The "Abomination that Maketh Desolate"
 

Daniel 11:31
And arms shall stand on his part, and they shall pollute the sanctuary of strength, and shall take away the daily sacrifice, and they shall place the abomination that maketh desolate.

Desolate:
deserted, abandoned, devoid of inhabitants or visitors, destitute, dissolute, deprivation, depopulate, barren, void, empty, forsaken, stark (Webster’s 3rd New International Dictionary, copyright 1986 by Merriam-Webster Inc)

Jesus said:
When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand;...) (Matthew 24:15) (see also Mark 13:14)

It is a commonly held belief that the phrases - “abomination that maketh desolate” and “abomination of desolation” - are references to the coming manifestation of the evil invisible spirit of Satan in human flesh [frequently called the “Anti-Christ”], an event which is prophesied throughout the Bible as one which is to transpire in the closing days of the present age.

Taking into consideration Webster’s definition of the word “desolate,” then one must pause and consider this important question: What entity (that is to say, thing with distinct and independent existence) shall the coming Anti-Christ “make desolate” following his manifestation in human flesh upon the earth, and through what means shall this exceptional “desolation” occur? Will it be a newly built Jewish temple in the city of Jerusalem that is to be rendered barren, void, empty, etc... (a belief common among many today), or do these phrases imply that the entire earth will be made "desolate" by the coming Anti-Christ?

What say ye? I would enjoy reading what some of the end-time prophecy “buffs” of this forum have to say concerning this matter. [And please, provide scriptural support for your views.]

Re: The "Abomination that Maketh Desolate"
 

abomination of desolation is the transgression of desolation because of sins/transgressions; notice it stands where it ought not, exalting itself against God or all that is worshipped, so that he as God, sitteth in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God. Rev. 11 speaks of a time, times, and dividing of time when the city shall be trodden under foot; at the same time God gives power to the church, the two witness so that they will prophesy a 1,260 days. We don't worry about the devil, we let the devil worry about us.... if the trumpet gives an uncertain sound, who shall prepare for the battle. the battle is the day of the battle of the Lord which we as the church must prepare for. Preparation (God will prepare or establish) is one of the two pillars of Solomon's temple being Jachin, the other Boaz meaning God will strengthen (same as Ezekiel). Jachin speaks of David who made preparation for the temple; and Boaz speaks of Solomon who built the temple...Solomon's temple was dedicated in Tishri (the 7th month) in contrast to Moses' tabernacle which was dedicated in the first month of Abib. There are two entirely different seasons, for it is in the month of Tishri or 7th month when Haggai (the Feast prophet) writes that the latter house will be greater than the former. The abomination of desolation stands behind many pulpits of today, not realizing the spiritual rather than the letter.

Re: The "Abomination that Maketh Desolate"
 

Interesting question. Can I pose another question related to yours? Given the prophetic utterances you listed about the desolation how then does the following fit in:

Matt 24:36-38
36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.
37 But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, (KJV)

Eating, drinking, marrying sounds more like a party atmosphere than a desolate atmosphere. Obviously the Word is right that which you posted and also these words of Jesus.

How then do both occur?

Re: The "Abomination that Maketh Desolate"
 

I would like to add..the audience of this whole chapter 24 is the disciples..This is Jesus telling THEM what THEY will see in THEIR lifetime :)

Re: The "Abomination that Maketh Desolate"
 

their lifetime?

Re: The "Abomination that Maketh Desolate"
 

Yes..Please look at Matthew 24 and notice all the personal pronouns..YOU

vs 1-And Jesus went out, and departed from the temple: and his disciples came to him for to shew him the buildings of the temple.{who came to him?}

vs 2 And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto YOU, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down. {Jesus speaking to who?..disciples}

vs 3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?
{Discisples came to him and said..TELL US} and the rest of the chapter unfolds with Jesus telling THEM..again look at the YOU's throughout}

4 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive YOU. Jesus speaking to who?

Please read the rest of this chapter even though I am sure you have read this countless times..but notice all the YOU's as this is Jesus speaking to his disciples..even in the popular verse 15

When YE{disciples} therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)

They were to see this happen in THEIR lifetime..it is very interesting I would think..

Re: The "Abomination that Maketh Desolate"
 

Dear Texas Friend...you must be of the same group of Elder Bloom. I personally feel different about this subject however I do not feel it is a heaven or hell issue for we will know exactly what it means at some point. May God bless you and please pray for us on the mission field.

Re: The "Abomination that Maketh Desolate"
 

I can agree that it is NOT a salvational issue..and I respect your feelings but at the same time I believe the scriptures speak for themselves.Go to any bookstore in America and you will see the shelves for "end times"just full and about every author and their uncle has wrote a book about what they think will happen.What you will not find is a book on what DID happen and what is found in Matthew 24.Those personal pronouns {YOU's} are hard to ignore and many people have been taught to slide themselves into those verses instead of allowing those scriptures to speak for themselves..I respect anyone who disagrees but it is not me they are disagreeing with it is in their own bible as well..The scriptures had an original audience and we fail to look through the eyes of that 1st century church.I cannot say I am total agreement with Elder Blume but we do see some things the same..

Your ministry will be in my prayers.God Bless

Re: The "Abomination that Maketh Desolate"
 

Would that mean that every time the Bible used YOU or YOUR it meant to those at that moment?
Would that not mean Acts 2:38 applies only to those Peter spoke to? ( I am seriously asking this question)

Re: The "Abomination that Maketh Desolate"
 

Sister Alvear..God Bless your heart.I really appreciate what you do in the field and you hold my dearest respect.I believe you are serious when you ask this question and I hope you believe that I am serious in my responses.I love the Lord and I do not want to mis-lead anyone but I also believe we have the written Word of God to stand on and by saying that I believe it is up to us to read this book and allow it to interpret itself and allow the Word to explain.One of the hardest things I had ever experienced in my walk with God was realizing the originality of the scriptures and by what I mean is..realizing to whom the original audience was..I was taught to open the Bible to the NT and believe when I read scripture..such as the Epistles and believe this was Paul writing directly and personally to me.This is how I used to read scriptures.But please allow me to give a good example..Look at 1 Cor 15:1-6


Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;

2 By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.

3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;

4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:

5 And that he was seen of Cephas, then of the twelve:

6 After that, he was seen of above five hundred brethren at once; of whom the greater part remain unto this present, but some are fallen asleep.

Do you see it?..If I was to read this verse As it is..it is saying some of the witnesses who saw Christ after He arose from the dead..was still alive unto this day..Now you and I both know we do not have witnesses walking on this earth today..who are older than 2,000 years old..But if were to read and understand the concept that scripture is "audience revelant"it would not be hard to understand that this was Paul speaking to the Church in Corinth some 2000 years ago..back to your question...


Would that mean that every time the Bible used YOU or YOUR it meant to those at that moment?

My anwser is...YES..this is what I believe..I am reading what was said to someone else..Matthew 24 alone is full of personal pronouns where Jesus spoke directly to his audience the disciples..


Would that not mean Acts 2:38 applies only to those Peter spoke to? ( I am seriously asking this question

my anwser again is yes...However....When we allow scripture to interpret scripture..We can know Jesus gave Peter the keys to the KOG..We can read where PEter went to each group of people found in scripture..the Jew,Samaritan,Gentile..and to each group HE opened the door to salvation..We can also read what Paul told the Church in Ephesus..2:20..

We know the message Peter gave is Acts 2:38..and we also know the promise is to ALL that are AFAR off..and we can read in John 17:20


Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;

This scripture plainly tells us that the Apostles were going to be responsible for preaching the message Jesus gave them to proclaim..It is amazing today that millions do not see it.We as Apostlics know the Apostles were part of the foundation and we are to be built upon their teaching..so when We read Acts 2:38..yes that was Peter speaking to THAT crowd THAT DAY but we should also be able to understand that this is the salvation message..and we need to obey the original plan and message Jesus gave to his apostles for the entire world..{Jn 17:20}.

It is interesting that we as believers do not have a hard time believing AND accepting the fact that the OT is history.We know when we read the OT we are reading the story of Israel..it is history..YET you and I can still turn to the Psalms to find comfort,Proverbs to find wisdom,We can read in Judges about the heroics of Sampson and in Samuel the story of David and his mighty men and the rest of the story about Israel..we have no problem of believing and understanding this about the OT but for some reason when it comes to the NT we get side tracked and have a hard time accepting that the NT also is history..yet we can STILL gain incredible insight and wisdom from that 1st century church..I hope I have helped some :)

Re: The "Abomination that Maketh Desolate"
 

In Luke 21:20-27, Luke's account of the passages in Matt.24 and Mark 13.

In the beginning of the chapter, Jesus has just commended the poor widow that gave
the two mites. Some brought up the subject of the temple, how it was adorned with
goodly stones and gifts. Jesus says as for these things you are beholding, the days are
coming, in which there shall not be left one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown
down. He is asked, Master (Teacher) when shall thee things be and what sign will there
be when these things shall come to pass.

Jesus tells them to take heed (notice) that no one deceives you, that many would come
in his name, declaring to be Christ and the time was drawing near. And go
not after those that were claiming to be Christ.

Jesus tells them other things, including the fact that there would be those who would
lay hands on them and persecute them, delivering them up to the synagogues,(jewish)
and into prisons, and they would be brought before kings and rulers for his name sake.

(Sounds exactly like what happened in the book of Acts.) He told them to not meditate
in their hearts what they would say for he would give them a mouth and wisdom that the
gainsayers would not be able to resist. They would be betrayed by their families and friends
and some (high priests and scribes, Saul of Tarsus, etc.) of them would they cause to
be put to death. He told them they would be hated by all men for his name sake. Then
he made a strange statement! "BUT there shall not an hair of your head perish". That
in their patience possess you your souls.

NOW NOTICE beginning with the 20th verse, "And when You shall see Jeresalem com-
passed
(surrounded) (1): to enclose on all sides : envelop <the crowd surrounded her>
(2): to enclose so as to cut off communication or retreat.
with armies, then know that the desolution thereof is nigh (near).

Vs.21, Jesus told them what to do: Let them that are in Judaea flee to the mountains;
and let (allow, permit) them that are in Jerusalem get out; and let them that are the
countries enter thereinto.

Vs.22, For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be
fulfilled. Read the rest of the chapter.

In Matt.24:29,30, Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sign of
the Son of man in heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken.

Vs.30 And then shall appear the SIGN of the Son in the heaven: and then shall all the
tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of
heaven with power and great glory.

(What did Jesus tell the high priest he would see! Matt. 26:63,64. He knew
what Jesus was telling him.)

Vs. 34, Verily (Truly) I say unto you, THIS generation shall not pass, till all these
things be fulfilled.

Rev.14:13, "And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed are the
dead which die in the Lord from henceforth (from now on): Yea, saith the Spirit,
that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow them.

Vs.14, And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud ONE sat like unto the
Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.

Another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the
cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap; for the time is come for thee to reap: for the harvest
of the earth is ripe. And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the
earth was reaped.

And another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle.

Vs.18, And another angel came out from the alter, which had power over fire; and cried
with a loud cry to him that had the sharp sickle, saying, Thrust in ty sharp sickle, and
gather the clusters of the vine of the earth; for her grapes are fully ripe. And the angel
thrust in his sickle into the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of
God.

Vs.20. And the winepress was trodden without the city, and blood came out of the
winepress, even unto the horse bridles, by the space of a thousand and six hundred
furlongs.

For three and one half years, God poured out His wrath upon those who rejected and spurn-
ed the Son He sent to same them. It happened to that wicked generation. The wicked unbe-
lieving generation of that day.

God never leaves Himself without witness! Did He have John write these things before-
hand that we might know what happened after the destruction of Jerusalem,
after the fact!!!

God sent His Son, the heir to save the inheritance, but the wicked men left in charge
killed the heir, wanting the inheritance for themselves. (King Herod, the unbelieving jews.
But those that received Jesus, to them gave he power to become sons of God, even as
many as believed on his name. They are still fighting over there for the land that belongs
to the heir and his name is JESUS!! The earth is the LORD's and the fulness therein.

Just some thoughts as I endeavor to follow on to know the Lord in a greater measure!
The OT and NT tell us that "All thy children shall be taught of the Lord." HOW?? By
the Spirit (Father). Does God want to homeschool HIS children! Just a thought. The
Father (Spirit) in Christ Jesus, taught him. He only DID and SAID the things
his Father told him to do and say! What's our problem! Does not the same Spirit dwell in us!

If you don't agree, let's agree to disagree. I don't say I am 100% right but with the help
of my Teacher (Holy Ghost), I will get it right. I am not the teacher, just the student
at this point.

Blessings,

Falla39

Re: The "Abomination that Maketh Desolate"
 

Now that sister Falla39 has revived this topic, I noticed Sis Alvear last commented on how she did not think YOU applied directly to the people in that day in Matt 24. I must point out that the context of YOU in Matt 23 through 24 does indeed indicate it was directly to those people alone in that day. Context is the factor. Matt 23 differentiated the people of that day to whom Jesus spoke, from their ancestors of the same nation by using the words THIS GENERATION. Jesus did not change that distinction when He used it in Matth 24, the very next chapter. THIS GENERATION in verse 34 is the same group of people that it meant in 23:36. Therefore, the use of the word YOU also must be limited to those people of that day.

And the following version of the Bible shwos this plainly!

Matthew 23:36 CEV I can promise that you people living today will be punished for all these things!

Matthew 24:34 CEV I can promise you that some of the people of this generation will still be alive when all this happens.

Matthew 24:34 GNB Remember that all these things will happen before the people now living have all died.

Re: The "Abomination that Maketh Desolate"
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sister Alvear
Would that mean that every time the Bible used YOU or YOUR it meant to those at that moment?
Would that not mean Acts 2:38 applies only to those Peter spoke to? ( I am seriously asking this question)

Sometimes I get lost among all the post. To put it in simple terms, in Acts 2:38 Peter was speaking to a group of people at the moment. I was not there. Yet, the message is the same today. It has not changed. So when I preach Acts 2:38 am I not preaching to a group of people at the moment?

Re: The "Abomination that Maketh Desolate"
 

Acts 2:38, 39:

Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the
name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye (you) shall receive the
gift of the Holy Ghost.
For the promise is unto you (Jews), and your (Jewish) children, and to all that
are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.

Peter concluded by telling those present to save themselves from that unto-
ward (corrupted) (NIV) generation. That "corrupted" generation was judged
at the end of that age.

God sent the Word made flesh to that generation first.
Jesus said the Jews required a sign and the only sign that was given was that
of Jona three days in the belly of the whale. It was symbolic of Jesus being three
days in the earth. He came unto his own and his own received him not, but to as
many as did receive him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even
to them that believe on his name. That happened when Paul told the unbelieving
Jews that since they didn't count themselves worthy, he now turned to the gentiles
for, said he, they will believe.

Yes, that corrupt generation was judged at the end of that age. 70AD.

Blessings,

Falla39

Re: The "Abomination that Maketh Desolate"
 

Dear Brother or Sister,

I enjoy learning what other people think and believe and how they view the Bible.
Please explain the statement in red. At the end of what age?

Re: The "Abomination that Maketh Desolate"
 

Bro. Jimmyrrs,

What I am basically referring to is the destruction of old natural Jerusalem,
the end of lawkeeping and animal sacrifices. The temple had become some-
thing that God never intended. Jesus really tore things up when he went
into the temple and accused those there, of using the temple as a "den of
theives". Jesus said his house was to be called a house of prayer for all
people, but you have made it "a den of theives".

The end of the Old Covenant, the entering in of the New Covenant with
better things, better promises, etc.

The last chapter of Rev., 22: 17, sounds like an invitation. "And the Spirit
(Father) and the bride say, Come. And let (allow, permit) him that heareth
say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take
the water of life freely.

An entrance or invitation into the everlasting Kingdom of God. The Church.

These are some thoughts as I study to shew myself approved of God,
a worker that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of
truth.

Blessings,

Sis. Falla39

Re: The "Abomination that Maketh Desolate"
 

Ok, Thanks for the reply.

Re: The "Abomination that Maketh Desolate"
 

Agreed. That is why I said CONTEXT determines whether or not the YOU in any given verse is referring only to a people in that moment of the speaking or to anyone. Matth 24:34 limits the YOU in Matt 24 to the people living at that time Jesus spoke.

Re: The "Abomination that Maketh Desolate"
 

very well put..good point and very accurate...if we followed the same rules thru out the entire bible we would keep ourselves out of alot of mess.:)

Re: The "Abomination that Maketh Desolate"
 

Here is a fitting article on this topic.http://www.americanvision.org/blog/?p=190

Re: The "Abomination that Maketh Desolate"
 

I have always held to the belief that it is extremely dangerous to approach a particular scriptural matter, or phrase, as a "Schematist," that is to say, one who forms an opinion, or concludes a matter concerning a thing in a specific manner, and then seeks to make everything else that has been written concerning it to conform to their preconceived views, or beliefs.

For instance, should one embrace a belief in the flawed teachings about a "triune God," then that individual will attempt to make every passage of the Bible which refers to the Godhead in such a way that it lends support to their biased views, all the while failing to recognize the deficiency of their understanding. I fear that this is the manner in which many have attempted to interpret the words of our Lord as found recorded in Matthew 24.

Should one approach the specific issues raised by the questions which I have tendered here for discussion in such a manner (as some, such as ApostolicTexas and Brother Mike Blume have done), and in so doing have concluded that the things spoken about by Jesus have already taken place, and in like manner apply this same manner of interpreting the contents of the scriptures to the contents of Exodus 20, then it might also be concluded that the commandments listed there were applicable ONLY to those Israelites who were alive during that period wherein they were given.

Is it proper to conclude that because the LORD God used such words as "you," within the 10 commandments that we must conclude that such were applicable, or restricted, ONLY to those in attendance at the time they were uttered? Of course not! In fact, it is sheer folly and absurdity to even imagine that such were the case. If one followed this pattern of interpreting the contents of the scriptures, and go through the Bible eliminating all of the places wherein such words are found (based upon the flawed belief that in such instances the things referred to did not apply to this present generation), then that which would remain would become so confusing as to render it void and utterly useless.

Why do some fail to recognize the implications of the words of Romans 4:17, wherein we are told that because God is eternal, and therefore not restricted to the limitations of time as we mortal humans are, that He is able to "...calleth those things which be not as though they were"?

Why do some tenaciously embrace the flawed belief that simply because our Lord used words such as "you, ye, thee," etc., within the record of the response which He uttered in response to the inquiry of the chosen apostles regarding the specific "sign" (singular), that would be indicative of the immenincy of His "coming" and "the end of the age," that such things were to apply ONLY to them and the people who were living during their generation? If such a concludion were indeed true, then I would be inclined to question why it was even necessary that this matter be made an integral part of the Bible, for what relevancy would it bear upon we who are alive today?

IMHO every passage of the sacred Writ must be considered to be applicable to the people of every generation, else it is applicable to none! A strong statement, huh? Indeed! for if such were the case then mankind is in a much greater state of distress than one could even imagine.

Re: The "Abomination that Maketh Desolate"
 

I tend to agree with the above post...
However I am not a Bible teacher and much of this stuff seems so complicated to me. I have been so busy lately I haven´t had much time to post but I do think a lot along these lines...It is very serious and I do pray that God prepares us all for whatever might be ahead.

Re: The "Abomination that Maketh Desolate"
 

I am completely for the thought of ensuring we do not approach something with preconceived notions. And the issue I have with Matt 24 is not at all an outcropping of preconception. Neither is it a result of reading words like "YOU". You did not read my posts in order to say what you did here.

In fact, I believed full-blown futurism for many years until I noticed some timetexts in the Gospels concerning the words of judgment. Matt 16 ends speaking to disciples and saying they shall not taste death until they see the son of man coming in the clouds. That limits the issue to those people. Matthew 23 spoke to the people of that day, as the translations attest, when referring to that generation, and distinguished them from their ancestral fathers, letting us know he is specifying a particular people and in that context.

Matthew 24:34 KJV Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.

Jesus said all those events, not some of them, would occur in one generation. And the temple destruction that was included in the ALL THESE THINGS list.

Jesus carried His cross as the women wept for him, and he told them they should weep for themselves and their children since they would cry fro rocks and mountains to fall on them, and that is the sixth seal of Rev 6.

Over and over again TIMETEXTS were introduced into the discussions by Jesus. And that makes the issue entirely different than what you are proposing. One has to be unaware of those references in order to say the events were not to occur in their lifetimes only.

I agree! However, it is not just a matter of YOU, but rather TIMETEXTS that are involved int he discussions of Matt 24 and elsewhere. Unfortunately, tradition will now cause the reader of my post to twist the timetext statements and carry them away into rather unreasonable extents, since that is the real culprit we are dealing with in the differences of beliefs here. Not the pronouns YOU etc.

Re: The "Abomination that Maketh Desolate"
 

Isaiah 66:3 "He that killeth an ox is as if he slew a man; he that sacrificeth a lamb, as if he cut off a dog's neck; he that offereth an oblation, as if he offered swine's blood; he that burneth incense, as if he blessed an idol. Yea, they have chosen their own ways, and their soul delighteth in their abominations."

Seems to me (for 30+ years now) that the continuation of offering sacrifices after the crucifixion was the abomination that made Jerusalem desolate.

It is also interesting to note that nearly all students of prophecy neglect to compare Matthew 24, Luke 21, Mark 13 to their listening audience and note they are OUT OF SEQUENCE proving they are NOT written in chronological order.

Jesus was simply answering 3 questions.
1. When shall these things be?
2. What shall be the sign of thy coming?
3. What shall be the sign of the end of the world?

The sign of his coming and the end of the world (cosmos: present system) is the same sign e.g. the destruction of the Temple.

Matthew 24:2 "And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down."

Matthew 24:3 "And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?"

Mark 13:4 "Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign when all these things shall be fulfilled?"

Luke 21:7 "And they asked him, saying, Master, but when shall these things be? and what sign will there be when these things shall come to pass?"

The disciples asked Jesus 3 questions, the entire discourse are the answers to these 3 questions.

How they were skewed to mean some time 2000 years later is beyond sound reasoning.

That they wanted to know and Jesus said for THEM to take heed should tell the reader WHO is the intended listeners.

Jesus summed it up in Luke 21

Luke 21:22 "For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled."

That the prophets did not make all prophecies to Israel, Nor to Judah has messed up the study of prophecy because nearly all "Prophecy Teachers" lump all prophecies together as though the tribes were never divided.

There were prophecies to The Northern Tribes of Israel and specific prophecies to Judah, neither of which were to be fulfilled in the other.

paying simple attention to these glaring details makes reading the bible a new and different book to those who are interested in rightly dividing the word when studying the subject of prophecy.

Ron.

Re: The "Abomination that Maketh Desolate"
 

Bro. Harvey,

In your opinion, how would my post#11 differ from this one.

Blessings,

Falla39

Re: The "Abomination that Maketh Desolate"
 

While, M. Blume does a good job on this subject, I also recommend a book by John L. Bray called "Matthew 24, Fulfilled" one of the most authoritative on the subject. It is however now out of printed, but is soon to be reprinted, you might find one on the internet.

Re: The "Abomination that Maketh Desolate"
 

While intending no disrespect whatsoever because of the publication of this statement, I feel compelled to state that I am greatly grieved every time I witness such being stated by a proponent of Oneness Apostolic Pentecostalism. And this is based upon my understanding of the following significant passages of scripture:

"...Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it; that he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word. That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish." (Ephesians 5:25-27)

"Finally, brethren, farewell. Be perfect, be of good comfort, be of one mind, live in peace; and the God of love and peace shall be with you." (II Corinthians 13:11)

"Can two walk together, except they be agreed?" (Amos 3:3)

"Every kingdom divided against itself is brought to desolation; and a house divided against a house falleth." (Luke 11:17)

I ask - should we conclude from statements such as these that it is permissable for God's chosen people to embrace beliefs concerning a particular matter which stand in opposition to another, or contradicts the sound principles found contained in His written word?

Would you be willing to drink a glass of water taken from a well in which someone had emptied a container of raw sewage, although the presence of such corruption might not be detectable either by smell or taste? I think not, albeit anyone might partake of such water while yet ignorant of the presence of such contaminants?

As for me I simply refuse to "go along with the crowd" with regards to that which the majority has accepted and embrace as truth concerning any matter, unless, of course, such beliefs can be unquestionably authenticated by a multiplicity of sound biblical passages pertaining to that particular matter. Following more than 48 years of being deceived through the subtle tactics of false teachers while a member of the "mainline professing Christian community," I have learned to prayerfully, and carefully examine the words of others before allowing the things which they assert as truth to become an integral element of my fundamental beliefs.

Just some thoughts about this matter that I have felt led to express. While, as stated, I mean no disrespect to Sis. Falla for her statement regarding this matter, I stand adamantly opposed to embracing such a position when it comes to anything pertaining to the sound principles of God's written word. In essence, we MUST all speak the SAME thing, and this so that there will be NO divisions among God's chosen people, His church. Only by adhering to this can we truly become the UNIFIED body which He intends for His bride to be!

Regards,
Lafon

Re: The "Abomination that Maketh Desolate"
 

Yes, but the Holy Spirit will eventually straighten her out. Or you. I guess. :tease

Re: The "Abomination that Maketh Desolate"
 

Timmy, I certainly hope so!

Re: The "Abomination that Maketh Desolate"
 

Best post of the day!!!! Amen!

Re: The "Abomination that Maketh Desolate"
 

You imply a very circular argument, Lafon. You say we must be in agreement and imply that you are right because you are right, since you offered no proof of Fall's error.

Re: The "Abomination that Maketh Desolate"
 

Where is it found in the scriptures that disparity of beliefs concerning any matter is acceptable with God? Quite to the contrary, for many passages could be noted wherein we are warned (and in some rather strong terms too) to be of the SAME mindset (of one accord) regarding all things.

I did not address Sis Falla's arguments regarding any matter, simply (and only) the statement which she made that inferred that it is permissible for God's chosen people to embrace differing opinions/views concerning a matter. I refute such an assertion/suggestion, and most especially when it is made by a fellow member of the kingdom of God!

Re: The "Abomination that Maketh Desolate"
 

Second best post of the day! :toofunny

That was my point, exactly, of course, except that it applies to both sides of this and all other contentious issues. Both sides may think they have solid proof (well, other than Falla's teachable attitude, which is admirable), but neither one does. The Bible will always be ambiguous, allowing anyone to justify their favorite interpretations, even where the doctrines are very important. Lafon's dream of unity will never be realized.

Re: The "Abomination that Maketh Desolate"
 

So you disagree about disagreeing. :thumbsup

Re: The "Abomination that Maketh Desolate"
 

I never said disparity of belief was acceptable to God. But God does have patience and gives us time to lead us into all truth. But your view of all the verses that teach we need to agree are coupled with your assumption you are right.

Re: The "Abomination that Maketh Desolate"
 

Here is your point:

Acts 15:39 "And the contention was so sharp between them, that they departed asunder one from the other: and so Barnabas took Mark, and sailed unto Cyprus;"

I suppose Paul and Barnabas were lost for many years after this.

Proverbs 18:19 "A brother offended is harder to be won than a strong city: and their contentions are like the bars of a castle."

But, just because it doesn't SAY it, does not imply it is not so...

1 Thessalonians 2:2 "But even after that we had suffered before, and were shamefully entreated, as ye know, at Philippi, we were bold in our God to speak unto you the gospel of God with much contention."

Here, God approves it.

Paul tells us to avoid them when they are FOOLISH...

Titus 3:9 "But avoid foolish questions, and genealogies, and contentions, and strivings about the law; for they are unprofitable and vain"

Paul went nose to nose with Peter...

Galatians 2:11 "But when Peter was come to Antioch, I withstood him to the face, because he was to be blamed."

Doctrinally Peter's conduct was plainly wrong and was swaying others to mimic his actions, so Paul rebuked Peter is front of everyone.

Paul teaches such...

1 Timothy 5:20 "Them that sin rebuke before all, that others also may fear."

2 Timothy 4:2 "Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine."

It is ok to disagree, just to agree to disagree is not wrong. To disagree disagreeably is where it is wrong.

Ron

P.s. You must agree 100% with this post or you cannot come to my Birth Day party this year :dance

Re: The "Abomination that Maketh Desolate"
 

By and large; where do YOU believe the difference is?

And please, call me; Hey You! :highfive

All my friends do! :chat

Ron

Re: The "Abomination that Maketh Desolate"
 

Bro. Lafon,

What I really meant to say was, "While we may disagree, let's agree to not
be disagreeable". Can we not disagree without having a bad or disagreeable
spirit! I can love and still disagree and respect your right or priviledge to dis-
agree. Hopefully that explains my thoughts on this.

It is very hard to listen and dialogue with someone who presents their position
in a harsh or unkind manner. I am certainly not speaking of compromise either!
Not to say anyone has done this. Just making a statement of fact!

Blessings,

Falla39

Re: The "Abomination that Maketh Desolate"
 

LOL!! I guess I was wondering if we were not basically saying
the same thing?:friend

Blessings,

Falla39

Re: The "Abomination that Maketh Desolate"
 

Ps. 133:1,2,3;
Behold, how good and how pleasant it is for brethren to dwell together in unity!
It is like the precious ointment upon the head, that ran down upon the beard, even
Aaron's beard: that went down to the skirts of his garments;
As the dew of Hermon, and as the dew that descended upon the mountains of Zion:
for there the LORD commanded the blessing, even life forevermore.

Eph. 4:1-3;
I,Therefore, the prisoner of the Lord, beseech you that you walk worthy
of the vocation wherewith ye are called,
With all lowliness and meekness, with longsuffering, forbearing one another
in love;
Endeavoring to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace.

Vs.13, Till we ALL come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the
Son of God. unto a perfect (mature,full grown)man, unto the measure of the
stature of the fulness of Christ:

Blessings to all the precious brothers and sisters on this forum, in Jesus Name!

Falla39