JEWS!
 

Ok, we all love them, they're great. The question is this; if a Jew converts to Christianity do they still need to keep the Law? The reason I ask this- I obviously don't have to worry about keeping sabbath or kosher or anything like that. GOD has never told us in the New Covenant to keep it and GOD never told my people to keep these things, because I am not Jewish. However, for a Jew, GOD DID tell them to keep sabbath and kosher, ect, ect... Now I'm not saying this saves them, but is it their duty as still being Jews to keep the Law? And of course, I'm not saying at all that any Gentile convert to Christianity has to keep the Law, but as for the Jew that converts, well that's for us to discuss now...

GOD BLESS!
Bro. Alex

Re: JEWS!
 

Much of the N.T. was written to and for Jews. What does it say?

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Do the NEED to keep the Law? No. Can they keep the law? Yes. Should they keep the law? Absolutely!

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"Go and do thou likewise"?

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No law for Jews or gentiles. Peter said law was a yoke neither they nor their fathers were able to bear. Acts 15.

Paul also said in Gal 3 through 4 that law was the jews' schoolmaster of elementary lessons that were given before Christ came. But since Christ came, JEWS are not under a schoolmaster any more. So that would mean they are not under law and its rituals any more. Christ has come and they need to go to Him.

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When the Jews come to Jesus, it is the fulfillment of the law. They are only keeping the law when they come to Christ...

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I'm not speaking of moral law, which we all have to keep. I'm talking about dietary law and the ceremonial law to an extent, obviously the ceremonial sacrifices are no longer necessary, but do the ceremonial laws concerning SPECIFIC obligations and commandments (mitzvots) such as keeping Shabbat or High Holy Days and other Holy Days ect. have to be kept. The NT mentions those who esteem some days and new moons and such. The Jews are told not to look down on us for not doing them, but should they be doing these things? Does GOD still have a covenant with this people?

GOD BLESS!
Bro. Alex

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Again, I think no. Sabbath is not a moral law. It is ritual.

Paul said the sabbaths are a shadow of the body, Christ. Once you have the body, you have the actuality and not a mere shadow.

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What am I missing here?

Why should they keep the law if, as you yourself say, there is no need for them to?

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I ask the same thing. Why? I think the New testaments shows that Jews should NOT keep any laws at all in some contrast to gentile believers.

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The last three or four verses of Isaiah mention that we will be celebrating the Shabbat in eternity.

GOD BLESS!
Bro. Alex

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Zech 11:10
10 And I took my staff, even Beauty, and cut it assunder, that I might break my covenant which I had made with all the people.
KJV

That covenant has been broken... there's only one covenant now... that's the New Covenant, which is through Jesus Christ. It's for "ALL" people who don't reject it....

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So where in the NT does it tell us that the OT is done away with? This is a common misunderstanding in Christian circles. So, which "law" of the OT makes folks feel uncomfortable to follow?

The 10 commandments are for ALL....including the Sabbath.

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We should look into the context of Zec 11. I will be back later on tonight. I'm going to look into that...
Does GOD break a covenant? How? Do you believe in the "tribulation" time there'll be some scenarios that the Jews are put into by GOD? Why would you believe this? Is GOD done with the Jewish people? Ought they still be faithful to the Covenant previously made even if they believe in Christ?

GOD BLESS!
Bro. Alex

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(Isa 66:22) For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith the LORD, so shall your seed and your name remain.
(Isa 66:23) And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the LORD.

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Brother,

If they convert to Christianity, they automatically become a jew. Read

Romans 2:28, 29. They become circumcised in the heart. Inward circum-

cism. They that are Christ's are Abraham's seed, according to the promise.

The promise of what! The promise of the Father! His Spirit! They that are

Christ are not under the law! They have been saved from the law of sin and

death. No man could be made righteous by the law. It was our schoolteacher,

to bring (lead) us to Christ!

Blessings,

Falla39

Re: JEWS!
 

Yes you are missing something. :stirpot Should is not Need. Need is necessity. They do not NEED to keep the law. It is no requirement. They SHOULD keep the law just as the believing Jews in the bible kept the law. It was their identity and culture. The law taught some great truths about Christ in types and shadows and that would be a great way to show other Jews the truth of Christ

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What is the real sabbath, though?

Isaiah 49:6 has God speaking to Israel and telling them that they would be a light to the gentiles.


Paul took this and applied it as a command to the CHURCH...

The Old Testament prophecies are applied to the church age. Paul proved it above.

Also, Isaiah foretold things that were said to be fulfilled in JERUSALEM, that are actually fulfilled in the Bride, NEW Jerusalem.

Watch how people from ALL Nations fulfill what was specifically said to Jerusalem and israel in Isaiah:

So the sabbath issue is not eternity... Jesus is our sabbath. :)

We must TRANSLATE the natural pictures of the Old Testament -- like natural Israel -- into spiritual pictures of the church and Christ. So that means the Sabbaths are actually truisms of Christ, and not a day any more.

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The whole "Law" was a part of the Old Covenant. God made a NEW Covenant with us, NOT like the old one

Jer 31:31 "Behold, the days are coming, declares the LORD, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and the house of Judah,
Jer 31:32 not like the covenant that I made with their fathers on the day when I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt, my covenant that they broke, though I was their husband, declares the LORD.
Jer 31:33 But this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, declares the LORD: I will put my law within them, and I will write it on their hearts. And I will be their God, and they shall be my people.

The Law serves as a school master to lead the to Christ.

Since we have a New Covenant we can look in the New Testament for what teachings are in that New Covenant and most of the 10 Commandments are reiterated and expanded on there

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To help some of you out here who need to know a little more about Judaism. Jews don't keep the law to be saved. They keep the law because they are Jewish. They don't keep it to become Jewish. They keep it because they ARE Jewish. The Jewish law is for identity not salvation.

A Jew who becomes a follower of Jesus Christ (the Pharisaic Jewish Rabbi) if he desires to remain Jewish may keep all of the law if he so chooses. He still understands that the final sacrifice was made on Calvary for his salvation. He doesn't HAVE to keep the law, however he may desire to keep the law to retain his Jewish (now Messianic) identity. I know of Messianic Jewish congregations who keep the law to varying degrees.

There are MANY things in Judaism which Christians would do well to understand. The law was NOT done away with. There is no evidence whatsoever that states that Paul ever stopped following Judaism. He did however, know that the keeping of the law did not bring salvation..Jesus Christ did.

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(Heb 10:4) For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins.

(Heb 10:9) Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second.

The blood of bulls and goats can never take away sin! it never did and it never will.

He found fault with the first so he brought in the second! It was done away with and will never be applied again!

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In all due respect, I disagree. Paul said the law was a schoolmaster and that includes the types and shadows. And that was done away with when Christ is come.

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I heard this many times, but where does the New Testament teach that Jews should do these things after they are converted so as to adhere to culture? I heard people give derived conclusions from the NT, but never substantial evidence or teaching to that effect from the NT.

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Right....I think you are missing something here brother. I said they should keep it to show OTHER Jews. I never said they HAD to keep it or it was needed to be kept. The Jewish believes in the bible kept the law. In fact when it came to a question of the law and Gentiles the others said they should keep certain things because Moses is read in every city...in other words "So we can keep winning the jews"...

IF a Jewish convert is going to win their jewish friends they are going to place a stumbling block by forsaking everything that is a part of being Jewish...that was what they did in the bible. Jewish believes were very zealous for the law and Paul took them to the temple to undergo a purification ritual....why?

Act 21:19 After greeting them, he related one by one the things that God had done among the Gentiles through his ministry.
Act 21:20 And when they heard it, they glorified God. And they said to him, "You see, brother, how many thousands there are among the Jews of those who have believed. They are all zealous for the law,
Act 21:21 and they have been told about you that you teach all the Jews who are among the Gentiles to forsake Moses, telling them not to circumcise their children or walk according to our customs.
Act 21:22 What then is to be done? They will certainly hear that you have come.
Act 21:23 Do therefore what we tell you. We have four men who are under a vow;
Act 21:24 take these men and purify yourself along with them and pay their expenses, so that they may shave their heads. Thus all will know that there is nothing in what they have been told about you, but that you yourself also live in observance of the law.
Act 21:25 But as for the Gentiles who have believed, we have sent a letter with our judgment that they should abstain from what has been sacrificed to idols, and from blood, and from what has been strangled, and from sexual immorality."
Act 21:26 Then Paul took the men, and the next day he purified himself along with them and went into the temple, giving notice when the days of purification would be fulfilled and the offering presented for each one of them.

See again I am not saying they HAVE to keep the law. I am not saying they NEED to keep the law. I am saying they SHOULD Keep the law so they can lead other Jews to Christ. The law teaches those Jews in types and shadows about Jesus and it's a perfect way to show non believing Jews the truth. The Ceder ceremony is a perfect example of that. Believing Jews can use it to show their unbelieving Jewish friends the Truth of Christ

Re: JEWS!
 

Paul looked at people under law as being distinct from him by the way he termed this next passage.

1 Corinthians 9:20-21 KJV (20) And unto the Jews I became as a Jew, that I might gain the Jews; to them that are under the law, as under the law, that I might gain them that are under the law; (21) To them that are without law, as without law, (being not without law to God, but under the law to Christ,) that I might gain them that are without law.

I think that means he did not keep facets of law except to win Jews.

I find no evidence of Paul personally continuing in rituals because he was jewish, but only to win Jews.

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I agree. My last post showed that. But some are saying here that Paul personally kept the rituals aside from using that to reach jews. They feel it was retaining his culture. I disagree.

I agree with that. However, I disagree he did it because he retained personal jewish culture in his life.

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Exactly...being a Christian by reason of the New Birth does not mean they are no longer Jewish by reason of natural birth.

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Jews are not a race. Natural birth does not make anyone a Jew. RELIGION alone makes one a Jew. That is whey gentiles can BECOME JEWS.

With all due respect, natural birth is negated in the Kingdom. Our old man, naturally born, is dead with Christ and we are new creatures.

I maintain, personally (just my views), that Jews converted to Christ should not keep anything from law except, as Praxeas said, to perhaps win other jews.

It's just that it proposes a mindset that we really are not not new creatures, and that carries some bad baggage that will eventually affect our personal outlook on self.

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It's a part of the over all Jewish Culture. It is a part of their Jewishness. They don't have to keep it, but to forsake it completely presents a stumbling block to others....it's a great witnessing tool to other Jews.

Why do you think the Jewish believers in the bible kept it? Even James does not seem ready to tell them they need to stop

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No, the "law" of Christ IS the fulfillment.

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Converted Jews (A Jew is a Judaist, so once a Christian, he/she is no longer a Jew -- it's not a race but religious adherence -- which is how gentiles can become JEWS by joining their religion) are no longer Jews. It is not natural birthing, since Jew is not a race. He/she is solely a religious adherent.

So the rituals are not cultural but COVENANTAL. We need to remove the thought of Jews being a race. And then we can understand it. Since a new covenant is here, the jewishness of the OLD COVENANT, and not culture, is gone.

Early believers who were formerly Jews actually thought they HAD TO continue in the rituals. Paul even had problems explaining to them otherwise. Paul was the first to get revelation about the issue. He fought with many believers in the church. They would not accept his revelation. And the temple destruction proved Paul correct.

Mike Conn wrote a great book about that called the Heresy of the Judaizers.

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From JUDAISM 101 - A Jewish website: http://www.jewfaq.org/judaism.htm

Being "Jewish" is not a cultural thing, unless you realize that their culture was OLD COVENANT life. Since there has been a change of covenants, I would say God no longer wills these things in their lives.

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WoW! After starting off with a string of several post where he was so glaringly wrong because his opinion differed from mine; the Rev has made a stunning come back by showing an almost prescient ability to agree with me.

(Either that, or if we both just kept talking it was inevitable that we would eventually agree about something!). :toofunny

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Bro. Alex, do you believe in "Once Saved always Saved?"

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No, people do, and God CHANGES which covenant is in effect or not.

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Just like a Baptist becomes a Baptist....

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(Either that, or if we both just kept talking it was inevitable that we would eventually agree about something!).

I think that's it! :toofunny :toofunny

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I don't recall saying that it had been done away with, what I said that it was fulfilled in Jesus Christ. I think people fail to understand the word fulfilled... If you own a buisness and your sent a order to fill, when you put the last item in the box, you have fulfilled the order.

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For Jews themselves it's not just a religious adherent. They have history upon history of being a Jew...even Atheists Jews call themselves Jews. So for many their religious identity is part of who and what they are born as.
That does not prevent it from becoming part of their culture. Their culture is very much influenced by their religious beliefs and customs.

AGain that is irrelevant to the discussion. THEY view themselves as a historical people who are BORN into Jewish families. It's not just religion. God made his covenant with a people...not with a religion. Who and What they are today and in the past are Jews. They are the Jewish people. Whether or not you agree is not even the issue. That is how they see themselves. Religion is part of culture.. That is why John said "He came to his own and his own received Him not"...they were his people. Even then they were not keeping the law...they were His people.

For Jews who are STILL Jews and do NOT believe there is a New Covenant the Old Covenant is still relevant and still a deep part of Jewish culture today.

Lets go back to the verses I posted Mike....Paul was asked by James to take these Jewish believers to the Temple and show everyone that he is NOT teaching them to forsake Moses....great time for Paul to stand by his newfound principles.....

And again Acts 15....the Jews wanted the Gentiles to Keep the law...the decision was not "none of us should keep it"...but rather "The Gentiles should not keep it EXCEPT FOR...." and he lists some and the reason was simply because Moses was read in every city. Jews kept the law still. It would have been a great time to say "none of us need to", but because it was so ingrained into the Jewish psyche and culture they never told them they should forsake Moses. Paul never taught to forsake Moses. He taught keeping Moses will not save you. Even Paul himself had taken a vow and was to undergo a Jewish purification ritual.

It was a part of who they were. It had become not just a set of laws but a part of their culture and national identity. To utterly forsake it all would have made witnessing to Jews totally impossible. Even then the rumors were that Paul taught to forsake Moses. That made it harder and harder to reach Jews..

Jewish converts should keep the law IMO and go to Synagogue and witness to other Jews until they are kicked out. They should accept Christ but not forsake Moses so they can keep winning those souls

I think we are way off the issue here Mike. Or perhaps you don't understand my point.

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The Law has become a part of their culture. Being Jewish by birth, by national identity for many those rituals and practices are a part of that.