Acts 10: The Smoking Gun?
 

Some believe we must imitate, emulate, re-enact the death, burial, resurretion of Jesus Christ by obeying the Gospel as stated by Peter in Acts 2:38 to be fully saved and born again.

They also believe that John 3:3 teaches the that being born of the water and spirit ... being born again is fully complete by a properly administered water baptism and speaking in other tongues as evidence of receiving the Holy Ghost.

Water baptism is perceived as being part of a recipe ... part of the BORN AGAIN MIX. Furthermore, water baptism is compared by them to only being buried w/ Christ.

The issue I'd like to address is whether or not this "burial" indeed partially regenerates us ... and is efficacious in quickening us by His Spirit into new birth, albeit partial.

It is my belief that Acts 10 still is the smoking gun ... against 3 step theology. If baptism is a burial of the dead man ... necessary to rid the man of the body of sin and wipe his sin stain ... then how could the Spirit of God quicken unto righteousness and life that which is still dead?

Does the indwelling of the Holy Ghost ["resurrrection"} represent the final piece of the 3 step puzzle that must be re-enacted that raises us into new life? ... does His Spirit do this while not setting us free of the law of sin and death or putting to death the deeds/sins of the body? (Romans 8:13)

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Please read Acts 8: 1-14 for this discussion.
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1. In Acts 10, we find those in the house of Cornelius showing evidence of being indwelt w/ the Holy Spirit yet had not, as some teach, been buried their body of sin ... or carnal man. Some would even say because they had not been baptized they are not yet declared righteous/justified and/or their slate not wiped clean through a properly administered baptism that would effectuate sin remission.

Furthermore, those w/ this sacramental mindset [a rite that mediates grace] are the first to say that unless one does not have the Spirit of Christ they are not His as it applies to speaking in tongues ... yet we see Cornelius being declared His, prior to water baptism.
(Romans 8:9)

We see the the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus setting him free from the law of sin and of death prior to re-enacting a burial of the body of sin???? (Romans 8:2)

2. Also we see that he is declared righteous before God and he is alive because of Christ's imputed righteousness ... by the Spirit indwelling. ....

Romans 8:10 - If Christ is in you, though the body is dead because of sin, yet the spirit is alive because of righteousness.

3. Finally, if re-enactment theology is God-ordained ... repentance is death, baptism is burial and receiving the baptism of the Holy Spirit is the resurrection ...

Then how can Cornelius through his being filled w/ the Holy Ghost have circumvented this process?
It is the initial indwelling of the Spirit of God that puts to DEATH THE DEEDS OF THE BODY SO THAT WE MAY BE QUICKENED TO LIFE, or Destroys the body of sin (Romans 6:6) ...

Romans 13 .... for if you are living according to the flesh, you must die; but if by the Spirit you are putting to death the deeds of the body, you will live.
These gaping holes in their theology show that one, namely Cornelius and those in his house, can be declared righteous, quickened unto life, put to death the deeds of the body, be declared His, set free from the law of sin and death .... not condemened in Christ Jesus ... PRIOR TO BEING FULLY SAVED ... REGENERATED ...OR COMPLETING THE NEW BIRTH PROCESS.

Cornelius was declared a son of God ... born of God ... prior to baptism. With all the priveleges ... full access to our Father and the inheritance of new life.

Romans 8
14For all who are being led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God.
15For you have not received a spirit of slavery leading to fear again, but you have received a spirit of adoption as sons by which we cry out, "Abba! Father!"
16The Spirit Himself testifies with our spirit that we are children of God,
17and if children, heirs also, heirs of God and fellow heirs with Christ, if indeed we suffer with Him so that we may also be glorified with Him.

All this before being BURIED INTO CHRIST and having the blood applied in his life???

Please reconcile Romans 8 and other scripture pointing to being born again/born of God BY HIS SPIRIT before completing the proported Born Again recipe.

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Re: Acts 10: THe Smoking Gun?
 

1 John tells us that we he dwells in us at the point of faith ...


12(AG)No one has seen God at any time; if we love one another, God abides in us, and His (AH)love is perfected in us.
13(AI)By this we know that we abide in Him and He in us, because He has given us of His Spirit.
14We have seen and (AJ)testify that the Father has (AK)sent the Son to be the Savior of the world. 15(AL)Whoever confesses that (AM)Jesus is the Son of God, God (AN)abides in him, and he in God.

Re: Acts 10: THe Smoking Gun?
 

Most threesteppers are content to say they don't know why it happens in the wrong order.

But you are right, if only baptism is efficacious in remission of sins, there is a real problem with the Holy Spirit impartation to the unregenerate.

Re: Acts 10: THe Smoking Gun?
 

As Adino stated in the Sinful Union thread ... there is a dilemma they cannot answer ...

Truth is truth in all contexts.

The type of thinking you described is what Trinitarians say about the mystery of the Holy Trinity.

Re: Acts 10: The Smoking Gun?
 

what a sad, sad thread.

Re: Acts 10: The Smoking Gun?
 

I agree., FERD.

Re: Acts 10: The Smoking Gun?
 

Please offer your analytical response after you express your feelings.

Re: Acts 10: The Smoking Gun?
 

They dont seem to realize the weak point of their own doctrine. If I were them I would be wondering about the smoking gun of Mark 16:16.

He that believes AND is baptized shall be saved but he that believes not shall be damned.

Their view is "he that is saved shall be baptized".

Re: Acts 10: The Smoking Gun?
 

If it was good enough for the Disciples of Christ and His family it's good enough for me...

I don't doubt any of the Word...I will just do my best to follow it... according to the Scripture given...

The Question was asked.."What shall we do"?

and the answer...
Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the LORD our God shall call.

Pretty Clear as far as I can see...

Dan..

Re: Acts 10: The Smoking Gun?
 

Will anyone address the point in the original thread instead of resortng to emotionalism or reiterating their platform?

Re: Acts 10: The Smoking Gun?
 

You don't like them tearing a page from your playbook?


lol

Re: Acts 10: The Smoking Gun?
 

No.

Re: Acts 10: The Smoking Gun?
 

How is Mark 16:16 weak? He came unto his own (Jews)...... He is telling them that they do not need the sacrificial system any longer. They do not need a priest, a temple, a sacrifice. He is the sacrifice. That is what Mark 16:16 is about.

Believe the Good News. The New Covenant they did not see in the OT was here.

Re: Acts 10: The Smoking Gun?
 

:tissue

Re: Acts 10: The Smoking Gun?
 

Mark 16 is not weak. The believe only side cannot get around it. Acts 2:38 mentions faith, baptism, and Holy Spirit baptism.

They want us to feel confused over Acts 10. When I believed like them I felt confused about Mark 16 AND Acts 2:38 when reading them.

Re: Acts 10: The Smoking Gun?
 

No one wants to play Dan :toofunny

I think we know what we believe, we know what we'll preach and we know you're not changing your mind for anyone.

(we also know this merry-go-round makes us dizzy. :vomit

Re: Acts 10: The Smoking Gun?
 

:chirp :chirp

Re: Acts 10: The Smoking Gun?
 

Smoking gun??????????????

Blah to that. What was the end result of Acts 10? Looks like your smoking gun took a "third step".

So Daniel, Peter asked a question. "Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?"

Well can ya?

Re: Acts 10: The Smoking Gun?
 

Maybe you need the rest of the story......

If belief and Holy Ghost baptism were all that is required why would Peter command Old Corn and company to get dunked. It is obvious that in both Acts 2 and 10 the baptism commanded is water baptism, because in 2 it was said that if you repented and were baptized you would receive the Holy Ghost and in 10 they had already been "baptized" in the Spirit and were commanded to be baptized in water. And didn't Corn want to hear the commandments of God that were given to Peter?
[All the above was thought out and typed with little if any emotion] :ursofunny

Re: Acts 10: The Smoking Gun?
 

Are you saying that it's confusing to you now or was?

Mark isn't confusing to me in relation to Acts 10 and Acts 2:38 because I understand that Jesus is showing them they do not need someone else to bring a sacrifice to Him for their sins. The Priest does not any longer need to go to the Laver for them. They can now come themselves.

If we are questioning the infilling of His Spirit as opposed to just saying you are saved by baptism, that is not going to wash in light of Acts 18:24-26:

Acts 18:24, "And a certain Jew named Apollos, born at Alexandria, an eloquent man, and mighty in the scriptures, came to Ephesus. (25) This man was instructed in the way of the Lord; and being fervent in the spirit, he spake and taught diligently the things of the Lord, knowing only the baptism of John. (26)And he began to speak boldly in the synagogue: whom when Aquila and Priscilla had heard, they took him unto them, and expounded unto him the way of God more perfectly."

Re: Acts 10: The Smoking Gun?
 

Gentlemen,

No one denies that a regenerated person possessing genuine faith will be baptism early in his/her conversion ...

I can read further as can everyone else. However, you are yet to reconcile Romans 8 w/ Acts 10. Cornelius was filled w/ the Holy Spirit ... in your paradigm when he spoke in tongues ... and so if filled then Romans 8 tells us that he was born of God ...These gaping holes in their theology show that one, namely Cornelius and those in his house, can be declared righteous, quickened unto life, put to death the deeds of the body, be declared His, set free from the law of sin and death .... not condemened in Christ Jesus ... a son of God PRIOR TO BEING FULLY SAVED ... REGENERATED ...OR COMPLETING THE NEW BIRTH PROCESS according to your recipe.

Do you deny he had to Spirit of Christ prior to water baptism?

In your linear view of course he took a third step and many more after ...but we speak of regeneration ...

Re: Acts 10: The Smoking Gun?
 

Daniel,
If Cornelius was complete then why go on to verse 10:47? I believe it has to do with the vessel.

Re: Acts 10: The Smoking Gun?
 

Why do we go to other commandments Christ commanded PO ... to be regenerated?.

Believers are baptized, no doubt ... and they love their neighbor.

However, will anyone address the issue in which Paul clearly states what happens in the believer when they have the Spirit of Christ.

How do you explain the gaping holes in re-enactment theology when namely Cornelius and those in his house, are declared righteous, quickened unto life, put to death the deeds of the body (which btw, is claimed only to happen at water baptism), be declared His, set free from the law of sin and death .... not condemened in Christ Jesus ... a child of God w/ full access to the Father and eternal inheritance PRIOR TO BEING FULLY SAVED ... REGENERATED ...OR COMPLETING THE NEW BIRTH PROCESS?

Re: Acts 10: The Smoking Gun?
 

What was the "way of God more perfectly" that Priscilla and Aquila showed Apollos? He, obviously, had baptism down.

Re: Acts 10: The Smoking Gun?
 

1. It does not say to be saved.
2. His baptism was not in a confession of faith to the Work of the Lamb, Jesus Christ. His baptism had been unto John until this point.

3. Does know the way of the Lord more perfectly when it comes to stewardship regenerates us?

Please address my questions and original thread.

Re: Acts 10: THe Smoking Gun?
 

That baptism is not efficacious to remit sins that does not make the argument that water baptism is not necessary for salvation.

I have to run but I hope later I can find an article by Daniel Segraves on col 2 as part of this discussion

Re: Acts 10: The Smoking Gun?
 

Note To self: I'm still waiting on the pat answer that the epistles are written to the saved.

Re: Acts 10: The Smoking Gun?
 

what would be the point DA, you would simply point out how heritical I am.


Sorry bro. i'm just not up for that today.

Re: Acts 10: The Smoking Gun?
 

So we'll duel in the political arena ... hold on ... let my grab my sword.

Re: Acts 10: The Smoking Gun?
 

:kickcan.................:kickcan................. ...................................:kickcan

Re: Acts 10: The Smoking Gun?
 

I can't address your question because you are not taking the whole work together. You're isolating some scriptures, especially in Romans when Romans 1:7 says he is talking to the saints. Already saved people.

I can't wrap my head around what you are saying. It feels empty in my spirit.

Re: Acts 10: The Smoking Gun?
 

Well, then perhaps you can dwell on it at another time ... I encourage you to read Acts 10, Romans 8 and 1 John ... and perhaps we can discuss when you are able .... I'll be here tomorrow if the lynch mob doesn't get to me first.

Re: Acts 10: The Smoking Gun?
 

Okay, I promise I will. I keep getting up and down, logging in and out. I'm not in a study frame of mind. I'll look at it closer later when I have more time.

Re: Acts 10: The Smoking Gun?
 

Its much more suiting. though, I dont know it will acutally be a dual. we arent that far apart in that area.

even if we find ourselves voting in different directions.

here...well.... lol.

Re: Acts 10: The Smoking Gun?
 

Coop, I like your avatar.

Re: Acts 10: The Smoking Gun?
 

Dan: you know no one will explain what you arer asking. The three step theology, the blood only applied when one is baptized, is much like the trinity...it's a mystery...you can not fully explain it in light of other scriptures...you just have to accept that we said it is so, and that makes it so.

Re: Acts 10: The Smoking Gun?
 

That's below the belt... :bored

Re: Acts 10: The Smoking Gun?
 

Sorry..by all means then Mrs LPW answer Dans question, don't just give a diversionary answer like lieing politicians do, to avoid the real qeustion.

Re: Acts 10: The Smoking Gun?
 

I've discussed it w/ him in the past.

Don't really care much for the above inference though Brother.

Re: Acts 10: The Smoking Gun?
 

Really? It is much the same with us OP's. When we get a questuion we can't back up with sound scriptural references we dart off in another direction, the same way politicaticians do when asked a question they don't want to answer.

It's an art form...dunk and evade then replace the question with another question. :kickcan