Apostolic Revival
 

I am new to this board, so please pardon me if you all have discussed this before.

I am at a total loss why we apostolics tend to be divisive and reclusive as a movement. What could we do and how could we affect to world, if we had a real apostolic fellowship? Instead of putting UPC missionaries basically in competition with ALJC missionaries and PAW missionaries, we could plan better, say this city has a missionary or two, so why not put the next missionary in the next city. Imagine the influence of our churches if we had 2 or 3 large churches in a major city, instead of 40 churches of 20 people.

Yet of course, we can't fellowship with the next church, well because they have tv's, or our sleeves are longer than theirs. And we cant come together in unity, because someone would have to be an associate/asst pastor, instead of senior pastor. And God forbid if anyone give up thier place as superintendent or other posistions.

So we pine away, one split after another. We as a movement are surviving, but not thriving. And why? Has the power of God left? No. But we have decided who is God's church and who isn't.

I have never been to or even heard of a service, meeting, conference or campmeeting that was put together for the purpose of apostolics coming together for woship and unity.

I live in texas, and can testify it would be amazing if any of these things happened here. (On an unrelated thought, when did camp meeting become a social fashion party?) Can you imagine a conference that was UPC, ALJC, PAW, AWCF, and independents. It would have to be held in a stadium, certainly would be in Lufkin. Or even an area where 3 small churches pulled together to make 1 fairly strong and noticable church?

Yet from what I can gather, everyone is worried about what this person/group believes about holiness, modesty, tithing, sabbath, etc.

I say (perhaps in ignorance) that we should concentrate on the common denominator, that is our fundamental apostolic doctrine o the oneness of God, baptism in Jesus name, and the infilling of the Holy Ghost. for by One Spirit we are all baptized into One Body.

Re: Apostolic Revival
 

Sounds great. Most people on here would be for it, but it will never happen. Too many egos and too many legalistic thinkers. The more liberal sided people would be ALL for it, but some on the conservative side might not be for it. Many times as I am sure you know the more conservative people tend to marginalize the more liberal as being lost, backsliders, or whatever term you could insert. I do join with you and agree that inorder for truth world change to happen we have to join forces, but it seems forces are against it.

Re: Apostolic Revival
 

Not ignorance, brother, but perhaps idealism and naivete. We've all had those "cant we all just get along?" thoughts before. But realistically, the unity you're thinking of will probably never happen.

The walls between the apostolic groups are so firmly and deeply entrenched, that it would take a mighty move of God to bring them down... and I'm just not really expecting that to happen.

Among the "walls" (that are unlikely to be overcome) are differences in beliefs on:

*women preachers,
*marriage/divorce/remarriage,
*dress standards,
*jewelry,
*television (watching it...and using it for ministry),
*fellowshipping with Trinitarians
... and a whole lot more.

Re: Apostolic Revival
 

I think you right. The problem is however, we seem to have a problem coming to any consensus of the basics. You answered most of your questions already. There is entirely too much division, but what you gonna do? I think, and this is just my own toake on things...we just love to fuss. Fussing has become so normal to us that we feel like we're backslid if a fuss don't come up every two or three days.

I don't know- I've talked a lot about unity here but, it goes out the window. But I do remember in Florida once, someone organized a statewide fellowship meeting. It was held in Gainsville at an auditorim. What a sight that was. That place was packed with Apostolic believers from all over the state. And what a service! Sadly, we've become too plarized in our doctrines, in our organizations to seee something like that done today.

You on to something, Brother. It would be great-

By the way, welcome to the Forum!

Re: Apostolic Revival
 

All those differences already exist within the UPC

Re: Apostolic Revival
 

There is an organization called the UACoJC (United Apostolic Church of Jesus Christ). It is a small organization but has several churches in Indiana and some others in other states. They have monthly fellowship meetings in Indiana. I've never been to any but keep thinking I'll get there some time to one that is close to where I live in Ohio. It is my understanding that these fellowship meetings are attended by folks who are not in the UACoJC. Bishop Howard of New Castle, IN was part of the group who created this organization. He used to have fellowship meetings that were not limited to any specific organization.

The website for the UACoJC is
http://uac-jc.org/home.php

Re: Apostolic Revival
 

1 Behold, how good and how pleasant it is for brethren to dwell together in unity!
2 It is like the precious ointment poured on the head, that ran down on the beard, even the beard of Aaron [the first high priest], that came down upon the collar and skirts of his garments [consecrating the whole body].
3 It is like the dew of [lofty] Mount Hermon and the dew that comes on the hills of Zion; for there the Lord has commanded the blessing, even life forevermore [upon the high and the lowly].
Psalm 133:1-3 from the Amplified Bible

Re: Apostolic Revival
 

I think one probelm is that many people make salvational issues out of things that are not salvational.We need to focus on things that are essential and biblical and don't need to make things Thus Saith The Lord that The Lord didn't thus say.

Re: Apostolic Revival
 

The bold part-is how many see it accept that most men/women only unify with people that believe exactly the same as them. As you and I well know there are friends of our that were once part of the ALJC that once they left they were treated as no longer being unified. They became out cast as it were. There was someone that said UNITY is 'U-N-I-Tied' together. Unity is nice to think about seldom obtained.

Re: Apostolic Revival
 

In the first verses of 1 Corinthians chapter 3 the Apostle Paul spoke of divisions in the church. He said that they were carnal because of their divisions. I think this could also apply to our divisions based on organization, following a popular preacher/leader, etc.

Here are verses one through nine from the New King James Version:

1 Corinthians 3

Sectarianism Is Carnal

1 And I, brethren, could not speak to you as to spiritual people but as to carnal, as to babes in Christ. 2 I fed you with milk and not with solid food; for until now you were not able to receive it, and even now you are still not able; 3 for you are still carnal. For where there are envy, strife, and divisions among you, are you not carnal and behaving like mere men? 4 For when one says, “I am of Paul,” and another, “I am of Apollos,” are you not carnal?

Watering, Working, Warning

5 Who then is Paul, and who is Apollos, but ministers through whom you believed, as the Lord gave to each one? 6 I planted, Apollos watered, but God gave the increase. 7 So then neither he who plants is anything, nor he who waters, but God who gives the increase. 8 Now he who plants and he who waters are one, and each one will receive his own reward according to his own labor.
9 For we are God’s fellow workers; you are God’s field, you are God’s building.

Re: Apostolic Revival
 

The statement is largly true, but as Sam said the upc has plenty of divestity. Yet why they/we (I'm in UPC) don't stretch this tolerance beyond three letters of an acronym i don't know.

Re: Apostolic Revival
 

Don't ya'll realize the UPC is the only true church?

It's found in the Bible, Acts chapter 2, plain as can be for all who want to see.

In verse one it says that they were all with one accord (that's United) on the day of Pentecost (that's Pentecostal) and then in verse 47 it talks about God adding to the church (so there we find the church). See, Acts chapter 2 we find the United Pentecostal Church, and don't you forget it.

Remember at General Conference when we would all stand and sing together


The reason I'm in this Church
is I don't want to be lost.
God's only got one Church
it's United Pentecost.
The reason I'm in this Church
is I don't want to be lost.
No, I don't want to be lost.

Re: Apostolic Revival
 

Now you need to add a verse for the ladies about not bobbing their hair. :)

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I agree with you to a point, i don't see this happening real soon, but i do believe it is going to happen somehow. I do believe that God is going to unify his church in a unity of the spirit in the last days.

Perhaps I have spent to much time thinking about it, but I am not suggesting doing away with orginzations in favor of one unified body, although that would be ideal, tht would really have to be God. I am wondering allowed why the current orginazations and fellowships can't keep their cards, structure an officers, yet have fellowship and other co-operation with other oneness bodies. For example I spoke with JL Hall one time about the ALJC, and he said that at one time there were discussions of the ALJC joining the UPC. When those discussion broke down on basis of the adam doctrine, UPC basically has nothing to do with ALJC. I don't understand why the cant get together and say (I'll use USA as example, because I am not familiar enough with cities in other countries) "okay, we already have 3 upc missionaries in dallas, and PAW has 2 missionaries, so we have that field covered, lets send the next missionary to Fort Worth. It's not as big as Dallas, but the potentiel for a great church is there. What we currently have is every organization wants to have a missionary in a major/capital city. So we have who knows how many missionaries in say Mexico City, but yet several (as my understanding is) large cities in mexio have no missionary. How does this make good sense? I'm not saying 1 missionary per city, that is foolish for a large city, but I'm saying, until we spread out our growth will be limited. I'm not concerned with growth, but how to spread the gospel. As Jesus said,( i paraphrase) "this gospel shall be preached in the whole earth, THEN shall the end come."

Even if our current generation doesn't understand the importance of this, the younger gereation is seeing how we are hampered by being more and more sectarian. hopefully we will attain a unity of the Spirit in the years to come.

I've got a feeling when the antichrist is in power if we are shipped off to be put to death, we are not going to be asking the person next to us "do you have a tv? or "do you trim your hair?" The time we waste, now is the day!

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What are the ones complaining about the UPC doing to invite UPC to fellowship instead of blaming them as the only reason apostolics cannot be united.

Re: Apostolic Revival
 

So true.
And there are some on this forum who seem to take every opportunity they can to "get their digs in" at the UPC, even when its not even called for.

I find it kinda pathetic, actually.

Re: Apostolic Revival
 

There is only One church...that church consist of people who follow and live God's word. Not everyone in the world will have a United Pentecostal Church in their area to attend. We can recieve a Bible and recieve God's Spirit...because Nothing is impossible for God. This thought that only one organization can be right is WRONG. It appears from what I've seen at the AFF that one mind and one accord is not required to be saved. We should be uniting but not to form one organization but one mind and one accord...then we can see the Acts chapter 2 Revival.

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Most people that go are from the UACJC churches, but it's open to anybody....which as far as that goes, so are UPC and etc. rallies. A lot of times only birds with the same-colored feathers will flock together though....

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For the record, I'm fer Apostolic Unity! :thumbsup

The problem starts because the conservative branch will feel like they're COMPROMISING to associate themselves with liberals and moderates. Those libs might as well be Trinnies as far as they're concerned!

Apostolics tend to look at the small picture with tunnel vision, instead of the big picture. IMHO

Re: Apostolic Revival
 

Jason-

In the Deep Waters section, you'll find a thread about The Unity of the Faith. I posted a 4 part series about UNity- Its pretty long, but it details my views about the subject.

I believe a revival of restoration (i'll call it) is coming to God's people. A Revival of Unity that will transcend organizations. I don't know how, and don't know when, but its imperative for our survival as a people of faith.

Unity is a subject that doesn't get much attention.

Re: Apostolic Revival
 

thank you,

Even churches within the UPC are not the same. I am seeing alot of churches in our district making a swing both back to conservative views and yet more liberal in fellowship and bringing in the lost.

Its our job to get them in the church, how they live or what "standards" they live by is between them and God. Its not our job to tell them what they should or shouldn't be doing. The Holy Ghost will do that. In the meantime they are brothers and sisters in the Lord.

So will someone again please tell me what is wrong with UPC?

Re: Apostolic Revival
 

A portion of the post on "The Unity of the Faith" - in the Deep Waters Section .

Re: Apostolic Revival
 

This is good. Many churches aren't afraid to get outside their walls and this is great. Great things are happening in the UPC. Personally, I feel the UPC will make a turn toward the left in the next decade or so in order to reach the lost.

Re: Apostolic Revival
 

I remember Jim Larson in Indy tried to organize a city-wide evangelistic crusade with other "apostolic" pastors in the area. He wanted to bring a big gun preacher, rent out the big convention center downtown, have all the churches contribute and all the churches would divide the spoils equally depending on the geographical location of where the new people lived. It never flew. None of the other pastors would cooperate.

I remember asking KHaney about why this sort of thing wouldn't work. He chuckled and said it'd never work because most pastors are not evangelistic minded enough to want to do it.

Re: Apostolic Revival
 

Well, someone has to get the credit and cooperation usually means less credit for those involved.

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Somebody has to be the leader and cast the vision and marshall the resources. How can that be avoided?

In JL's case, as I remember it, he was willing to stand in the background and allow all the pastors to equally participate in the services and present the effort as a group effort and not put himself or his church up front. I always thought that was pretty generous, especially considering it was JL.

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I remember a meeting at the Convention Center in downtown Cincinnati back in 1969 or so when Apostolics from several organizations met. I thought it was neat but I've always been an "ecumaniac." I don't remember any follow up meetings.

I've been to some fellowship meetings in Cincinnati that turned into "battleship" meetings with people storming off the platform and out the door in a huff because there was a dispute about "women preachers" or how someone had prayed and ministered to the sick by calling them out and diagnosing their problems. These were attended by preachers from a couple of small organizations and independents (but not UPC.)

Re: Apostolic Revival
 

It like any Organization, no more, no less.

Trouble is, I think some have bitterness & won't move on.

JMHO Though.

Re: Apostolic Revival
 

who is bashing upc? im upc, but all i'm saying is we have the influence and numbers to do something along the lines of major apostolic unity, and we are dropping the ball. Our leaders will only accept unity under the auspecies of another organiation becoming upc, not just having common fellowship.

i want to see upc thrive, but we need to have more effort for unity.

Re: Apostolic Revival
 

cool , i'll check it out soon

Re: Apostolic Revival
 

Hang around , if you haven't seen it yet , you will

either way like I said , as far as my district is concerned we are reaching out....Remember , the UPC did not remove those who are split, they left on their own...

Re: Apostolic Revival
 

I can't find it, like i said I'm new, is there a link you can post?

Re: Apostolic Revival
 

I too believe a revival of restoration that will come to God´s people.

Re: Apostolic Revival
 

Re: Apostolic Revival
 

Ageed, Bro Scott, but who are going to be the ones to decide what is salvational and what is not? Who is going to give up their own salvational doctrines?

A Utopian View of the Christ Body at large might be that everyone keep their own ideas but also tolerate and fellowship everyone else......except???? the trinitites, the TVites, the Hooverites, Catholicites, the Baptistoes, the Libitarians, the Dualitarians, the URarians, the Preteristos, the AOGites, the AG Harristites, the Epleyites, the Bro-Larites, .......and on and on it goes.

Isn't most everyone afraid that what others believe will defile them?

Re: Apostolic Revival
 

I believe you are right (see bolded) Bro OA, but will it take CJ's refiner's fire to get it done?

Re: Apostolic Revival
 

It is what it is, Bro Scotty. It is what it is.

Re: Apostolic Revival
 

like anything else ...the human factor...

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That's right sister, we could all get the work of God done, IF we didn't have to deal with PEOPLE, couldn't we??? lol

Re: Apostolic Revival
 

Most are unwilling to forfeit their traditions, therefore the "gospel of reconciliation" is not heard, therefore the masses languish in the broadway headlong to the refining fire. God isn't angry, He WAS in Christ reconciling the world unto Himself!!!! It is finished, therefore enter into LIFE.