District ruled their fiefdoms with iron fists in the 1960s.

Burr had two of his own and when he was expelled from the United Pentecostal Church around 1967, he fired salvoes from his pen against the UPC like the battleship Missouri firing a broadside from her sixteen inch guns at full bore.

He bloodied up a lot of men, proved the old adage about the pen being mightier than the sword, and was one of the most polarizing figures in oneness Pentecostal history.

The most fascinating dichotomy and contrast in the life and ministry of Murray E. Burr is that while he was relentless and brutal in going after his perceived enemies in the ministry, Burr recognized the difference between Soldiers and Innocents, much more than many far lesser men.

A young minister from the church Burr pastored in Port Arthur, Texas married the daughter of a longtime presbyter in the Texas District UPC. The couple was kin to me by marriage.

Burr loved the young minister and took part in the wedding along with UPC ministers.

In 1991, the minister’s wife was killed in a car accident. The funeral was held in Newton, Texas, where the couple had pastored.

Burr was there taking part in the funeral, preaching to a predominantly UPC congregation including E. L. Holley, then the Texas District Superintendent and many other district officials, pastors, lay members and non-Pentecostals from the community.

I was in the congregation.

He could have used the occasion to “take shots.” He could have used the pulpit to berate the organization and Holley, among those Burr felt had wronged him.

I’ll remember until I die his gentle words of comfort, exhorting that UPC church to “use this tragedy for good; to have revival.” He was gracious and kind. There was not even a hint of the viciousness and ruthlessness he used when he fought.

I believe Burr knew the congregation was filled not only with the grief-stricken, but with “saints” - laymen who had no knowledge of nor interest in the battles he fought with preachers who could ably fight back with pen and word.

He fought like a tiger in the arena but knew the harm he could cause to The Innocent outside the arena.

Had I known to ask him why on that spring day in 1991, he might have said like Tony Soprano: “We’re soldiers … we kill each other but we don’t harm the innocents who have no stake in the battle.”

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For those of you old-timers reading this who remember the AMF battles; I’m not so naïve as to assert that no laymen at all were aware of the titanic battles between preachers and organizations.

Yes, I remember hearing about some preachers wives declaring the young ladies in their churches should not date “Laodecian boys” in UPC churches. But for the most part, the advice was ignored and marriages across AMF-UPC lines were common. The battle was left to the preachers because from Burr’s example, the preachers did not stray from the combat zone.

I contrast this with 2008; with a predominance of pettiness - with preachers seeming to use their saints as human shields in their battles against television, “liberalism” and what they perceive as “worldliness.”

In contrast to fighting with honor and leaving laymen out of things, church members are ordered not to speak to members of a neighboring church deemed more “liberal” or “worldly” by petty and insecure pastors.

In 2008, is the Tulsa crowd “fighting with honor” by using bait-and-switch tactics - by asserting “we are not an organization - just a fellowship” and then lo and behold - a complete, bloated organizational structure is already in place?

Burr might have had a pen dripping with poison, he might have been brutal and ruthless … but he would NEVER have talked out of both sides of his mouth and used bait and switch tactics like a shyster salesman to get men to join a fellwoship for his own political gain.

He was a man of conviction. In my opinion many of his convictions were wrong, misguided and ridiculous - but he fought for them with passion and honor.

Men don’t fight with swords anymore.

When nuclear bombs can incinerate millions, Generals use cold-blooded terms like “Residual Casualties” to describe civilians killed. Mothers, fathers, sisters, brothers, human beings who live, laugh and love - much easier to kill and mangle them through a bomb sight than to stick a sword through them.

In the oneness Pentecostal world in 2008, ministers coldly calculate “residual casualties.” If some innocent “saints” are damaged by “Tulsa at any cost” then so be it; seems to be the mindset.

Perhaps Johnny Godair, Kenny Godair, Crawford Coon and others need to listen to a fictional gangster and to a voice from the grave.

Murray Burr lived in a time now bygone.

Burr fought face-to-face and man-to-man.

Murray Burr’s archconservative and extra-biblical positions violated more than one sound Bible interpretation.

But on one scriptural principle he was right on the money; like Tony Soprano, he knew how to be a soldier and not harm the innocents.

Murray Burr is dead now.

And I am nostalgic for the era in oneness Pentecostalism that seems to have died with him - an era when soldiers fought with honor.

I never knew Murray Burr, but it's good to hear that his burden for ministry took the needs of innocent saints into consideration. That's something which in in rather short supply today.

WoW....now this is why we missed you while you were away from the forum Tim.

I agree with your perspective on Murray Burr. A great man with a great mind.

But honestly, Tim, I was a kid in an AMF church back in those days. I recall fellowship meetings...I can tell you that there was a lot more stuff said in services--with the "innocents" present-- then than you are likely to hear now.

Men are men.

To romanticize an era so completely is in my opinion not reality.

You were young and idealistic then--contrasted with now, when unfortunate events have given you a different perspective.

I am not going to be in Tulsa, and have some concerns about the whole thing...but seriously, these men have been more careful in many ways than the old Texas/Louisianna/Oklahoma war participants ever were.

It wasn't just preachers that read Burr's writings.

I would love to see one of those letters....or even hear him speak...

Men who use their minds and not just their emotions are fascinating to listen to....

While I was neve priveledgfed to hear Myurray Burr, I did come into Pentecost in an AMF church that had recently left the UPC.

The church was in Pensacola FL and with four or five neighboring UPC churches there was plenty to shoot at from the pulpit.

My first year was spent there and the UPC bashing from the pulpit was a constant rallying cry to get us all a shouting and a dancin' bout our brothers who were so lost.

It was 1970 and it played just like today. Back then the argument were about the UPC having rings, short sleeves, bobbed hair and TV

Come out from among them and be ye separate, was used to validate their leaving the mother ship.

To a brand new 20 year old convert this was not what I needed to hear.

I distinctly remember feeling that this kind of speech from the pulpit and among the saints was not proper.

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Coonskinner, I think I covered, with the above statement, that I wasn't totally idealizing or romanticizing the AMF era.

The reminisce was about Burr specifically.

There are some parallels with Huey P. Long, who ruled Louisiana with an iron fist, first as governor and then as a US senator with a puppet governor in Baton Rouge.

After Long's assasination, his henchmen and flunkies took Louisiana government to astronomical levels of corruption and demagoguery.

Burr had followers and local-license-level preachers, jack-leg pastors who took things far beyond what he ever took them in public rhetoric.

I stand by the terms.

I knew many of them personally.

Frankly, what disgusts me about the Tulsa crowd is the mealy-mouthing, the double-talking and the bait-and switching.

Or we an organization or are we not?

Yeah, you might wonder since we have an oligarchy already in place.

What in the world is a "preferred apostolic future"?

Quit mealy-mouthing to see the reaction and come out and say what you mean.

I'd frankly respect them more if they had a Murray Burr who fired salvoes.

At least you'd know where he stood.

No, Coonskinner.

My perspective on a comparison of organizational conflicts from the 1960s and the 21st century in oneness pentecostalism is NOT based on romanticism and idealism.

It's based on 100 percent pure realism.

Oh and another thing ...

Starry-eyed romanticism is you folks who think this Tulsa crowd is a monolithic bloc oh-so-sincerely concerned over television.

Hogwash.

It's a group of men wanting political office who have a good excuse to do what they've always wanted to do.

What I find ridiculous is how they tolerate in their cronies what they call "compromise" and worldliness in their political enemies.

When I get time, I'll post specific examples.

And if you haven't figured it out by now, when I call specific names and use specific examples, I know whereof I speak.

I have no doubt that Timlan's characterization of MB as both intellectual with a powerful mind and bitter venom spewing preacher are on the money as that reconciles the two extreme views of him I have heard repeatedly over the years.

My only concern is that I think way too many times people excuse the bad or wrong things about a person because of their other, good qualities.

They don't cancel each other out. It is a shame that some other elders could not have helped MB face his bitterness and realize that it and his venom was not a balanced view of the Gospel and it did nothing to further his cause.

If MB could have been more balanced he very well could have led the AMF to great success.

From all accounts he was a fascinating intelligent man.

I frankly am not sure he was "bitter" as much as just a warrior who gave better than what he got to men like Weeks and Guidroz who were used to folks rolling over like kittens in front of them.

"Bitter" is the panacea and the catch-all folks use on these message boards when people challenge sacred cows or bring up points and positions that folks don't want to hear.

I'm paraphrasing here.

But Burr wrote this about "bitterness."

I find it amazing this came from an ultracon and not from someone who left and was disillusioned with many things in modern day oneness pentecostalism.

Regardless ... the truth here is ironclad.


The young preachers words came through the phone, repeating, staccato-like ...

"You're bitter, elder ... you're bitter. You're bitter, elder ... you're bitter."

I had known the young preacher since he was a child.

I cannot say the words did not hurt.

Then I thought: If I am not bitter and I am right, where does that leave young master **** ?

On the other hand, if I am bitter, yet right ...

Does the condition of Burr's spirit free men from truth?

Having been a friend of M. E. Burr, I sat and heard him preach and teach, I sat at tables and ate with him and he knew me by name, visited in his home.
I would have to say as far as his stand Tim has it on the target. Yes his writings were direct and sometimes probably too pointed. He was writing what he believed, was he affected by what he believed and what was done to him? Yes he was a man, but was he bitter? You could not be in his presence 5 minutes and see that this charge was unfounded. I NEVER heard him personally attack Weeks-Guidroz-Chambers or the men in the UPC he attacked the system. He was kind and a Southern gentleman in everyway. After helping birth the AMF he did not stay but eventually left because he felt the brethren should move on instead going around the same mountain.
I spoke with a notable Elder from the Gulf Coast that sponsered the Baker meeting in which the AMF was formed he said Elder we had a cause and a conviction and were forced to do what we did, he said I have no idea what the cause and conviction is for this formation? Tim is right those men in that era faced religious tribunals convened illegally according to their manual, faced civil court trials and some lost buildings even parsonages that the local pastor and church family had fund raised to build. But everyone knew what the cause was and the dividing line was clear. Many did not quit they were thrown out like Verbal Bean, M. E. Burr, R.C. Cavaness and others. Elder Burr would not accept the chairman position though elected he was not a politician the UPC broke him from that. Thank you Tim this was touching.
To you other brethren I am in no way excusing any misconduct from any AMF preacher or venom but you wasn't there. Did some keep it going when it should have been laid to rest? No doubt. JUst like some folks are still fighting the Civil war and that has been over 150 years. I was offended by the letter one sponser sent out saying they did not want an AMF attitude well the man won't be facing legal action BECAUSE the AMF pulled the teeth of affiliation policies. They won't have to go to court because our brethren did. But I will be watching their attitude in the time to come. Talk is easy when you are not under the gun. Say what you want about the AMF in those early years but their was no doubt in anyone's mind what the war was over. Enough said.

I like Brother Burr and he was kind to us in his home and in his church. We were just real young when he took my husband fishing in the gulf and my what a time they had...My husband caught his first flounder and precious Sister Burr fixed it for us to eat along with many other things.
Other than being on a friendly basis my husband and I chose not to mix a lot with AMF churches back then as there was much bitterness. We just stayed in our little corner aand did what God called us to do...
Religion and politics kill many a good person...for they do not mix...back then there was a lot of doing this or that to spite the UPC...we could have chosen to walk with them but we wanted to keep our hearts clear and clean ...40 years later we are glad we did...we have friends in both camps but we never got involved with their fussing and fighting...and glad my children only learned about big differences AFTER they were grown...

thanks dear friend

Wow! Told as only Timlan can tell it!

Your post was totally congruent with things that I had been told over the years!

I appreciate the kind words you said about me in the opening post. For this, I'll spare you another day.

Tim thanks again.