Global Holy Ghost Infillings: Real or Fake?
 

"And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh:" Acts 2:17a


"Perhaps the biggest news about charismatic or Pentecostal Christians is simply that they are no longer news. Not too long ago, charismatics were a point of fascination in our culture. Thanks to the media, they were widely viewed as a bizarre Christian subculture, a group whose beliefs and behavior embarrassed mainstream Christians.

But things have changed—dramatically. Today our survey results show that charismatics are part of the mainstream Christian culture. Relatively few Americans perceive charismatics to be on the lunatic fringe of beliefs or behavior.

Based on several national studies of charismatics conducted by The Barna Group, we have discovered that roughly one-third of the U.S. adult population claims to be a charismatic or Pentecostal Christian. That means up to 80 million adults in the U.S. characterize themselves as charismatic or Pentecostal. That's more than double the population of California and larger than the entire populations of Australia, Canada, France, Italy, Korea, Spain or Thailand.

The actual figure depends on how the group is defined. Because there is no standard understanding embraced by leaders within the charismatic community, we have examined charismatics using three different definitions. In our surveys with more than 1,000 adults randomly selected from across the country, we saw that figure range from 30 percent to 37 percent, depending upon the definition used.

When we recently released information about the magnitude of the charismatic population, the national media reaction was one of disbelief. "Where are all these people?" was a common question from journalists. The simple answer is that charismatics no longer stand out like the odd child in an otherwise normal family. They are now integrated into virtually every dimension of the Christian body in America, attending churches that are known to be charismatic in orientation as well as churches that are not known in that way.

Research shows that at least one in five adults in a wide range of denominations—Baptist, mainline, evangelical and nondenominational churches—claims to be charismatic. A substantial number of Catholic believers—perhaps as many as one-quarter of that group—also consider themselves to be charismatic Christians."

Re: Global Holy Ghost Infillings: Real or Fake?
 

Several questions.

Is the promised outpouring of the Spirit confined to those churches who hold a Oneness Pentecostal theology?

Can we conclude that all "tongues" experiences outside of Oneness Pentecostalism are fake?

What would it do to our theology if we could, somehow, conclude that a large portion of these experiences are real?

Re: Global Holy Ghost Infillings: Real or Fake?
 

No
No
Not a thing... only to make us more aware that God is moving as He promised and we must go and teach all nations baptising them in the Name.. as He instructed.

The Pouring out of the Holy Ghost is God's business, the teaching and baptising is ours.

Re: Global Holy Ghost Infillings: Real or Fake?
 

If these experiences are real....

how long before an unbaptized (in Jesus' Name) person loses the Holy Ghost?

Re: Global Holy Ghost Infillings: Real or Fake?
 

Well said.

Jesus said the Holy Ghost is supposed to lead us into all truth (John 16:13). Therefore we know that having full truth is not necessarily a requirement to receive the Holy Ghost.

Now if they choose to hold onto traditions and false doctrines after receiving the Holy Ghost (and obviously, there are many that do), then that's on them.

Re: Global Holy Ghost Infillings: Real or Fake?
 

I think that's between them and the Giver of the Gift.

Re: Global Holy Ghost Infillings: Real or Fake?
 

What if they are simply uneducated theologically?

What if they are never shown Jesus' Name baptism?

What if they do not have our Oneness understanding of holiness?

Would they lose the Holy Ghost?

Re: Global Holy Ghost Infillings: Real or Fake?
 

This wasn't addressed at me... but permit me to submit my answer.
The gift is given from God... it isn't something we can judge someone having lost. Although that wellspring can become plugged up with dirt in all of us... Oneness Apostolics and those who haven't been shown the way more perfectly alike. Timothy was instructed to stir up the gift that was in him.

Re: Global Holy Ghost Infillings: Real or Fake?
 

Bump
If the new convert chooses not to follow the Spirit into truth then yes , they can backslide...all of the questions above can and would be answered by the Holy Spirit...

Re: Global Holy Ghost Infillings: Real or Fake?
 

Is there a global revival, apart from Oneness Pentecostalism, going on right now?

How can that be?

Re: Global Holy Ghost Infillings: Real or Fake?
 

Re: Global Holy Ghost Infillings: Real or Fake?
 

Why would God choose someone other than us?

Re: Global Holy Ghost Infillings: Real or Fake?
 

revival is to revive something that was or is already there..

The outpouring of Gods Spirit globally as spoken of in the end times may not be a "revival" as much as something new.. Despite tremendous missionary works there are still places the truth has not been.

Re: Global Holy Ghost Infillings: Real or Fake?
 

Oh boy ....

They are HIS.

Re: Global Holy Ghost Infillings: Real or Fake?
 

Ha... now I perceive you are being facetious.

Hereby we perceive the Love of God... because He laid down His life for us...
While we were yet sinners Christ died for us.
He came to seek and save that which was lost.

I have never read where he came to die for the Oneness Pentecostal.

Re: Global Holy Ghost Infillings: Real or Fake?
 

Stirring up the gift is praying through in tongues, Scotty ... where do you see that?

Re: Global Holy Ghost Infillings: Real or Fake?
 

I ask sincerely.

How can that be?

How can he give His Spirit to a person or group that hasn't even taken His name?

Re: Global Holy Ghost Infillings: Real or Fake?
 

Re: Global Holy Ghost Infillings: Real or Fake?
 

I promise you that is not my intention.

My questions are sincere.

Re: Global Holy Ghost Infillings: Real or Fake?
 

You'll have to ask Him in Heaven.. it's His Spirit to give... It will never negate His instructions to his disciples. The Spirit and the Word agree, because they are one.

Re: Global Holy Ghost Infillings: Real or Fake?
 

Just in general , tongues is one of many gifts is it not? Thats all I meant...

You still feel the need to comment argumentively on everything I post no matter the thread>?

Re: Global Holy Ghost Infillings: Real or Fake?
 

wow... as did the Apostles until they heard them speak with tongues.

Re: Global Holy Ghost Infillings: Real or Fake?
 

Bump

Re: Global Holy Ghost Infillings: Real or Fake?
 

Knowledge of baptismsal forumla is not a requirement to be filled with the Holy Ghost. Neither is knowledge of proper godhead doctrine.

The biblical requirements are repentance and faith. The remaining knowledge is supposed to come afterward.

As we know, even when someone walks into a Oneness church, repents and is filled with the Holy Ghost at the altar, they often don't know much about baptismal formula... that is taught to them by the church members; and they usually know little or nothing about godhead doctrine -- again that is taught to them afterward. It seems fairly clear that accurate knowledge of doctrine is not something God has set as a requirement for the infilling of His spirit.

Now for example if a person receives the HG (in a Trinitarian environment) and still chooses to not accept Jesus name baptism, that is their doing. The scriptures demonstrate Jesus name baptism very clearly. But that's not to say they cant be carried away with man-made doctrines and traditions. Likewise, if they choose to believe the "3-eternal persons in the Godhead" doctrine, again, thats on them. The Holy Ghost never leads anyone to believe in Trinitarianism and/or baptism into God's titles, rather than His name.

The key is that the HG is to lead us into all truth. He doesn't force us -- he leads us into it; but that, of course, requires that we allow ourselves to be led. Not everyone allows themselves to be led into truth... or some are so comfortable in their spiritual comfort zone they're in that they find it hard [or are reluctant], to break away from the traditions that they are surrounded in, in their church environment.

Re: Global Holy Ghost Infillings: Real or Fake?
 

I knew someone raised in the AOG that was baptized in Jesus name IN that AOG church

Re: Global Holy Ghost Infillings: Real or Fake?
 

It happens .

I know someone who told me they baptize in Jesus' name in his COGIC (Chuch of God In Christ) church also.

Re: Global Holy Ghost Infillings: Real or Fake?
 

My wife grew up AoG and was baptized by immersion in a river (hey, some hard core apostolics DO insist that it be moving water!), but was probably baptized in the titles -with Jesus's name being thrown in as well.

Re: Global Holy Ghost Infillings: Real or Fake?
 

My opinion:

1) Is the promised outpouring of the Spirit confined to those churches who hold a Oneness Pentecostal theology?
Answer: No

2) Can we conclude that all "tongues" experiences outside of Oneness Pentecostalism are fake?
Answer: No

3) What would it do to our theology if we could, somehow, conclude that a large portion of these experiences are real?
Answer: We could react several ways.
We could figure God is mercifully drawing them into THE TRUTH as we see it.
We could figure God is more interested in their heart than their head.
We could figure God's theology is different than ours,

Re: Global Holy Ghost Infillings: Real or Fake?
 

Maybe Oneness Pentecostals do not hold an exclusive franchise on the distribution of the Holy Spirit and His gifts. Maybe people can go directly to God and not come to us.

Re: Global Holy Ghost Infillings: Real or Fake?
 

This is from a booklet called "The Charismatic Movement, Renewal or Confusion?" which I received from Pastor James Lee Beall quite a while ago (in the 1960's or maybe in the early 1970's). He was pastor of Bethesda Missionary Temple in Detroit, MI. This church was considered "Latter Rain," "Oneness Pentecostal," or "Apostolic Pentecostal" depending on your viewpoint. In this portion he describes his attitude toward "Charismatics," and tells of being invited to participate in one of their meetings.
---------------
Religious Superiority

It is relatively simple to sit back and criticize every and all religious groups. If you want something to offend you, it will be easily found.

When the Lord God first began to pour the Holy Spirit upon segments of the organized church --the Catholics, the Baptists, the Episcopalians, etc., I sat back to criticize. Believe me, I found plenty that I did not consider right or proper.

How superior I felt as I sat in my detached ivory tower pointing out the wrongs committed by others! There is no feeling quite like that which comes with religious superiority. It is like the eye saying to the hand, "I have no need of you."

...It is my personal opinion that the charismatic renewal has brought segments of the religious world to needed areas of maturity. For the first time in years and years, men and women of different persuasions are able to sit down and talk without cutting one another to pieces. We have ceased being afraid of one another.

My First Charismatic Conference.

Some years back I was invited to one of the major U.S. cities to take part in a city-wide charismatic conference. This was the first for me and I wasn't sure that I wanted to go.

I gave the matter some thought and prayer. Inwardly I knew it was the right step for me. I accepted the invitations and left for the meetings.

What I saw in the initial services made me a little uneasy. Hundreds of people were in attendance with clergymen of all backgrounds.

During the course of this dinner-meeting,the religious community was invited to stand and identify themselves. To my surprise, the Roman Catholics --priests and nuns-- were in the majority.

I could not believe they were really interested in knowing about the baptism in the Holy Spirit and what God was doing spiritually all over the world. I had come to believe that Roman Catholics and Episcopalians were such dyed-in-the-wool sacramentalists that personal spiritual experiences were of little or no interest to them. In that meeting, I began to get the sneaky hunch that I might have been wrong.

The day after the initial dinner-meeting we conducted our services in one of the local church buildings. My responsibility was to speak morning and evening.

Following my teaching on the baptism in the Holy Spirit that evening I invited those who were interested to stand and express their interest in this way. About half of that audience responded.

The church sanctuary was completely filled so I asked those seated in the right front section to move toward the rear if they were not interested in further instruction and prayer for the baptism in the Holy Spirit. Finally, we got everyone settled again.

There in the first rows were Roman Catholic priests and nuns, along with other ministers and workers from various churches. I didn't know exactly what I ought to do.

The reason for my quandry was that I knew the Lord had no intention of filling these people with the Holy Spirit. They belonged to the wrong churches and I was not even sure of their salvation. There was no other step to be taken except that of instruction. This I did with the intention of eventually leading them to prayer.

In my prayer I led these seekers to repeat after me. My prayer would be a request for the forgiveness of sins and the confession that we were fully aware that there was one mediator between God and man, the Lord Jesus Christ. I was going to make Protestants out of all these Catholics if I possibly could. After all, this was the only way they could receive something from the Lord.

Mixed Reactions

While I was praying with my eyes closed, my prayer was interrupted. Someone was singing and praising God in another language. In a few minutes, others joined in.

When I opened my eyes to see who it was who was being filled with the Holy Spirit, i was amazed to find the majority of them were obviously Roman Catholics. My reactions were mixed. I was happy for them, while at the same time puzzled. How could this happen? What did it all mean?

The next day the entire scene broke in on me again. All I could say was, "God did it!" I did not lay my hands on them. No one gave them words to say nor did we initiate anything.

God evidently did not care if they were protestants or Catholics and He did not keep the Spirit from them because they wore clerical clothes. The Lord God looked down into the hearts and saw the hunger there. Not a hunger for things, or experiences, or gifts --just a deep and singular hunger and thirst for Him. He mets the hungry and satisfies their mouth with good things. Make no mistake about this.

Re: Global Holy Ghost Infillings: Real or Fake?
 

I have a DVD which I purchased from the Pentecostal Publishing House a while back. It contains the Pentecostal Herald from December, 1945 (first issue, but with a few pages missing) through December of 2004. They are pdf (portable document format) files. It's been interesting looking at some of those old issues. I used to get the Herald at Church. They were available at both the UPC and ALJC churches where I went. Then a few years ago I subscribed to it. Maybe this is an age thing (I'm seventy years old now) but it seems like these older issues had better articles than the more recent issues. It seemed like each issue had a couple of good sermons or teachings and now they just have "articles."

This is not anything new but goes back quite a few years to the time when folks from different denominations were receiving an experience that they called "the Holy Ghost Baptism" or "the release of the Spirit" or "receiving their prayer language" or "the Baptism in the Holy Spirit." I remember looking down my self-righteous nose at these reports and thinking, "This can't be genuine because they didn't come to us to receive this experience." I guess at that time I thought we had an exclusive franchise on the Spirit of God. Later, my attitude changed.

This is from page 20 of the January 1962 Pentecostal Herald. The author does not question the reality of the experience being received by people.

EPISCOPALIANS RECEIVE THE HOLY GHOST

God has promised that in the last days He would pour out of His Spirit upon all flesh. Stirring reports are coming in to us of how large numbers in nominal churches are receiving the baptism of the Holy Ghost.

Recently an Episcopalian minster named Bennet, pastor of St. Mark's Church of the Holy Spirit in Van Nuys, California, was scheduled to speak at a convention in Moody Memorial Church. As he could not be present, Mrs. Gene Stone, a member of his church, addressed the convention. This young woman is not a minister. In a pleasing manner, interjecting praises to the Lord, she told of how the Lord was doing a new thing in our day. (It is new to them, of course.)

Mrs. Stone told of an Anglican priest in Canada receiving the Holy Ghost. (Episcopalians in Canada are called Anglicans.) She also stated that 1300 Episcopalian priests and lay people in the Los Angeles area had received the Holy Ghost, speaking in other tongues. The experience is changing their lives. They have no time now for dances an cocktail parties. They spend their lives witnessing for the Lord.

Mrs. Stone was invited to lunch with seven Episcopalians. While sitting at the table, a message was given in tongues, and interpreted. The waitress, a Baptist, trembling with coffee cups in her hand said, "That's what I want: I've always wanted something more." She received the Holy Ghost right there in the restaurant.

Later at a motel the manager, a woman, knocked at Mrs. Stone's door, saying, "May I speak with you?" But she seemed speechless. Soon Mrs. Stone asked, "Did you want to speak about the Holy Ghost?" The woman answered, "Yes." Soon she was speaking with other tongues.

All this proves that we indeed are living in the last days.

Re: Global Holy Ghost Infillings: Real or Fake?
 

I certainly don't believe in the Trinitarian doctrine and I never could be Trinity but many Trinitarians can and do receive The Baptism of The Holy Ghost do I understand folks having the Holy Ghost believing Trinitarian doctrine no I don't ?
But I don't deny that people in other groups do get the Holy Ghost, hopefully they let it lead them into all truth.
Jesus Christ can baptize anybody He wants to with The Holy Ghost,that is His business.

Re: Global Holy Ghost Infillings: Real or Fake?
 

How can it be?


How can it NOT be? I think your inference is a "sham"!

Re: Global Holy Ghost Infillings: Real or Fake?
 

You realize, of course, that Trinnies may be saying the exact same thing about you guys. :)

Bingo!

Re: Global Holy Ghost Infillings: Real or Fake?
 

Heb 1:2
2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;
KJV

Re: Global Holy Ghost Infillings: Real or Fake?
 

Bingo? What's does that mean?
You believe that "God's theology" is different from what Apostolics teach ?

Why would the fact that non-Apostolics receive the Holy Ghost mean that Apostolic theology is different from God's theology?

Re: Global Holy Ghost Infillings: Real or Fake?
 

This was not addressed to me but since it was a comment on something I said, I will give an answer. Remember, this is my opinion.

What do "Apostolics" teach?
There is great diversity among Apostolics when it comes to many things we believe and teach. We have pre-trib, mid-trib, post-trib, preterists of various shades, plus other shades of eschatology. We have some who are almost Amish in their dress code and fellowship and others of various degrees of rules, regulations, and traditions. We have one-steppers and three-steppers.

When I suggested that Apostolic theology may be different than God's theology, what I was hinting at was that while God may want to see us all go through the "three-step" pattern in our Christian life and experience, He might be "one-step"when it comes to salvation.

I am what is known as a greasy grace, easy believism, Bapticostal, PCI one-stepper to some. I consider myself to be a One God, Jesus' Name Apostolic, Holiness, Pentecostal. However, as a one-stepper I believe that anyone who has made a personal commitment to Jesus and has asked Him to come into their heart and life is justified/saved/regenerated and is therefore my brother or sister in God's family and is a fellow member in the Church (THE CHURCH spelled with a capital "C", i.e. the Body of Christ). In my opinion, the HGB (Holy Ghost Baptism) is one of the workings of the Holy Spirit in the life of a believer and is not the birth of the Spirit and is not part of "the plan of salvation." Therefore I have no problem believing that folks from other churches, denominations, organizations, cultural backgrounds, traditions could in fact be receiving the REAL Holy Ghost Baptism.

Re: Global Holy Ghost Infillings: Real or Fake?
 

Brother Sam, every time I read any of your responses, they are filled with a great deal of wisdom. I appreciate the words that you share on all of the boards that I see you post on. I pray that God continues to bless all of us to receive the wisdom that you have. Peace Be.

Re: Global Holy Ghost Infillings: Real or Fake?
 

Is there an Apostolic church that teaches/preaches what Sam believes concerning salvation (one-step, never heard of that before)? Doesn't his theology makes sense when you compare the experiences of the Ethiopian, the Phillipian jailer and the book of Romans to Acts 2:38? His statement kinda puts my mind at ease concerning the welfare of the souls of the non-apostolic Christians I know who have an active relationship with our Savior.

Re: Global Holy Ghost Infillings: Real or Fake?
 

I don't with to get too much into the whole "3-step" vs "1-step" discussion, and I certainly don't want to see this thread get hijacked, so I'll just say this...

You'd probably do better basing your theology on what the Bible says, rather that what somebody on a message board says simply because what they said "makes sense".

There's a lot of stuff out there that's not biblically correct but it might seem to "make sense" when you hear someone try to explain it to you. ("The Trinity" is just one such example)


His statement puts your mind at ease? Interesting.
Just think for a minute how that sounds.