Reason enough to leave?
 

Over the past couple of years, I have posted both here and on another board the bizarre "happenings" that started at the church my wife grew up in. A new pastor had just started a few months prior and taught a short class for married couples.

This is the actual handout we were given that morning..... And we never returned. Two years later, most of the people who thought he was nutz then have no come around to his (the pastors) way of thinking.

Question is, how many would have done the same thing we did? Would you have given him a chance? Does anyone here actually agree with this nonsense being taught?

http://i174.photobucket.com/albums/w...nMarriage1.jpg

http://i174.photobucket.com/albums/w...nMarriage2.jpg

http://i174.photobucket.com/albums/w...nMarriage3.jpg

Re: Reason enough to leave?
 

Later gator...

Re: Reason enough to leave?
 

Thats what we said. Left before the service even started!
(The class was held an hour before the service.)

Re: Reason enough to leave?
 

Blows my mind how nutso some folks are...


I'd be screaming as I left, "RUN! RUN AWAY! FAR FAR FAR AWAY!!! JONESTOWN AND WACO COMETH!" :runhills:runhills:runhills

Re: Reason enough to leave?
 

There are so many errors.....so much misinformation.... I'd have laughed out loud and left. There's just no way. Not a chance.

Re: Reason enough to leave?
 

Re: Reason enough to leave?
 

nuts

Re: Reason enough to leave?
 

And like I mentioned. Almost everyone else thought it was off the wall.... but we, and another couple, were the only ones to leave. Now two years later, everyone else who remains has "seen the light" and support (his) teaching.

Re: Reason enough to leave?
 

Here is an easy answer to this Old testament teaching:

Heb 13:4 Marriage is honourable in all, and the bed undefiled: but whoremongers and adulterers God will judge.

Re: Reason enough to leave?
 

Sounds Docetic.

Re: Reason enough to leave?
 

wow I did not know people went that deep into other peoples lives from the pulpit.I have read this teaching among the Messianics.

Re: Reason enough to leave?
 

It is unclear if the preacher made this a heaven or hell issue. Maybe one should have stayed to find that out.

I've heard about scientific evidence which promotes abstainence during the purification process for health reasons...

The apostle Paul gives admonition if husband and wife agree, there could be a time of physical separation for a season. For the most part, that would come into the picture for spiritual reasons.

Re: Reason enough to leave?
 

Wasn't that during a period of fasting?

Re: Reason enough to leave?
 

Re: Reason enough to leave?
 

If you hit refresh, it should pop up. I scanned three pages from the original handout we received because I didn't feel like typing it all in.

Re: Reason enough to leave?
 

Well I guess that would stop people from having babies 10 months apart.

Re: Reason enough to leave?
 

Crazy thing is is that it has the exact opposite effect. The whole reason for this stuff is to HAVE as many babies as possible. My wifes cousins wife is on her 4th kid and has become pregnant an average of 8-9 weeks after having the last one. They follow this teaching religiously and do not plan on stopping.

Re: Reason enough to leave?
 

They should consider breast feeding.

That might help space them out a little farther.

As to your question...

This alone wouldn't be enough for me to leave... maybe... I'm not sure.

But it would be enough for me to be very wary of what is going on and would, in all probability, end up with the same result.

Re: Reason enough to leave?
 

Re: Reason enough to leave?
 

No fasting, just "withholding".

Re: Reason enough to leave?
 

Breastfeeding is taught as the ONLY way to feed the wee ones..... No need to stop at one (or two) years either!

But.... if there was ever a worse means of natural birth control, the "breast feeding" method has to rank up there as the number one worst. About as effective as the "I sure hope this doesn't happen!" method.

Re: Reason enough to leave?
 

Oh please... the preaching get too hard?! A ton of other religions have standards concerning sexual relations... even within marriage. Plus, the Israelites, ALL 3 million of them (so a few hundred thousand) married couples did this and they were fine. Now, as for it being binding on NT believers, well I don't know about that, but I surely wouldn't have left. I would have listened dilligently, and studied like the Bereans did. I would have consulted with the pastor(s) and others. Who knows, maybe I'd be one who would "see the light" in this teaching. I haven't come across any of these people, and am not married and neither do I pastor married people (or anyone for that matter), so I have no need of this teaching, but that doesn't mean I'd just discard it. Proverbs 18:13 says, "He that answereth a matter before he heareth it, it is folly and shame unto him." I'm not all for sticking with a church for anything, obviously, I'd leave for bad doctrine, but this is a standard, taught in sincerity and through study, deserves the consideration of those who are present at the study, and it can be studied, debated, ect...

GOD BLESS!
Bro. Alex

Re: Reason enough to leave?
 

I only posted three pages of the standard handout. There was also a multi page study guide with even more ludicrous positions in it.
In other posts I told the story of a young lady who had just gotten married and was sitting in this class. She is "cursed" with a very irregular period which can last from 3 to 14 days and seems to come at random times. She was told point blank that nothing can "happen" during this period AND during the 7 days following due to the Levitical cleansing period. Throw into the mix that "nothing was to happen" on Sunday or Sat night (because it is of course proceeded by Sunday -in a Monty Pythonisque sort of way), and their sex life was reduced down to a couple of days a month.
A few months after we left, she called my wife in tears because her AND HER HUSBAND got to "fooling around" on a... <gasp>.... Sunday afternoon and she was racked with guilt because she had gone against the pastors teachings on marital sex.
In this case there are THREE people at fault: The pastor for throwing this ridiculas doctrine at people and denying to them everything that God has granted, and 2) This lady for LISTENING to him and 3) her husband for not putting his foot down.

But yes, when strange doctrine rears its ugly head, I very much feel like you need to run as fast as your chubby little legs will carry you.

Re: Reason enough to leave?
 

Now don't get me started on gluttony brother! :lol
If it's bad teaching, sure, get out of that assembly if GOD gives you the release... BUT to leave a study just because it looks too strict/difficult whatever, I don't believe is wise and it is not hearing out a matter.
I do think, again to the Israelites concerning this, and they did it and were ok. It is not IMPOSSIBLE, the question is whether it is necessary. I think the preacher I got "saved" (really convinced of the Apostolic message, he didn't baptize me) under preached a separation of the women when they were in their "unclean time." His church also had segregated seating between the men and women. They later added some bad doctrines, so much so they are no longer brethren :depressed... Anyways, I hope all works out with your wife's old church.

GOD BLESS!
Bro. Alex

Re: Reason enough to leave?
 

God love ya, Bro Alex, but you seem to be very wise beyond your years. Never stop learing.

You are right, anytime you see self-indulgence in any form, you will always find that it is only the tip of the iceberg. Beneath is a large chunk of Pharaseeism, legalism, bondage, and other sins as well. Anything associated with the law brings a curse. Bro-Larry

Re: Reason enough to leave?
 

I found this last sentence to be interesting... Is this true brethren? Isn't the law good, as Paul said? Isn't it a schoolmaster? Isn't the Law of the Lord perfect, converting the soul? Or did I take all those phrases out of context, and maybe make up a few phrases? I'm not trying to be critical (in a bad sense), I just want to get a better understanding of this sentence given to us by Bro. Larry.

GOD BLESS!
Bro. Alex

Re: Reason enough to leave?
 

Because when you choose to follow the law you are judged by the law. A very scary proposition.

Re: Reason enough to leave?
 

If by 'the law' you mean the law of sin and death, then yes you're right.

If by 'the law' you mean God's Law, the Mitzvah given to Moses and the Children of Israel, you have absolutely no idea of what you speak.

Re: Reason enough to leave?
 

No... not so much...

Re: Reason enough to leave?
 

:blink


That is what's being taught?

Re: Reason enough to leave?
 

Alex, it's not true.

It's a misconception that was started in the second century by a heretic named Marcion, who Polycarp, John's disciple, called the spawn of satan himself due to his heresies like that.

Yet today we see it all over the church world.

The Law does not bring curses on people. Breaking the Law does.

Which part of the Law is evil? Which part of the Law is the part folks don't want to live by?

I'm not talking about the ceremonial laws, so I hope no one comes here and starts throwing out "don't wear polyesther and rayon" or whatever...

I'm talking about "Love God with all your heart and Love your neighbor as yourself". That's the synopsis of the entire Law... Jesus himself said it. So... how does living under that bring a curse?

Re: Reason enough to leave?
 

A little more context. That preacher is gone overboard. I bet there are a lot of frustrated marriages in that church. Anyone want to speculate what's going on in that church if he allows the internet?

Re: Reason enough to leave?
 

Good grief, that sounds weird to me. I don't think that is very sound teaching.

Re: Reason enough to leave?
 

I have seen all kinds of spin on this issue, but Deut 28:15-68 lists fifty-eight verses of curses. That's part of the Mitzvah. Everything changed after the cross. Now, (after the cross) if you try to be saved by the works of the law (Mitzvah), and then you offend in one point, you place yourself under
the curse of the law (Gal 3:10) "For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is everyone that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them."

Some spin it as the Mitzvah, some spin it as God's moral law, or ceremonial law but unless you are trusting in the finished work of Jesus, you are under the curse. The curse of the law is threefold: poverty, sickness and spiritual death.

There are lots and lots of good Apostolic people in our churches, but many are trying to be good enough in the own self efforts. Show me one person, except Jesus, who has ever been good enough to make it by their own self efforts, and I'll recant my position on this issue.

Re: Reason enough to leave?
 

Bro. Ronzo, With all due respect, You show me one person who has never broken the law, except Jesus. All men have fallen under the curse of the law.

You yourself don't love God with all your heart, soul, mind and strength, neither do you love your neighbor as yourself. It's impossible. That's why the law was given: to show man that he could not please God by his own efforts. The law was our tutor who said, " you can't do it, look to Jesus".

Re: Reason enough to leave?
 

The CURSE of the law is the curse of the law of sin and death, not the Law of God.

Re: Reason enough to leave?
 

Correction: "learning" LOL

Re: Reason enough to leave?
 

No disagreement here on this.

"Christ has redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us." (Gal 3:13)

Re: Reason enough to leave?
 

Fist of all Alex, your condescending tone is unnecessary.

Second.. you claim that a ton of other religions have standards for sexual relations within marriage. Please tell me... what in the world do "other religions" marriaage & sexual standards have to with us Apostolic Christians? (The answer would be: "absolutely nothing")

Furthermore ... You said you wouldn't have left, and that Randy & Wife should have studied like the Bereans before leaving? OK.. Well how long does it take for you to recognize erroneous teaching? 2 hours?. 2 days? 2 weeks of "consultations" with the person teaching it ? Whats your time limit before it would have been okay for them to leave? As for me, it took me only 5 minutes to confirm that what what this man is teaching is an unscriptural application of old Testament law, being applied to Christians who are not under the law to begin with. If you recognize false doctrine, you have the right to leave that church environment as you see fit, when you see fit. Plain and simple.

The bigger issue here is control, and bondage. Too many pastors make up man-man rules for their church to follow, based on their personal convictions -- teachings often created by a misreading or misapplication of scripture. They put unscriptural burdens on their people, and expect folks to walk in lockstep. Pastors too often apply their "house rules", and personal preferences, and try to make it sound like biblically based doctrine.

Personally, I might have sat down with my pastor at least once to get further clarification before leaving. But I don't criticize those who left immediately in this case. The pastor's reasoning was already pretty clear. He clearly spelled out his reasoning on paper, with his scripture references and his explanations. At the end of the day, his teaching/revelation or whatever he considers it does not stand up to scripture. I would have left myself. At the end of the day, my loyalty is to the word of God, not to any pastor and his teaching.

PS...

When you get married one day, and you and your spouse find yourselves having to decide and choose whether to conduct your sexual relations based on the Word of God, or based on some handout your pastor typed up... lets see if you 'll be okay with having your bedroom rules set by your pastor.

Re: Reason enough to leave?
 

There is so much wrong with this teaching that it is hard to actually pick out specifics. One thing that made my wife irate was the claim that not following certain abstinence periods can cause a 20% increase in Down's Syndrome -which is a blatant lie!
So much of this ties future problems with the "sin" of not following these 'rules'. Problems with a pregnancy or the baby? Must be the mothers fault for allowing sin into her life! (Incidentally this is also why I disagree so much with the idea on other threads that sickness is caused by sin....)