A tremendous, awesome what?
 

This was posted by someone as the first post in another thread and was clearly meant as a testimony or praise report:

"We had a tremendous, awesome move of God in our service yesterday! The annointing and presence of God was so incredibly strong. . .people were running, shouting, jumping, getting slain. . .people that needed victory claimed it and received it, backsliders were finding their way back to an altar of prayer. . it was just AWESOME!! I know God is a prayer answering God and He meets the needs of His people, but I still get amazed when He stops by right when we need Him the most and just takes over! I had a very special need and God completely ministered to it and me yesterday. I feel so exhilerated!!!

Anyone else have great services yesterday? Any praise reports you'd like to share?"

The joy being expressed is abundantly clear and I don't want to take that away from the person who expressed it in the above-quoted post. But there are several things in the post that raise some serious red flags!

"We had a tremendous, awesome move of God in our service yesterday!" So, what was Jesus doing yesterday that He wasn't doing all the other times He's been present (which is every time even two or three gather together in His name)? This notion of an "awesome move of God" appears to be suggesting something that is out of the ordinary and I find the notion of that disturbing because God's presence among His people is not (or shouldn't be) out of the ordinary. Further, if Jesus is present whenever even two or three are gathered together in His name (as He said He would), then what is God doing - or not doing - when He isn't moving awesomely?

"The annointing and presence of God was so incredibly strong" Are there times when it is weak?

"people were running, shouting, jumping, getting slain" Not that these are PROOF of God's annointing and presence - especially since God dwells in every Christian and, thus, does not cease to be present.

"people that needed victory claimed it and received it, backsliders were finding their way back to an altar of prayer" Isn't this what's supposed to be happening all the time? What is wrong in the Church today that we consider such things to be out of the ordinary?

"it was just AWESOME!!" Characterized by awe? Characterized by (reverential) fear? I sincerely doubt it since there was all that running, shouting, jumping, etc. going on. Now Isaiah knew what awesome was (see Isaiah 6)!

"I know God is a prayer answering God and He meets the needs of His people" Absolutely!

"but I still get amazed when He stops by right when we need Him the most and just takes over!" Stops right by? We make it sound as if God is not continually present within His people, as if God just drops in for a visit every once in a while when we "need Him" (as if to say there are times when we don't need Him. As for all that "running, shouting, jumping, getting slain," something sure took over but it wasn't God.

"I had a very special need and God completely ministered to it and me yesterday." Praise God! It's too bad we make it seem as if it's all about us and that God is there for us instead of us being there for Him - as if our needs are "very special" and the needs of others aren't.

"I feel so exhilerated!!!" That's nice but God's work in the life He has given me isn't dependent how I feel.

Chan, are the services you go to always red hot? Or are they sometimes dull?

Somehow I knew you were going to go after that post. :)

But... I have to agree... we have become such an emotion, chills, thrills, tingles & jingles based people.

We define the presence of God by these outward sights and, thereby, devalue the continual presence of God by even referring to some services (where the necessary requirement of 2 or 3 gathering together is met) as dull, dead or other such terminology.

My, my, my, my, my...

My Lord & God please forgive me for the times in the past that I have been in gatherings where you were, per your promise, in our midst and I deemed it dead because it did not line up to what I had earlier deemed as awesome and powerful. Help me to understand more completely your constant infilling and presence among your people when they are joined together in your name.

What's wrong with thrills and chills?

Some members here are not of the opinion that running aisles, dancing, or shouting is proper in a church service.

:nah

My mention was about when we BASE our judgements on whether a gathering of Gods people was "good" or not on these things.

Ok, fair enough.

I think though that we base our judgements on these sorts of things because it's what we can SEE. Since we are human, we can't see what's happening in the spiritual world, and therefore don't know it's happening a lot of times. These sorts of outward visual signs during services help us to see what actually is happening, and therefore it's exciting and encouraging.

Indeed... which may be why the word informs us that faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

That's exactly part of the problem I'm referring to. We judge God by our emotional responses - as if to say God was not moving (or even present) with us if we didn't happen to have a certain level of emotional frenzy.

Nothing, as long as we're not using them as the measure by which we judge God and whether or not HE was present, moving, etc. Of course, Paul did command that everything must be done decently and in order.

That's rather subjective, don't you think?

'Decently and in order' according to the Catholics is much different than how the Baptists define it.

Yes, and that was my whole point: we try to define God's presence, God's working, etc. and even judge God by whether or not we were worked up into an emotional frenzy. I think that if we REALLY experienced the presence of God - the way Isaiah did in Isaiah 6 - our response would be nothing like we see in so many Pentecostal (and similar) churches.

Decently and in order as Paul said it. That's the only standard.

And that the heart (the seat of emotions) is deceitful above all things and desperately wicked.

Yes sir... another pertinent scripture.

Paul said it, but didn't define it. Big difference.

The definition is in the Greek words he used.

And those define what he meant by 'decently and in order'? How so?

Decently is defined as:

in a seemly manner, decently

Hmmm.....not really sure what Paul meant by that, do you?

In order is defined as:

1. an arranging, arrangement
2. order
1. a fixed succession observing a fixed time
3. due or right order, orderly condition
4. the post, rank, or position which one holds in civic or other affairs
1. since this position generally depends on one's talents, experience, resources
1. character, fashion, quality, style

Wow!! Which definition did Paul mean when he said 'in order'? Do you know? Are you sure?

Paul was refering to the operation of the gifts of the Spirit and prophets speaking out of turn etc etc....otherwise what is decent and orderly as far as a praise portion of a service is as you said subjective.

Chan, as often as I disagree with you, I must say I wholeheartedly agree with you on this post. Good post. Do I have permission to shorten your name now?:happydance

Why does everyone's experiencing the presence of God have to only be like Isaiah's experience? Also how is saying "we had a powerful move of God's Spirit" judging God?

Did those that were healed by Jesus experience a powerful move of God's Spirit? Perhaps this is really all subjective based on what definition one uses of the term "move of God".

One the other hand, I do admit some folks wrongly mistake feel good emotion as a move of God. On the other hand being quite emotional could be the result of a powerful move of God.

How can one NOT be emotional in the presence of God...How can one not be emotional unless you are dead or schizophrenic or some other mental disorder?

Chan,

I respect your point of view and your knowledge of God's word and your desire for a true purity of heart in serving God, but I don't know why you felt the need to destroy this testimony of God's blessing. I get emotional almost everytime I pray when I'm alone with the Lord. Is there something wrong with that?

You have to admit there are times when the presence of God is almost tangible and when it isn't we still should praise Him by faith trusting and knowing his word is true that where two or three are gathered together...

But I can't understand why you would belittle someone's testimony, no matter how they word it....they are glorifying God.

Ps 50:23 Whoso offereth praise glorifieth me:

Notice what I said earlier: "The joy being expressed is abundantly clear and I don't want to take that away from the person who expressed it..."

No, I don't have to admit that there are mere "times" when the presence of God is almost tangible. Note what I said in the original post: "So, what was Jesus doing yesterday that He wasn't doing all the other times He's been present (which is every time even two or three gather together in His name)? This notion of an "awesome move of God" appears to be suggesting something that is out of the ordinary and I find the notion of that disturbing because God's presence among His people is not (or shouldn't be) out of the ordinary. Further, if Jesus is present whenever even two or three are gathered together in His name (as He said He would), then what is God doing - or not doing - when He isn't moving awesomely?"

Again, as I said in the original post: "The joy being expressed is abundantly clear and I don't want to take that away from the person who expressed it..." There is no belittling here.

Now go back and actually read what I posted instead of reading INTO it an attack on someone's testimony!

Take a close look at the times in scripture when people found themselves in the presence of God in a seemingly tangible way. What was their response? It was always one of true worship, i.e. humbling and prostrating oneself before God, and not exuberance. There's a place for exuberance but to use that exuberance as the standard by which we "measure" or otherwise determine whether God "moved" among His people is judging God by human behavior. We in Pentecostal circles have no sense of reverential fear before God.

The problem, though, is what is being suggested: that God sort of randomly chooses to be present or not present among His people (this notion of God just "stopping by" like dropping in on a neighbor or relative) or that unless we're whipped up into some sort of emotional frenzy GOD wasn't present or "moving" among His people. God is CONTINUOUSLY present among His people and IN each one of us.

That's exactly the point and it's not just some people, it's fairly common in Pentecostal circles.

Are there "moves" of God that aren't powerful?

Note Isaiah's emotions when he found himself in the presence of God:

"Then I said, 'Woe is me, for I am ruined! Because I am a man of unclean lips, And I live among a people of unclean lips; For my eyes have seen the King, the LORD of hosts.'"

Note John's reaction when he found himself in the presence of the glorified Christ:

"When I saw Him, I fell at His feet like a dead man And He placed His right hand on me, saying, 'Do not be afraid; I am the first and the last,
and the living One; and I was dead, and behold, I am alive forevermore, and I have the keys of death and of Hades."

I don't believe that really being in the presence of God while we're in our present mortal state is going to bring about exuberance. We Pentecostals have no sense of the fear of God.

Exuberant praise is biblical but to call our praise a move of God maked God out to be as variable as our emotions.

Wait....they were STILL emotional. Sometimes the presence of God brings somber moods and sometimes it brings rejoicing. The Israelites rejoiced when the ark of the covenant came into the camp. David danced with all his might. Those people back then did not experience what we experienced..

And what is meant by exuberance? Is it rejoicing?
Lev 23:40 And ye shall take you on the first day the boughs of goodly trees, branches of palm trees, and the boughs of thick trees, and willows of the brook; and ye shall rejoice before the LORD your God seven days.

In the OT they were fearful because of their sinfulness (see Isaiah). But in the NT we are redeemed! Why isn't rejoicing worship? What makes you think that the only way to worship Him is to grovel on your face?

Act 8:39 And when they had come up out of the water, the Spirit of the Lord caught Philip away, so that the eunuch saw him no more. And he went on his way rejoicing.

When Pentecost came there is no indication they all fell on theiir faces. They were sitting and then speaking in tongues.

Act 13:52 And the disciples were filled with joy and with the Holy Spirit.

1Pe 1:8 Whom having not seen, ye love; in whom, though now ye see him not, yet believing, ye rejoice with joy unspeakable and full of glory:

What criteria are you using for "being in the presence of God" anyways?

Was Samuel in the presence of God when he heard a voice call his name?

Who said anything about this being a standard? It may or may not be a reaction to the presence of God and a part of worship. Rejoicing in God is a part of worship. Rejoicing at what He is doing is a part of Worship. And please speak for yourself and not include me. I DO have a sense of the reverential fear before God and I do see it happening quite often. In fact I saw an entire campmeeting just this last time come to a screeching halt as the visible presence of His Spirit descended on that meeting. All anyone could do was weep and silently glorify Him. Some fell on their faces. Others just magnified Him. I would have fell on my face as well but I would have broke my front teeth on the chair in front of me.

Reverence is not being afraid. It's extreme respect. People often mistake what it means to "fear" the Lord to mean being afraid of Him....not Love.

1Jn 4:18 There is no fear in love; but perfect love casteth out fear: because fear hath torment. He that feareth is not made perfect in love.

Not at all! First of all that is merely your unfounded opinion that it's random. Did God just randomly visit Abraham one day? Or was it a chosen day!? I disagree with you strongly. There are seasons and times He puts in His own hand. It may be to His own design. On the other hand it may be not that the presence of God came on one particular day, but that it was felt more strongly on one particular day. How that works exactly nobody knows. We are using anthropomorphisms here to describe one service where we feel the presence of God more acutely than at others.

Maybe it's just that we were in more unity. Maybe it's that faith was stronger. Maybe it was in response to strong prayers. God chose the Day of Pentecost to pour out the Spirit....was that random or by design?

I get really really tired of the "whipped up into an emotional frenzy" quip from anti-Pentecostals. It's bad enough I have to hear it from those without faith or those that doubt God still visits His people in a profound way.

It's a shame I have to hear it from those that claim to be Spirit filled.

Davids wife was of that sort. She disdained David for his being whipped up into an emotional frenzy. Usually when I hear that it's by someone trying to resort to mockery.

That's exactly the point and it's not just some people, it's fairly common in

Why can't there be moves of God that are MORE powerful to us than others?

Hey...I'd do that too if I did not believe I was already covered by the blood of the lamb and NOT be told that
Heb 10:19 Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus,

Col 1:26 Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints:

Those guys only heard of what would come. We experience it. They looked forward to it. We have it! They didn't have that boldness. They had a fearfulness and in Isaiah's case he was clearly worried that God would strike him down like a dog for his sins. We do not have that fear. We have confidence. If anyone lacks that confidence themselves it should not be reflective on everyone

1Jn 3:20 that if our conscience condemns us, that God is greater than our conscience and knows all things.
1Jn 3:21 Dear friends, if our conscience does not condemn us, we have confidence in the presence of God,

I have seen the presence of God in a wonderful way but in DIFFERENT operations. Sometimes it brought great rejoicing and others it brought great introspectiveness and re commitment and other times it just brought profound reverence with the face in the floor kind of groveling

Note Davids reaction. Note Israels Reaction. It's NOT always going to be the same. In the OT they often viewed God in terms of "the terror of the Lord"...In the NT we are told "fear not little flock, for it is your Father's GOOD pleasure to give you the kingdom".

Two things...when John fell was that HIS reaction? Because he does not say "I prostrated myself" he says he fell as a dead man. I've fallen as a dead man before, but the doubter tell me that sort of happening is NOT in the word of God. I did not prostrate myself. I simple fell over like I had just died and had no life in me. It was not me humbling myself. What happened in this case?

Anyways what was Jesus's reaction here? He told him NOT to be afraid.
Dan 8:17 So he came near where I stood: and when he came, I was afraid, and fell upon my face: but he said unto me, Understand, O son of man: for at the time of the end shall be the vision.

This even happened in the presence of an angel. Was it worship or was it fearfulness? And are we talking about actually seeing something that might bring fear like seeing a resurrected Jesus in All his glory, something John did not see before? This is hardly to be compared to having the Spirit of God come into a meeting is it? Sure, maybe if Jesus suddenly appeared to me here in my bedroom out of the blue in all his Glory I'd drop dead too.

How about Annanias? He has a casual conversation with the Lord...not falling dead there Acts 9.

Im sorry to hear that. I DO believe having God's presence in our midst...His Spirit DOES indeed bring rejoicing. It also brings other things such as reverence, introspection, healing, boldness.....It's amazing what happens when the Spirit of the Lord moves in a meeting

What? Who said "our praise is a move of God"? That's asinine! What they are saying is there is much rejoicing and praise in RESPONSE to what God is doing.

You seem to be responding to something I never said, i.e. that there must be no emotion. Yes, they expressed emotion but the emotion resulting from experiencing the presence of God is not the same as the emotion of praise.
Exuberance is "joyously unrestrained and enthusiastic." The passage you quoted has nothing whatsoever to do with actually being in the presence of God. Let's use the temple as a type. Praise is what goes on in the outer courts, worship (humbling and prostrating oneself before God) is what goes on in the holy of holies.
So, are you sinless? Just because you are redeemed doesn't make you morally perfect. You still have the sin nature within you (even if you're no longer a slave to it). Rejoicing is praise, not worship. You MUST use such terms as praise and worship as the BIBLE uses them and not according to man-made tradition.
Yes, so the eunuch was praising God. What's your point?
So what? Acts 2 isn't about worship.
So what? You again seem to be responding to something I never said and I really do expect better of you (certain others here are really incapable of distinguishing between what people actually say and what these others think is being inferred, implied, etc. but it isn't like you to do that).
Yes, so what?
Jesus' saying that where two or three are gathered together in His name that He is there in the midst and the various scriptures that say the Holy Ghost dwells in us.
No.
It is being applied as a standard. God is being judged by man's emotional responses every time one uses man's emotional responses as the basis for claiming things along the lines of "Oh, God really moved today!" Rejoicing is part of praise, not worship.THIS is not the same kind of thing as what was described in the original post. THIS is more along the lines of worship.
Well, there really is a certain amount of fear (being afraid, terror) in the extreme awe and reverence we're to have toward God. Remember that Jesus said to fear Him who was able to cast the soul into hell. He certainly wasn't referring to reverence there. Paul said, "Knowing therefore the terror of the Lord, we persuade men."
I'd be interested in seeing how the Greek word for fear in that passage compares to the word Jesus used.
I'm not the one that said that God "stopped by."
You can't compare Abraham to the Church. The Holy Ghost didn't dwell IN Abraham. He does dwell IN us. God's presence within us or in His Church doesn't come and go and you are basing what God is doing on what you are feeling.

CONTINUED BECAUSE THERE'S A LIMIT ON THE NUMBER OF CHARACTERS ALLOWED!!!!

CONTINUED FROM PREVIOUS POST

There's a specific reason why I use that exact phrase and I would have expected you to know that from the context of where I've used it. I use it because the emotional "frenzy" (wild, reckless emotional abandon) is being induced or (for all intents and purposes) manufactured by MAN through the use of music (volume, speed, etc.) or preaching (volume, style, etc.). It is not the same thing as David's genuine and spontaneous praise when he was returning the Ark to Jerusalem. In any event, Paul specifically commanded "Let everything be done decently and in order" and this clearly precludes any kind of wild, reckless abandon.
It's a shame the way many Pentecostals attribute their emotional responses to the Spirit of God.
But David wasn't whipped up and he certainly wasn't in an emotional frenzy. His praise was genuine and it was not being induced by someone else through their use of music or preaching (volume, style, etc.).
God is continuously present IN His people and IN the Church. This notion of God "moving" is nothing more than a means for people to try to justify their wild emotionalism by pawning it off on God. "Let everything be done decently and in order."
Having this boldness (more accurately "confidence") does not negate the kind of extreme awe and reverence we are to have toward God. This boldness doesn't mean we go storming into the holy of holies without any kind of respect or reverence toward God and His presence.
It still doesn't negate the extreme awe and reverence we are to have toward God and, frankly, calling the wild, reckless emotional abandon many Pentecostals engage in "a move of God" or otherwise attributing our emotional expressions to God shows neither awe nor reverence toward God.
There you go basing things on "experience" instead of truth. It's the old "This is what I experienced, so it must be right" routine.
And yet Paul said "Knowing therefore the terror of the Lord, we persuade men." Jesus said to FEAR Him who has the power to cast body and soul into Hell.
When one prostrates oneself, one may very well appear as a dead man. You're not going to convince me that what John experienced was nothing more than being "slain" in the Spirit.
That's not the point. The point is Daniel's reaction was proper. Daniel wasn't rebuked for his reaction. That Daniel was told to understand does not negate the appropriateness of Daniel's fear.
It was both fearfulness and worship. The Spirit of God doesn't merely come into a meeting: He is already present because He is present in each of us.
Was it so casual?
Where does the BIBLE say the Spirit MOVES in a meeting?
Go look at what I quoted in the original post. What was actually the praise of the congregation was being called a move of God. READ THE WORDS!!!!

Why can't the emotion of praise NOT result from the presence of God and please define what the presence of God is?

Well then why not define "presence of God" for us? It seems to me from Scriptures that the Israelites equated presence of God with where ever the Ark went.

Sa 4:5 And it happened when the ark of the covenant of Jehovah came into camp, all Israel shouted with a great shout, so that the earth rang again.
1Sa 4:6 And when the Philistines heard the noise of the shout, they said, What is the noise of this great shout in the camp of the Hebrews? And they saw that the ark of Jehovah had come into the camp.
1Sa 4:7 And the Philistines were afraid, for they said, God has come into the camp, And they said, Woe to us! For there has not been a thing like this before.

A type of what?
So what you are saying is God's presence gets caught some how behind the curtain? Those Israelites that are praising God believed the Presence of God was there in the very temple they were standing in. See, once again, I think the issue is what are you using as a definition for "presence of God"...
I think, from reading the scriptures, there are differing levels of the presence of God and the more intense ones bring a different kind of praise or worship.

IF there was no presence of God in the rest of the tabernacle then why
Exo 25:30 And you shall set upon the table Bread of the Presence before Me always.

What kind of presence are we speaking of? David speaks of Joy, not reverence in the presence of the LORD
Psa 16:11 You will make Me know the way of life; in Your presence is fullness of joys. At Your right hand are pleasures forevermore.

Psa 95:2 Let us come before His presence with thanksgiving, and make a joyful noise to Him with psalms.

Psa 100:2 Worship Jehovah with gladness; come before His presence with singing.

Another interesting verse
Psa 139:7 Where shall I go from Your Spirit? Or where shall I flee from Your presence?

Psa 140:13 Surely the righteous shall give thanks to Your name; the upright shall dwell in Your presence.

Isaiah
Isa 63:9 In all their affliction He was afflicted, and the Angel of His Presence saved them; in His love and in His pity He redeemed them; and He bore them, and carried them all the days of old.

There are many other verses...what does this show? The Presence of God is not contained in just the Holy of Holies and or that "presence of God" has different meaning depending on the circumstances and thus you just might be using your own definition and interposing it into what someone else is saying. I think there are differences in the presence of God...be it qualitatively or quantitatively or function or purpose, or whatever. But clearly sometimes the presence of God brings about a Holy Reverence and others it brings great rejoicing.

Let me ask you a question, based on some things you already said...You pointed out that "where 2 or 3 are gathered together, there am I in the midst" then you used Jesus appearing to John to show that we should fall down as dead. Everytime you go to a church meeting where 2 or 3 are gathered together in His name do you instantly all fall on your face and remain there until Jesus leaves? How do you known when Jesus leaves? Or is He there the entire time, which would mean the only appropriate action is to remain on your faces in reverence as "dead men" until you do what? Die? All declare vocally that you are no longer gathered in His name?

Why is there an admonition to those in heaven to rejoice...where God is...if to be in His presence means you are not supposed to worship like that but are supposed to be on your face in reverence only?
Rev 12:12 Therefore rejoice, O heavens, and those tabernacling in them. Woe to the inhabitants of the earth and in the sea! For the Devil came down to you, having great wrath, knowing that he has but a little time.

Do you think there is no rejoicing in heaven where God is? How about Joy?
Luk 15:7 I say to you that likewise joy shall be in Heaven over one sinner who repents, more than over ninety-nine just persons who need no repentance.

Let me ask, when Peter and John brought healing to that lame man....was that their own power or was that God? Did God suddenly vacate the premises the moment he began to leap and praise God? See we are back again to what the definition of "presence of God" is. Are we filled with His Spirit...isn't that the presence of God? Maybe it isn't to you, but then you might be using a different definition for "presence of God" than others here. How can someone be filled with the Holy Ghost is God is not present? How can someone be healed if God is not present? How can it be said "You are the temple of God" if God is not present?

It seems to me that you are using circular logic...that the only scriptures that qualify as "the presence of God" are the ones where the reaction is as you believe it should ONLY be....

That is different from how I view this issue. I think it depends totally on God and what He is wanting to do. His Spirit might be there to bring about a Holy Reverence...maybe it might be that the more "in the presence" one gets the more acute such reactions are?

By the blood of Jesus...unlike non Levites and even Isaiah, I have boldness to enter into the Holy place. So positionally yes I am sinless. That is not the same as saying i never have committed sin nor will I.

All I can do is post scriptures. We...now...we are told NOW...we have boldness to enter into the Holy place. I've never once claimed to be morally perfect. I never said it was about me. It's about Him..you know that.

Rejoicing in Praise. Praising Him. Offering Thanksgiving Chancellor IS a part of worship unless...once again, you are using a different definition of the word worship than myself and I think others here. It by no means is the ONLY way to worship nor is Praise equivocally worship....its' a part of worship. What do we do with that word? Worship? Worship to me is extreme love and devotion to....it would naturally include exuberate praise to Him...expressions of thanksgiving...In fact testifying is worship. Saying how wonderful He is is worship. SPeaking of His mighty works is worship.

Which greek and hebrew words Chancellor?

One OT word means serve...now we have to discuss how one defines serving God....serving God does not include praise?

The ISBE says of Worship in the OT
Whatever its origin, worship as developed in the Old Testament is the expression of the religious instinct in penitence, prostration, adoration, and the uplift of holy joy before the Creator.

In fact, that worship includes service is seen here
Jas 1:26 If any man among you seem to be religious, and bridleth not his tongue, but deceiveth his own heart, this man's religion is vain.
Jas 1:27 Pure religion and undefiled before God and the Father is this, To visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, and to keep himself unspotted from the world.

Religion comes from a greek word meaning worshipper

Was the presence of God there? Where these people sinning by not all being on their faces?

Don't get uppity with me young man! :slaphappy

Look, you have been arguing it seems that when the presence of God is here...the ONLY proper response is an "on your face" reference and not any other sort or response that do you does not seem "reverent"...never mind that the true place of reverence is in the heart, which is why Jesus discounted worshiping in the temple for "worshiping in Spirit and in Truth"

Second you argued it seems that in the OT the presence of God was ONLY in the Holy of Holies...if you did not then you sure confused the topic with your examples. What have I been showing? That the presence of God is NOT limited to just the Holy of Holies AND that when the presence of God is encountered they did not all instantly fall on their faces in fearful reverence...someone else correct me if I am wrong but that does seem to be what you have been trying to say...that when the presence of God comes the only proper response is fearful prostration...not joyful singing...not dancing...not shouts of "Praise God"....it has to be fearfully on your face type "worship"....if that is not true then forgive me. I really am just going by what you have said to me and others...

It seems that you are saying two things...1 the sort of response they are doing is wrong and two the presence of God does not result in praise or rejoicing...it results in humble prostration...bowing...kneeling etc etc

Is the Holy Spirit God? Is Jesus God....are they or He or it or whatever "present" during a service?

I didn't see that from this persons post you copied. For all I know their response could have been a result of what they already felt was the presence of God and not the other way around....really Chancellor...some people really do become so happy when they feel the Holy Spirit that they get exuberant....You never experience it?

Yes BUT does the presence of God...when Jesus is in the midst of us...always result in that sort of "emotion"? It seems that you are saying the ONLY thing that should happen...either as our response or what His presence causes us to do...is a fearful (reverent) prostration or bowing and not anything else....not praise...not joyful exclamations...not rejoicing.

When Jesus is present....is God there? When the Holy Spirit is present...is God there? Is your body a temple of God? If so....is God there? See again I think you need to define "presence of God" because I think most of these others would say that if Jesus is there....God is present....that if the Holy Spirit is there....God is present...see?

If God's presence is in us and does not come and go and then we are SUPPOSED to be in reverent prostration....then how do we eat or go to the bathroom? See my point? You seem to be making an absolute response/reaction to "the presence of God"....and even it seems suggesting God really did not "visit"...yet you are admitting above that the presence of God is ALWAYS present if God is in us because God simply does not come and Go...

Can we...when God is present Chancellor...Rejoice? Be exuberant? Praise Him? Have Joy, laughter or singing? Can we dance in praise to Him or Honor to Him? Or is the ONLY proper response/reaction to the presence of God what you said initially? That is what I have been trying to get at from the beginning and why I posted all those verses.

Was Samuel in the presence of God when he heard a voice call his name?

Why not? Was Samuel at any point filled with God's Spirit and if so...was God present? Samuel heard God's voice....Why do you say Samuel was not "in the presence of God"...or let me rephrase it...was God there?

When Israel was led out of Egypt...was God there? Was His Spirit present with them?

The "frenzy" I witness is often in response to what we feel in the Spirit AND OR in response to the uplifting music which inspires people to praise, rejoice or otherwise edify them. And I have witnessed it without the music as well. Having said that, that does not mean that some people are just responding to the music only. David responded to the Ark returning to Jerusalem...he was happy. He was obviously edified and Music was a very important part of their "worship"

Paul said that in reference to the mis-use of the gifts of the Spirit.

many Pentecostals attribute the emotional responses to what God has done for them recently or feeling the Spirit of God as they are "praising" Him....it's a shame that some people aren't able to experience such joy and emotion, but hardly a reason to criticism them all. Sure...some Pentecostals wrongly attribute emotional response to the direct "moving of the Spirit"....but given the original quote you have no evidence that is the case.

You sure about that? I really disagree

2Sa 6:12 David was told, "The Lord has blessed the family of Obed-Edom and everything he owns because of the ark of God." So David went and joyfully brought the ark of God from the house of Obed-Edom to the City of David.
2Sa 6:13 Those who carried the ark of the Lord took six steps and then David sacrificed an ox and a fatling calf.
2Sa 6:14 Now David, wearing a linen ephod, was dancing with all his strength before the Lord.
2Sa 6:15 David and all Israel were bringing up the ark of the Lord, shouting and blowing trumpets.
2Sa 6:16 As the ark of the Lord entered the City of David, Saul's daughter Michal looked out the window. When she saw King David leaping and dancing before the Lord, she despised him.

Wow...can you do that? I mean...sit in a service and look at others and say "that's persons praise is not genuine"? That's a gift I would not want..

If God is continually present...what SHOULD BE our proper response? Why can't we rejoice? Why can't we be exuberant? BTW saying they are pawning off their great joy and rejoicing on God is kind a sickening...like God would never want us to attribute rejoicing and joy to Him? This conversation is leaving a bad taste with me. When David was leaping and dancing...do you think he was stoic and emotionless? And what would He attribute it too? What? He just ate a great meal? I think, based on the scriptures I provided he would "pawn it off on God"....good grief! Don't leap. Don't dance. Don't do this and don't do that....it won't be genuine praise because...well it sounds like because they are Pentecostal...the music is going and they claim the Spirit of the Lord is moving...that's sad.

Nobody said we are NEVER to have extreme awe and reverence....we are talking about the presence of God and you said the presence of God is always here...so do we always act in such a way that is nothing but extreme reverence...no rejoicing..no praising..no testimony...Im having a problem understanding the point you are trying to make Chancellor.

Chancellor you are being VERY subjective...what is wild? what is reckless emotional Abandon and what in the original quote you started this all off with qualifies as wild, reckless emotional abandon?

Second, I have yet to see anyone here call THAT "a move of God"...nor did I see anyone say their praise or emotion is a move of God...rather I have seen people say that their heartfelt PRAISE and Rejoicing was a response to the move of God's Spirit.

Chancellor....old friend...have you never EXPERIENCED God? Sorry, but since repenting of my sins I have had MANY experiences I have never had before...I have had visions. I have spoken in tongues.

Here is what I said
Im curious how that is me basing anything on experience and "not on truth"...what an accusation! Wow...I only relayed my experience. I have given MANY scriptures where the presence of God is mentioned and the result was NOT ALWAYS THE SAME THING...My experience only exemplifies that. You have yet to define what "the presence of God" is and how it can ONLY result in One thing and one thing ONLY and not in different reactions or results which I "experienced" and showed from scriptures.

Clearly you are using the term "presence of the Lord" equivocally...on the one hand "presence of the Lord" as per your example was Isaiah seeing the Lord sitting on the throne...then it was John seeing the resurrected Jesus...then in the OT it was only the Priest entering behind the curtain...but THEN you said the presence of God never goes and indicated it's Him INSIDE us...

I see times IN THE BIBLE where the presence of God resulted in shouts of joy...weeping...dancing...prostration...fearfulnes s....trembling.....healing....revelation

That's not experience that is bible! My experiences only confirm what I read...that when God being present does not result in the same absolute singular thing over and over and over and over.

What does it mean for God to be present or to be in His presence?...really what we are talking about is the Spirit of God being present during a service where two or more are gathered...then again you gave that as an example...does that mean when two or more are NOT gathered in His name He is NOT "there"? But is he still in us? You don't see how there is a DIFFERENCE? Clearly from scriptures there IS a difference. A difference between God being present IN us and God being present IN our midst.

Ok, I ask you again...is that the ONLY proper response and if so do you remain prostrate the entire time God is present?

I don't see this as being a reaction...it was involuntary response..that is why they both NEEDED someone to come and touch them. Second of all the reason I raised Daniel is this was NOT God...it was an angel. WAs Daniel worshiping the angel?
That's because he was not worshiping. This was an involuntary response...sort of like Peter falling into trance.

I never said it was not appropriate...Daniel though was not in reverent prostration to an angel and such a thing IS wrong and WILL be rebuked
Rev 22:7 Behold, I come quickly: blessed is he that keepeth the saying of the prophecy of this book.
Rev 22:8 And I John saw these things, and heard them. And when I had heard and seen, I fell down to worship before the feet of the angel which showed me these things.
Rev 22:9 Then saith he unto me, See thou do it not: for I am thy fellow servant, and of thy brethren the prophets, and of them which keep the sayings of this book: worship God.

Daniel fell as dead...he was not prostrating himself...he and john both fell as though they were dead....I doubt that was intentional reverence. It might have been involuntary fear not reverence fear...in other words John was scared out of his robe

But you admit the Spirit of God DOES come into a meeting...aren't we supposed to be reverent ALL the time? Does that mean we are continually to be physically prostrate? Or are we supposed to be doing that in Spirit...in our hearts?

Well didn't you just admit the Spirit of God comes into a meeting? Using anthropomorphisms I'd say God was moving. Or rather maybe it means the Spirit of the Lord "moves on us"
Jdg 13:25 And the Spirit of the LORD began to move him at times in the camp of Dan between Zorah and Eshtaol.

2Pe 1:21 For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.

ok

See...I just don't see him distinguishing between this being "a move of God" and these being a RESULT of a move of God"....

Also are you saying backsliders finding their way back to an alter (I presume repented) is not "a move of God"?? See again I think we are back to definition. You are using your own definition subjectively and inserting it here..

I get out of this God was doing some awesome things there and as a result people were moved to rejoice...have faith for a need...even repent (backsliders)...

Prax, kudos to you for trying, but you'd have an easier time trying to convince your automobile that it's a Porsche 911.....unless that's what you have.....LOL!

Which is exactly the problem. He is attributing it to a move of God and is not saying that their emotional response was their response to a move of God. In other words, he was saying that the things THEY were doing was itself the move of God.

What I said in regard to this was "Isn't this what's supposed to be happening all the time? What is wrong in the Church today that we consider such things to be out of the ordinary?"

But he never said WHAT God was doing. He equated all the human responses with the move of God as if to say "We had all these human responses: this is proof that God was moving."

Nope, that is not what he said. When I read it, it neither speculated that the things itself were a move of God or specifically that they were evidence of a move of God. But from everything he said, like backsliders praying through I gathered what he meant was this was the result of a move of God.

Well I agree this needs to be more common, but if that is the case why "poopoo" this happening and not rather encourage it to happen more?

He said backsliders were finding an alter again and that people were believing God for "victory" and were getting it (I can't remember what word he said) and he attributed that to "we have a move of God"....

As for your last statement....backsliders repenting and people believing God for some sort of victory and receiving it....why can't that be attributed to a move of God's Spirit? The Spirit brought conviction to those backsliders and maybe even a fearfulness or reverence so that they knew they were wrong and needed to get right?

And the Spirit of God gave faith...maybe the gift of faith was in operation (a Gift of the Spirit) and because of that members were able to believe more than before and receive things they had needed.

And can the move of God's Spirit bring Joy and fill one's heart with rejoicing? Might that result in people shouting, dancing...leaping etc etc?..

Maybe this person was saying "Wow...we had such a move of God (Note the order). People were restored to their relationship with God (backsliders)...people were able to believe God for things they had not before, people were rejoicing with shouts of praise, praying, crying, jumping, dancing etc etc"

That last part does not necessarily prove God was moving, however it's also not necessarily an isolated action that happens without the move of God either. You'd have to be there to know whether it was just a happy service where the saints endulged in praise and happiness because of what God had done in their lives and yes maybe even in response to the musical stimulus that are songs of praise to Him and brings edification (which is what the bible commands).

It could be the music inspired people to praise and worship more and pray more and have faith more and be in unity more and maybe as a result God's Spirit moves as they were in "One mind and one Accord" and "gathered together in My name".

However, since WE were not there I don't think we can make a judgement as to say "Well it was not genuine praise, you all were just getting emotional and the Spirit of God was just simply not moving", don't you agree?

READ THE WORDS! "We had a tremendous, awesome move of God in our service yesterday! The annointing and presence of God was so incredibly strong. . .people were running, shouting, jumping, getting slain. . .people that needed victory claimed it and received it, backsliders were finding their way back to an altar of prayer. . it was just AWESOME!!" There is nothing in this that says these things he described were THE RESULT of the "awesome move of God." The words he used, and the exact order in which he used them, shows he was saying those things he listed WERE the move of God (the "move" being the "anointing and presence of God" that "was so incredibly strong").


Who was doing that? The original poster testified about it in such a way as to suggest it was out of the ordinary and I was questioning why it is out of the ordinary.


Well, it was more likely they were finding the altar but hopefully they were covenanting with God to alter their backslidden lives. And, yes, he was saying this was part of the move itself.

You're not getting it! He didn't merely attribute it to the move of God (my previous use of "attribute" was wrong), he said this was part of the move itself. What these people were REALLY doing was THEIR REACTION, THEIR RESPONSE.

But, again, this is not the "move" itself.

You still haven't shown that God does "move" in the Church.

Again, saying that all those things WERE the move itself or the evidence of the move.

There's a difference between what God does and what we do. As for musical "stimulus," this is what I was referring to, this notion of using music or preaching to manufacture a particular emotional response and then claiming it was God moving.

Not inspired. Induced or manufactured a particular response as so often happens in Pentecostal churches. You cannot deny that musical and preaching style, volume, etc. are used to INDUCE a certain emotional response.

We can make a judgment based on what someone who was there reported and how he reported it. You still haven't shown that God actually "moves" in a service or that there are times when, somehow, God is not there and has to be induced to "drop by" as it were.

Show me where the Bible says that God "MOVES" in the Church.