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Rhoni 02-08-2008 08:23 PM

Family Structure
 
The Impact of Membership in a Rigid, Fundamentalist Religious Movement on Family Structure as it Relates to Bowen’s Family Systems Therapy

Rhonda R. Cyprus, Indiana Wesleyan University

__________________________________________________ _____________________

Abstract

I draw from existing literature to explore the effects of the influence of rigid, fundamentalist religious membership (RFRM) on family structure. It is my belief that when the authority of the family is entrusted to church leadership it can cause structural dysfunction within the family. This could include: enmeshment between church and family, the undermining of parental authority, and delayed individuation. Limited research has been done related to RFRM, therefore, using Bowen’s family systems therapy, existing research, and a biblical approach to healthy families I will explore how familiar fundamentalist practices may result in structural dysfunctions within families. The intent of this study is to create awareness of possible pitfalls related to practices within the RFRM, and to deter these in an effort to preserve healthy families within our society.


“Bowen’s Family Systems therapy has by far the most comprehensive view of human behavior and human problems of any approach to family treatment” (Nichols, M., & Schwartz, R. 1998. p. 141). Bowen’s family systems therapy is a theoretical-clinical model evolving from psychoanalytical principles and practices (p. 142). Although Bowenian theory has evolved and expanded, it has always centered on the counter-
balancing life forces of : togetherness and individuality (p. 144). The terms used to describe the unbalancing of the force of togetherness is; fusion, stuck-togetherness, and differentiation (Kerr & Bowen, 1988). Differentiation is the capacity of an individual for autonomous functioning. Before one can mature into a healthy, mature personality, unresolved emotional attachment to one’s family must be resolved (Nichols, M. & Schwartz, R. 1998. P.144). Bowen is convinced that differentiation of autonomous personalities is necessary for normal/healthy development and a prescription for therapeutic improvement (P. 150). Bowen describes emotional oneness or fusion in families as “undifferentiated family ego mass” (P. 150).

Unresolved conflicts in families lead to a series of overlapping triangles (Andres, 1971). Instead of conflict being addressed by the two people involved, it is detoured when a third party becomes triangled in. The third party may be a friend, minister, colleague, or a therapist (Andres, 1971). This is not seen as a problem when the third party can remain neutral or objective. It is worth exploring to look at some possible repercussions if the third party comes from leadership within a RFRM. When personal, or familial boundaries are violated by religious leadership it may cause structural dysfunction within the family, and delay personal individuation by a member of such.
Bowen believes that change in any one triangle can change the entire family system.

Salvador Minuchin has provided invaluable research and clinical experience in the area of family structure. In the 1970’s his development of a theory of family structure created the opportunity for new structures to emerge, and structural family therapy emerged as perhaps the most influential in the field (Structural Family Therapy (1998) Pp. 241-242). Family Structure is defined as: “the organized pattern in which family members interact, is a deterministic concept, but it doesn’t prescribe or legislate behavior; it describes sequences that are predictable” (p. 244). When transactions within families are repeated they foster expectations as to what the pattern for the family will continue to be. The assignment of roles and responsibilities within a family are assigned early in the marriage

Within every family are the spoken and unspoken rules of engagement that identify the family patterns. Who will lead, who will follow, who will take care of the house, and who will take out the garbage are some of the patterns that are formed early on. If there are children involved then there may be the unspoken rule of which parent defers to whom in areas of responsibility or decision-making.

There is also a hierarchal structure of authority within families that give each member a different amount of authority. There are reciprocal and complementary functions within families by the different members also. This family structure is partly shaped by universal and partly idiosyncratic constraints (SFT (1998) p. 244).

Biblical patterns of hierarchy taught by most RFRM’s put Christ as the head of the man, man the head of the woman, and women take care of the children but are under the husband/father’s authority also (I Corinthians chapter 11, King James Version (KJV)).
When the headship or leadership of the family is given, by the man, to a person of leadership within a RFRM, or even a single parent female, then this opens the door for dysfunction to occur. It is here that the enmeshment of church with family begins.
The leaders of RFRM make decisions as to what is best for the church body, and can’t always be objective enough to help the family members decide what is in their best interest, nor is it their responsibility to do so. “Enmeshed subsystems offer a heightened sense of mutual support, but at the expense of independence and autonomy” (SFT (1998) P. 246). Enmeshment causes dependence when applied to families within the church. Many already dysfunctional family systems are attracted to the church to help them sustain themselves, such as; married women with alcoholic or abusive husbands with co-dependency issues needing support for their circumstances and help in raising their children, single parent families, through death, divorce, or children born out of wedlock, and mentally ill people looking for emotional and financial help. Most RFRM leaders are trained in the scripture as to the process of salvation through the redemptive process of sanctification but are ill prepared to meet the psychological needs of dysfunctional family systems. The dysfunctional family members are looking for a quick fix to their family patterns by letting someone else, leaders within RFRM, to make their decisions for them. This dependence also keeps the new convert from developing into a mature Christian “…and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat.” (Hebrews 5:12, KJV).


Rhoni 02-08-2008 08:26 PM

Re: Family Structure
 
Family

What is a normal/healthy family? “Normal families modify their structure to accommodate to changed circumstances” (SFT (1998) p. 249). When two people marry there is progressive accommodation and boundary making. Accommodation begins as they compromise on: which end of the toothpaste to squeeze, when meals are to be eaten, or what is to be prepared and by whom. Each person tries to model their own family of origin traditions and interactions, and pressures the other to accommodate. Both come into the marriage with expectations of what their marriage is supposed to be, and things are easier if they agree on the major issues, such as; the number of children, which church they will go to, where to live, and parenting style. Healthy couples will each give a little and take a little until they reach a balance that is right for them. If they can’t agree or accommodate each other this is when troubles/dysfunctions begin. This is one of the reasons that RFRM teaches to “Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers…” (II.Corinthians 6:14. KJV). If a RFRM member marries someone that does not share this belief system the marriage begins with a major hurdle.

Negotiating boundaries is one way of accommodating. The boundaries between the couple, and the outside world are an area of concern. Most RFRM teach “…For this cause shall a man leave father and mother, and shall cleave to his wife…” (Matthew 19:5. KJV). When a couple only see themselves as a unit, they are said to have diffuse boundaries. They most often do things together, have the same activities in common, same friends, and make joint decisions. They also have joint bank accounts and know where each other are at any given time, and speak often on the phone with each other while at work. Those couples with rigid boundaries maintain individual bank accounts, finances, have separate interests, separate friends, and even go as far as to have separate vacations. While neither of the two types defines enmeshment or disengagement it suggests a pattern that will develop. Spouses that come from families with differing degrees of enmeshment and disengagement feel more comfortable with the degree of proximity that exists from their particular family of origin (SFT, 1998).

The addition of children to the marriage transforms the spousal subsystem into a parental subsystem, and a sibling subsystem. “Even in normal (healthy) families, children bring great potential for stress and conflict (SFT, 1998. p.248). Looking at RFRM as a collectivist culture, a person is much more likely to be under the influence of group defined norms and roles, are attached to fewer outside groups, but it highly defines one’s identity (Hui, 1988). The role of a mother in RFRM is that of a caregiver to the children and as a homemaker. Because of this, traditionally the woman’s life undergoes the most radical changes when a child is born.

Cults

In The Kingdom of the Cults, by Walter Martin, M.A., Ph.D., he describes the psychological structure of cults. It is worthwhile to note that many of these same characteristics may apply to RFRM as well. “First and foremost, the belief systems of the cults are characterized by closed-mindedness”(p. 24). They are not interested in cognitive evaluation of facts but invoke the bible to prove their point and indoctrinate their members to believe that they are the only source of truth.

“Secondly, cultic belief systems are characterized by genuine antagonism on a personal level since the cultist almost always identifies his dislike of the messenger who holds opposing beliefs” (Martin, 1982. p. 25). Many RFRM openly forbid association with members of other churches in the same fellowship or other organizations that do not believe the way they do. If a member chooses not to obey or to disagree with the group teachings they are ‘disfellowshipped’ and in most cases shunned by church members that they have known and loved for years, some even their own family members. “Experience has shown me that when this is accomplished it is the first step in a systematic under-cutting of one of the basic problems all cultists face in inter-personal contact, the problem of hostility toward those who reject their interpretations” (P. 25).

“Thirdly, almost without exception cultic belief systems all manifest a type of institutional dogmatism and a pronounced intolerance for any position but their own” (Martin, 1982, p. 25). Martin did not mean to imply that all authoritarian dogmatism is negative. He agrees that dogmatism of the doctrine of Jesus Christ’s teachings are valid and true, but that cult systems “tend to invest with the authority of the supernatural whatever pronouncements are deemed necessary to condition and control the mind of the faithful” (P. 26). It is my personal experience that when ever I felt led to do something that the RFRM leaders did not approve of they would tell me that “God spoke to me” and it “wasn’t God’s will”.


The fourth has to do with the concept of isolationism, from: family, public schools, extra-curricular activities, and contemporary society as a whole. The RFRM use the scripture…

Elision & Sherkat (1993) examined the relationship between religious affiliation, parental values, and agreement with corporal punishment. They found that conservative protestants and, to a lesser extent, Catholics value obedience and support corporal punishment more than other Americans “He that spareth his rod hateth his son…” (Proverbs 13:24. KJV). More conservative denominations place emphasis on conformity and obedience to authority whereas liberal more on volunteer and individual choice (Hoge, 1979). Children are taught to “…obey them that have rule over you, and submit yourselves…” (Hebrews 13:17, KJV), and to “…obey your parents…” (Colossians 3:20, KJV). The RFRM also teaches that if a man desires to be a leader in the church he must “…rule well his own house, having his children in subjection…” (I Timothy 3:4. KJV).









Cindy 02-09-2008 03:31 AM

Re: Family Structure
 
What is RFRM?

Rhoni 02-09-2008 06:14 AM

Re: Family Structure
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by cneasttx (Post 384357)
What is RFRM?

Rigid Fundamentalist Religious Movement. :toofunny My computer was acting up yesterday and I see this was posted twice. It only needs once and one or both can be deleted. The discussion will not gain as much interst as the gossip going on.LOL

Blessings, Rhoni

scotty 02-09-2008 08:35 AM

Re: Family Structure
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Rhoni (Post 384377)
Rigid Fundamentalist Religious Movement. :toofunny My computer was acting up yesterday and I see this was posted twice. It only needs once and one or both can be deleted. The discussion will not gain as much interst as the gossip going on.LOL

Blessings, Rhoni

Actually it is interesting. And much more informative than the gossip.

First read reaction I found myself offended that BFS seemingly was attacking my belief of God in the family. I have since reread and calmed down..lol.. I believe there is a balance a pastor has to maintain so as to be able to counsel in family matters while not injecting himself as a part of the structure. The man is also responsible in guarding for this. The chain of authority is Christ, man, woman, children. It did not include pastors, ministers or religious leaders. These positions are of counsel and teaching only, not authority. Even their authority comes from Christ. They should counsel the authority of the family without becoming the authority. A good pastor can maintain that balance.

The absence of man in the structure I believe is simply just that. The woman then answers directly to Christ and she can be counseled in her authority over the home by the pastor. Even in this scenerio the pastor still should not inject himself into the structure of the family.

I do believe there is a missing factor that can not be included into this study of influences. Prayer. This is the spiritual aspect of RFRM that cannot be studied or analyzed. However, if practiced biblically, will in itself act as a detering factor to the structure being comprimised.

I'm not particularly fond of being compared to a "cult" however that analogy is evidence of just how little the collegic world truly understands the difference in religion as a fundamental belief instead of a cutural principal.

Rhoni 02-09-2008 10:57 AM

Re: Family Structure
 
Scotty,

Thank-you for your well thought out remarks.

Blessings, Rhoni

OP_Carl 02-10-2008 01:21 PM

Re: Family Structure
 
When some people first come to Christ, their lives and family structures can be such a mess that those of the more established families appear to be ideal. It is small wonder that a dysfunctional new family would consider asking the man who helped them to become Christians to help them sort out their family life. They want to short-circuit the process to the stability that they see in the other families.

Another point I would toss out there is that a lot of today's psychology, whether analyzing family structures or one of the myriad childhood "disorders," has a very nebulous and often un-fixed notion of what is "normal." Most people have a concept that "normal" families are a lot like them, but without their negative traits and perhaps a little better at one or two group skills. I believe that the truth is that what is normal is for all families to have a little dysfunction here and there. If they didn't, the psychology types would all be looking for honest work! :toofunny ;)

These new breeds of disorders are diagnosed without so much as a urine sample. It is all subjective. Two different evaluators can get two completely different results when scoring a child for ADD, ODD, or one of the autism "spectrum disorders." (what's up with that? It used to be you either had autism, or you didn't!) And the different results can not only come from different personality or family types of the evaluators, but even such whimsical variables as what they had for lunch, or whether they'd had an argument with somebody in the previous 24 hours.

I just have a hard time accepting psychology's pursuit of a mystical, perhaps even mythological, "normalcy."

I wonder what prognosis psychologists would have assigned to the prophet Ezekiel, or king David? What would psychology have to say about the apostles, who literally dropped their livelihoods at their feet and followed Jesus on the basis of two spoken words? That has never been normal. Do you suppose that the families of some of Jesus' disciples and followers had no distress about their dear ones' new cultic behavior? What would have been normal for Simon Peter? What was right for him?

Thanks for posting this Rhoni; it's good to think about these things from time to time.

True Believer 02-10-2008 02:17 PM

Re: Family Structure
 
Wow, that is a whole lot to read! I will have to come back to this when I have more time.

Rhoni 02-10-2008 02:41 PM

Re: Family Structure
 
While some think this is open season on the study of psychology, it isn't. In my months of intense research I found that dysfunctional families gravitated to authoritarian [rigid fundamentalist religious groups] churches for a reason. They didn't know what normal was and it is easier to let other people tell you what to do than to find 'healthy' for yourself. Which just adds to the dysfunction.

Even the Bible, actually where many of the psychological theories are found, is all about transgenerational sins and 'issues' within the family. From Genesis to Revelation we see examples of healthy familes and examples of unhealthy families. Sexual impurity, interracial marriages, homosexuality, incest, pedophilia, and even infanticide.

I think it strange that people would blame psychology for all the mess when it started back when Adam and Eve screwed up in the garden.

Blessings, Rhoni

Cindy 02-10-2008 03:43 PM

Re: Family Structure
 
So to put it simply, sin causes dysfunction.

Cindy 02-10-2008 03:45 PM

Re: Family Structure
 
I am glad to say that I have never been to a rigid fundamentalist church. Thank you Jesus.

Rhoni 02-10-2008 06:16 PM

Re: Family Structure
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by cneasttx (Post 385735)
So to put it simply, sin causes dysfunction.

ABSOLUTELY!!!!

Rhoni 02-10-2008 06:17 PM

Re: Family Structure
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by cneasttx (Post 385738)
I am glad to say that I have never been to a rigid fundamentalist church. Thank you Jesus.

Girl Texas was always liberal compared to where I was raised. I can't believe this Ohio girl is actually here. There goes my reputation!:girlytantrum

commonsense 02-20-2008 10:50 AM

Re: Family Structure
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Rhoni (Post 385722)
While some think this is open season on the study of psychology, it isn't. In my months of intense research I found that dysfunctional families gravitated to authoritarian [rigid fundamentalist religious groups] churches for a reason. They didn't know what normal was and it is easier to let other people tell you what to do than to find 'healthy' for yourself. Which just adds to the dysfunction.

Even the Bible, actually where many of the psychological theories are found, is all about transgenerational sins and 'issues' within the family. From Genesis to Revelation we see examples of healthy familes and examples of unhealthy families. Sexual impurity, interracial marriages, homosexuality, incest, pedophilia, and even infanticide.

I think it strange that people would blame psychology for all the mess when it started back when Adam and Eve screwed up in the garden.

Blessings, Rhoni


From my observations, I totally agree with this analysis.

Rhoni 02-25-2008 06:23 PM

Re: Family Structure
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by commonsense (Post 395376)
From my observations, I totally agree with this analysis.

:party

Sister Alvear 02-25-2008 06:28 PM

Re: Family Structure
 
Thank you for posting this Rhoni...

Rhoni 02-25-2008 06:32 PM

Re: Family Structure
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Sister Alvear (Post 401087)
Thank you for posting this Rhoni...

You're welcome...I am still thinking about that trip. I was telling the people I work with about it and the comments they made were:

1. "That is one of the poorest regions in S.A. - could you survive that?" My answer is...of course. There is not living up to certain 'standards' and the people would be thankful for anything you could contribute.

2. "I can see you doing that, you love to travel, love people, and love to help". Yes, I do.

God loves all of us, me included although I am from a very dysfunctional family myself.:tissue

Sister Alvear 02-25-2008 06:36 PM

Re: Family Structure
 
Yes, this is the poorest state in Brazil but the Lord has blessed us with a beautiful mission compound...we are very blessed.

Rhoni 02-25-2008 06:42 PM

Re: Family Structure
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Sister Alvear (Post 401096)
Yes, this is the poorest state in Brazil but the Lord has blessed us with a beautiful mission compound...we are very blessed.

You have a beautiful church and a great group of worshippers. You know who would be a blessing to come visit also? Bro. Griffin's daughter sings in Spanish with the praise team and does an awesome job....I just bet that [Do you sing?] I could interpret in Sign and sign is universal for the most part. Do you do that sign, drama, sticks, mime & such?

Rhoni 07-16-2009 09:20 AM

Re: Family Structure
 
Just thought this thread could be beneficial to those still struggling with this issue. If your church causes conflict and strife within the family and there is enmeshment with church leadership into family situations then you might want to look at changing churches and repairing family relationships that are caused by adherence to rigid rules and regulations that are not Biblical or matters of salvation.

It is sad when these extra-biblical teaching destroy families that would otherwise be healthy and happy in relationship to Christ and others.

Blessings, Rhoni

TJJJ 07-16-2009 03:15 PM

Re: Family Structure
 
Rhoni

We are seeing the results, in many pentecostal churches, both con and liberal, where the pastor wants to step into the home and try to pastor the family around the headship of the father. This is an absolute disaster proven to be wrong time and time again.

Enjoyed the article

TJJJ

Rhoni 07-17-2009 06:24 AM

Re: Family Structure
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by TJJJ (Post 773576)
Rhoni

We are seeing the results, in many pentecostal churches, both con and liberal, where the pastor wants to step into the home and try to pastor the family around the headship of the father. This is an absolute disaster proven to be wrong time and time again.

Enjoyed the article

TJJJ

Thank you TJ. My father was not in the church but was a good man. He complained many times that he had no authority over his home because my mother only obeyed the pastor and whatever he said. I think it was one of the reasons why it took my father so long to give his life to God.

Just my observations; many poverty level or under-educated people, as well as the truly dysfunctional give someone else control over themselves and their lives. This is not something easily done to those who have more finances [with money comes more choices], and the more educated just will not allow it to happen.

There appears to be a correlation between these things and the reasons why it is more difficult for authoritarian or controlling Pastors to have the more educated in their churches. They use the excuse that they are not "in submission", but the truth is they are not going to foolishly give up the reigns of their life to another's control. They will talk to God themselves. This 'spiritual maturity' seems to bother some ministers - wonder why since that should be their ultimate goal to grow up spiritual babies to mature saints.

Blessings, Rhoni

commonsense 07-17-2009 11:26 AM

Re: Family Structure
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Rhoni (Post 773831)
Thank you TJ.

Just my observations; many poverty level or under-educated people, as well as the truly dysfunctional give someone else control over themselves and their lives. This is not something easily done to those who have more finances [with money comes more choices], and the more educated just will not allow it to happen.

There appears to be a correlation between these things and the reasons why it is more difficult for authoritarian or controlling Pastors to have the more educated in their churches. They use the excuse that they are not "in submission", but the truth is they are not going to foolishly give up the reigns of their life to another's control. They will talk to God themselves. This 'spiritual maturity' seems to bother some ministers - wonder why since that should be their ultimate goal to grow up spiritual babies to mature saints.

Blessings, Rhoni

This has been my observation and understanding also. The total controlling pastor usually doesn't have the highly educated in his congregation. They're able to think for themselves.:thumbsup

TJJJ 07-17-2009 11:56 AM

Re: Family Structure
 
I have been all through the UPCI, around the ACI and ultracons for a long time. The one thing I have seen consistently is a tendency by these to micromanage EVERY facet of people's lives. It breeds an immaturity among the people as they no longer have to think for themselves or make any decisions.

Our pastor says to seek counsel on large decisions, as the pastor should be a counselor, but ultimeley that decision should be the individuals.

We had a situation here that a woman's unsaved husband told her he did not want her coming to church for a few months. She had just went through chemo and had lost her hair.

They asked Pastor what to do, he said she needed to submit to the authority of her husband in this thing. What we did instead, was to visit her in her home and take the "church" to her! Weekly visits, tapes, and uplifting calls took her through this crisis and today she is back to attending church and her husband likes the church because at no time did he ever feel threatened by the assembly. He was not fighting the church for his wife!

He mows the lawns sometimes and always has a good word to say about the church. Could you imagine the division if Pastor had tried to go around the husband? We would never be able to win that man! Now, we have inroads because we left the family authority intact!

God is good!

commonsense 07-17-2009 06:08 PM

Re: Family Structure
 
A very wise pastor. I Cor 12:8

ILG 07-19-2009 09:34 AM

Re: Family Structure
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by TJJJ (Post 773987)
He mows the lawns sometimes and always has a good word to say about the church. Could you imagine the division if Pastor had tried to go around the husband? We would never be able to win that man! Now, we have inroads because we left the family authority intact!

God is good!

I have seen this happen and it causes bitter feelings, indeed. Sounds like a wise choice on the part of your pastor.

Blubayou 07-19-2009 12:06 PM

Re: Family Structure
 
Very insightful comments on this thread. Interesting reading. I have been under a micromanaging pastor and seen first hand the damage it will do to individuals, families and the church in general.

Rhoni 07-20-2009 09:23 AM

Re: Family Structure
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Rhoni (Post 773831)
Thank you TJ. My father was not in the church but was a good man. He complained many times that he had no authority over his home because my mother only obeyed the pastor and whatever he said. I think it was one of the reasons why it took my father so long to give his life to God.

Just my observations; many poverty level or under-educated people, as well as the truly dysfunctional give someone else control over themselves and their lives. This is not something easily done to those who have more finances [with money comes more choices], and the more educated just will not allow it to happen.

There appears to be a correlation between these things and the reasons why it is more difficult for authoritarian or controlling Pastors to have the more educated in their churches. They use the excuse that they are not "in submission", but the truth is they are not going to foolishly give up the reigns of their life to another's control. They will talk to God themselves. This 'spiritual maturity' seems to bother some ministers - wonder why since that should be their ultimate goal to grow up spiritual babies to mature saints.

Blessings, Rhoni

Quote:

Originally Posted by commonsense (Post 773978)
This has been my observation and understanding also. The total controlling pastor usually doesn't have the highly educated in his congregation. They're able to think for themselves.:thumbsup

Quote:

Originally Posted by TJJJ (Post 773987)
I have been all through the UPCI, around the ACI and ultracons for a long time. The one thing I have seen consistently is a tendency by these to micromanage EVERY facet of people's lives. It breeds an immaturity among the people as they no longer have to think for themselves or make any decisions.

Our pastor says to seek counsel on large decisions, as the pastor should be a counselor, but ultimeley that decision should be the individuals.

We had a situation here that a woman's unsaved husband told her he did not want her coming to church for a few months. She had just went through chemo and had lost her hair.

They asked Pastor what to do, he said she needed to submit to the authority of her husband in this thing. What we did instead, was to visit her in her home and take the "church" to her! Weekly visits, tapes, and uplifting calls took her through this crisis and today she is back to attending church and her husband likes the church because at no time did he ever feel threatened by the assembly. He was not fighting the church for his wife!

He mows the lawns sometimes and always has a good word to say about the church. Could you imagine the division if Pastor had tried to go around the husband? We would never be able to win that man! Now, we have inroads because we left the family authority intact!

God is good!

TJ, Thank you for the flip side of this. Many times we only see the negative as it is so prominent, but there are some very wise pastors who know their role and how to spiritually grow up their saints.

I know I have said this before but it bears repeating: John Maxwell has a leadership series that describes the different leadership styles and how successful they are in mentoring leaders.

Many ALJC & UPCI leaders are not able to mentor and send out leaders because they are easily threatened or intimidated by those who are educated or those who are strong capable leaders. It takes a strong and capable leader to be able to raise up leaders.

I watched one church which was filled with strong capable leaders dwindle to half the size and rebuild with followers as the leaders hit upon the same wall of being demoted, their positions deleted, and the ministry leadership continue to be intimidated and needed others to affirm him by obeying his every command before he would allow them a credible leadership position.

The mass exodus of reputable, capable leaders spawned a revial with a Pastor's friend speaking on how God was weeding out he unfruitful branches from the vine which was not the case at all. This was the only message I ever heard from this reputable evangelist that was not God anointed but Pastor driven.

I think that young ministers coming up need more education, and more mentoring by capable leaders so they won't fall into the trap that so many fall into with their little group of obedient servants that think they hung the moon so they never realize their full potential in ministry.

As always, just my observational opinion.

Blessings, Rhoni

Withdrawn 07-20-2009 10:39 AM

Re: Family Structure
 
Good thoughts here Rhoni.

This is a very prevalent mindset in our ranks - ALJC and UPCI. My pastor (also my BIL) recently went on a 11-day fishing trip in Canada. We have a small congregation (50 - 60 folks). Some of his pastor-friends expressed disbelief that he would leave the church for so long. One of these men has sworn that he would NEVER have even an assistant pastor because he doesn't want someone else coming in and wrestling control from him. HOW SAD IS THAT?!?!

My BIL expressed to them that he appreciates all the help anyone is willing to give and was completely confident that he had people in the congregation who could pick up the extra slack and keep things going. He is about growing and maturing saints so that he has less to do - and he certainly has no desire to manage or micromanage peoples' lives.

BTW... we had some great studies and sermons in his absence - the work didn't fall apart. Imagine that! :lol

It comes down to this principle... if your teaching is nourishment as it's supposed to be, the saints will grow and learn to seek God for themselves. I do recognize that this is a rare commodity in our culture.

Rhoni 07-20-2009 10:42 AM

Re: Family Structure
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by jaamez (Post 775024)
Good thoughts here Rhoni.

This is a very prevalent mindset in our ranks - ALJC and UPCI. My pastor (also my BIL) recently went on a 11-day fishing trip in Canada. We have a small congregation (50 - 60 folks). Some of his pastor-friends expressed disbelief that he would leave the church for so long. One of these men has sworn that he would NEVER have even an assistant pastor because he doesn't want someone else coming in and wrestling control from him. HOW SAD IS THAT?!?!

My BIL expressed to them that he appreciates all the help anyone is willing to give and was completely confident that he had people in the congregation who could pick up the extra slack and keep things going. He is about growing and maturing saints so that he has less to do - and he certainly has no desire to manage or micromanage peoples' lives.

It comes down to this principle... if your teaching is nourishment as it's supposed to be, the saints will grow and learn to seek God for themselves. I do recognize that this is a rare commodity in our culture.

Sounds like your BIL has a lot going for him. Thank you for sharing this insight.

Blessings, Rhoni

Withdrawn 07-20-2009 10:58 AM

Re: Family Structure
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Rhoni (Post 775025)
Sounds like your BIL has a lot going for him. Thank you for sharing this insight.

Blessings, Rhoni

Another insight...

I re-read your article and it brought to mind something I witnessed for myself several years ago.

An area pastor has set himself up as the supreme authority over the people in his congregation. They had to ask his permission and advice for things like... applying for a specific job, purchasing a new home, going on vacation, etc. He was extremely controlling and, as was already pointed out, his congregation was typically the less educated among us - all with hearts to serve God to the extent He was revealed to them, but never mentored and discipled on how to live for God for themselves.

A scandal rocked the church (I don't recall the specifics) and there was a split. Many families came to our congregation, which at the time was considered stable, balanced and moderate. The unfortunate result of these families coming from a strictly controlled environment to a more moderate setting was that many didn't know how to live for God. They had been taught quite well how to serve a god of fierce rules and performance-based gospel, but had no concept of how to live for the TRUE GOD without someone dictating their every move. It's very sad to say, but most of these families have fallen completely away and have been ravaged by divorce, drunkenness, addictions, immorality, etc. Perhaps it's that pendulum effect that Bro. Wasmundt talks about. I have a hunch, though, that you have hit the nail on the head. It's because this "pastor" had set himself up as the head of every family in that congregation. The fathers/husbands had no idea how to step into their God-ordained role as leaders of their families because it had been usurped (abdicated, really) for so long.

TJJJ 07-20-2009 11:38 AM

Re: Family Structure
 
I think that the proper perspective, Biblically, would be that the husbands need to be the bishops of their own home, leading their families under the leadership of the ministry.

They and they alone are responsible for the good and the bad that happens in that home. The pastor is there to counsel, give Godly advice and to give direction for the body as a whole, knowing that the men are going to establish the direction in their individual homes.

Our pastor makes the comment that he is not there to pastor everybody in the church, except as the whole body, but he is there to pastor the men letting them lead their families. This works out very well except in the areas where men want to shirk their responsibilities.

This has Biblical precedence as in the case of Achan and his sin! That is why it is so important that men step up and take the reins.

Rhoni 07-20-2009 03:19 PM

Re: Family Structure
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by TJJJ (Post 775057)
I think that the proper perspective, Biblically, would be that the husbands need to be the bishops of their own home, leading their families under the leadership of the ministry.

They and they alone are responsible for the good and the bad that happens in that home. The pastor is there to counsel, give Godly advice and to give direction for the body as a whole, knowing that the men are going to establish the direction in their individual homes.

Our pastor makes the comment that he is not there to pastor everybody in the church, except as the whole body, but he is there to pastor the men letting them lead their families. This works out very well except in the areas where men want to shirk their responsibilities.

This has Biblical precedence as in the case of Achan and his sin! That is why it is so important that men step up and take the reins.

I Timothy 3:2 gives the responsibilities of the office of Pastor/Bishop and one of them is not to "counsel". There is a big difference between Pastor Counseling on spiritual precepts but it is different to actually counsel as most believe it to be; i.e., that the Pastor listens to the problem and tells them what to do [the husband]. A true "counselor" will help them explore their options and let them make the decision and accept responsibility for their decision.

Counselors empower individuals to make their own decisions based on facts and not irrational beliefs or over-spiritualizing matters.

Blessings, Rhoni

Rhoni 07-20-2009 03:23 PM

Re: Family Structure
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by jaamez (Post 775028)
Another insight...

I re-read your article and it brought to mind something I witnessed for myself several years ago.

An area pastor has set himself up as the supreme authority over the people in his congregation. They had to ask his permission and advice for things like... applying for a specific job, purchasing a new home, going on vacation, etc. He was extremely controlling and, as was already pointed out, his congregation was typically the less educated among us - all with hearts to serve God to the extent He was revealed to them, but never mentored and discipled on how to live for God for themselves.

A scandal rocked the church (I don't recall the specifics) and there was a split. Many families came to our congregation, which at the time was considered stable, balanced and moderate. The unfortunate result of these families coming from a strictly controlled environment to a more moderate setting was that many didn't know how to live for God. They had been taught quite well how to serve a god of fierce rules and performance-based gospel, but had no concept of how to live for the TRUE GOD without someone dictating their every move. It's very sad to say, but most of these families have fallen completely away and have been ravaged by divorce, drunkenness, addictions, immorality, etc. Perhaps it's that pendulum effect that Bro. Wasmundt talks about. I have a hunch, though, that you have hit the nail on the head. It's because this "pastor" had set himself up as the head of every family in that congregation. The fathers/husbands had no idea how to step into their God-ordained role as leaders of their families because it had been usurped (abdicated, really) for so long.

Absolutely right!!!:thumbsup This is where true education and counseling comes into effect. Saints need to be taught more from the pulpit and less one on one manipulating and controling families to suit their own purposes.

Even the best of counselors are taught how to recognize their biases and refer clients to others that they cannot counsel due to counter transference. Some Pastors will say they have the best interest of the familiy in mind but it isn't possible for them to separate the needs of the church from the needs of the family - especially when it affects the running of the church.

Blessing Rhoni

TJJJ 07-20-2009 05:39 PM

Re: Family Structure
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Rhoni (Post 775241)
I Timothy 3:2 gives the responsibilities of the office of Pastor/Bishop and one of them is not to "counsel". There is a big difference between Pastor Counseling on spiritual precepts but it is different to actually counsel as most believe it to be; i.e., that the Pastor listens to the problem and tells them what to do [the husband]. A true "counselor" will help them explore their options and let them make the decision and accept responsibility for their decision.

Counselors empower individuals to make their own decisions based on facts and not irrational beliefs or over-spiritualizing matters.

Blessings, Rhoni

1Ti 3:1 This is a true saying, If a man desire the office of a bishop, he desireth a good work.
1Ti 3:2 A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach;

Rhoni, you take one verse and make a doctrine that a pastor is only limited to be hospitable and able to teach?

What about:

Jer 3:15 And I will give you pastors according to mine heart, which shall feed you with knowledge and understanding.

Eph 4:11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;
Eph 4:12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:


or

2Ti 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
2Ti 3:17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.


I guess that counsel would fit in this somewhere!

commonsense 07-20-2009 09:18 PM

Re: Family Structure
 
Over 20 yrs ago briefly attended a church in another city and state. They had a communion service and I was surprised by his "delivery". Each family went forward as a group, then the father was given the communion "bread and wine" (truly I don't recall if it was wine or grape juice....)
Each father administered communion to his family.

For singles, and others without a family as such, the pastor or asst pastor gave communion for that circle of believers.

I just found it interesting to see this use of the father as the priest of his family.

Rhoni 07-21-2009 08:22 AM

Re: Family Structure
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by TJJJ (Post 775302)
1Ti 3:1 This is a true saying, If a man desire the office of a bishop, he desireth a good work.
1Ti 3:2 A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach;

Rhoni, you take one verse and make a doctrine that a pastor is only limited to be hospitable and able to teach?

What about:

Jer 3:15 And I will give you pastors according to mine heart, which shall feed you with knowledge and understanding.

Eph 4:11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;
Eph 4:12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:

or

2Ti 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
2Ti 3:17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

I guess that counsel would fit in this somewhere!

TJ,

I think you misunderstood. I do not make a doctrine...I am stating what the qualifications for a Bishop are and counsleing is not in there. The Bible talks about adding to as well as taking away from the word as written.

The description of what I compared Pastoral counseling to and secular counseling to are as scriptures are written. The reproof, instruction in righteousness, and doctrine are things to do primarily in a group of believers. That is why it is so important for Pastors to be "Teachers". If they cannot teach then they may indeed fall into another category; i.e., evangelist, prophet, ect.

I am sorry that you and I disagree on the subject but no where in the scriptures you quoted gives the Pastor qualification to "counsel". Your interpretation means you think it is implied. We can agree to disagree.:thumbsup

There are some Pastors who are equipped and trained to counsel and others shoot in the dark and do more damage than good.

Blessings, Rhoni

Rhoni 07-21-2009 08:25 AM

Re: Family Structure
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by commonsense (Post 775359)
Over 20 yrs ago briefly attended a church in another city and state. They had a communion service and I was surprised by his "delivery". Each family went forward as a group, then the father was given the communion "bread and wine" (truly I don't recall if it was wine or grape juice....)
Each father administered communion to his family.

For singles, and others without a family as such, the pastor or asst pastor gave communion for that circle of believers.

I just found it interesting to see this use of the father as the priest of his family.

Dear Commonsense,

I have seen this used but I do think many times the scriptures are used and applied in a way God did not intend. The misuse of the terms "spiritual head", "submission" are commonly used to give authoritarian men the justification they are looking for to be abusive to their wives and children.

Blessings, Rhoni

TJJJ 07-21-2009 10:14 AM

Re: Family Structure
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Rhoni (Post 775459)
TJ,

I think you misunderstood. I do not make a doctrine...I am stating what the qualifications for a Bishop are and counsleing is not in there. The Bible talks about adding to as well as taking away from the word as written.

The description of what I compared Pastoral counseling to and secular counseling to are as scriptures are written. The reproof, instruction in righteousness, and doctrine are things to do primarily in a group of believers. That is why it is so important for Pastors to be "Teachers". If they cannot teach then they may indeed fall into another category; i.e., evangelist, prophet, ect.

I am sorry that you and I disagree on the subject but no where in the scriptures you quoted gives the Pastor qualification to "counsel". Your interpretation means you think it is implied. We can agree to disagree.:thumbsup

There are some Pastors who are equipped and trained to counsel and others shoot in the dark and do more damage than good.

Blessings, Rhoni

Sigh and Alas Rhoni

I humbly acknowledge that you have the right to be wrong!:gotcha



More Blessings, TJJJ

Rhoni 07-21-2009 10:26 AM

Re: Family Structure
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by TJJJ (Post 775514)
Sigh and Alas Rhoni

I humbly acknowledge that you have the right to be wrong!:gotcha



More Blessings, TJJJ

:ursofunny:ursofunny:ursofunny:ursofunny LOL. That was good:thumbsup

The older I become the more I realize I don't know even what I thought I knew:) I am wrong more times than I'd like to confess to.

*hugs* Rhoni


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