Apostolic Friends Forum

Apostolic Friends Forum (https://www.apostolicfriendsforum.com/index.php)
-   Fellowship Hall (https://www.apostolicfriendsforum.com/forumdisplay.php?f=7)
-   -   Jesus made a whip (https://www.apostolicfriendsforum.com/showthread.php?t=13408)

Ferd 03-19-2008 01:33 PM
Jesus made a whip
 
For Michael Phelps
John 2:
13 It was nearly time for the Jewish Passover celebration, so Jesus went to Jerusalem. 14 In the Temple area he saw merchants selling cattle, sheep, and doves for sacrifices; he also saw dealers at tables exchanging foreign money. 15 Jesus made a whip from some ropes and chased them all out of the Temple. He drove out the sheep and cattle, scattered the money changers’ coins over the floor, and turned over their tables. 16 Then, going over to the people who sold doves, he told them, “Get these things out of here. Stop turning my Father’s house into a marketplace!”

Pressing-On 03-19-2008 01:35 PM
Re: Jesus made a whip
 
He certainly did! That's why preachers preach so loud now!

:killinme

DividedThigh 03-19-2008 01:35 PM
Re: Jesus made a whip
 
sounds like some seriously righteous indignation, lol,dt

Ferd 03-19-2008 01:36 PM
Re: Jesus made a whip
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by DividedThigh (Post 418220)
sounds like some seriously righteous indignation, lol,dt
clearly anger, when channeled correctly is not sinful.

Jesus took time. Plotted his actions.

rgcraig 03-19-2008 01:36 PM
Re: Jesus made a whip
 
Whoa.....has history been made here?

MP was wrong about something? :reaction

Ferd 03-19-2008 01:41 PM
Re: Jesus made a whip
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by rgcraig (Post 418227)
Whoa.....has history been made here?

MP was wrong about something? :reaction
he was wrong last week too.... but this time, he simply didnt have information....

TrmptPraise 03-19-2008 01:42 PM
Re: Jesus made a whip
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ferd (Post 418224)
clearly anger, when channeled correctly is not sinful.

Jesus took time. Plotted his actions.
A majority of the time, anger is a secondary emotion to another emotion. In this case perhaps as a sense of hurt because of disrespect.

But I still agree with your point, the Bible does tell us "Be ye angry, and sin not..."

Pressing-On 03-19-2008 01:42 PM
Re: Jesus made a whip
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by rgcraig (Post 418227)
Whoa.....has history been made here?

MP was wrong about something? :reaction
He forgot his Bible stories. :tissue And it isn't the first time!!! :killinme

DividedThigh 03-19-2008 01:43 PM
Re: Jesus made a whip
 
so plotting my angered whippings is good, i used to do that on the way home from work after i promised my boy a good whippin when his mom called, lol,dt:bliss

TrmptPraise 03-19-2008 01:46 PM
Re: Jesus made a whip
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by DividedThigh (Post 418245)
so plotting my angered whippings is good, i used to do that on the way home from work after i promised my boy a good whippin when his mom called, lol,dt:bliss
Oh I feel you there DT.....I used to get that call on the way home all the time....then spent the whole trip trying to stay mad....:ursofunny

Michael Phelps 03-19-2008 01:47 PM
Re: Jesus made a whip
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ferd (Post 418224)
clearly anger, when channeled correctly is not sinful.

Jesus took time. Plotted his actions.
In our society, that's called premeditation!

Good post, Ferd, I seriously didn't remember that passage......

Michael Phelps 03-19-2008 01:52 PM
Re: Jesus made a whip
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael Phelps (Post 418257)
In our society, that's called premeditation!

Good post, Ferd, I seriously didn't remember that passage......
Seriously, this brings up another dilemma:

How do we reconcile the scripture where Jesus clearly had intent to strike people with the following edict:

I Timothy 3:3
Not given to wine, no striker, not greedy of filthy lucre; but patient, not a brawler, not covetous;

Ferd 03-19-2008 01:58 PM
Re: Jesus made a whip
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael Phelps (Post 418268)
Seriously, this brings up another dilemma:

How do we reconcile the scripture where Jesus clearly had intent to strike people with the following edict:

I Timothy 3:3
Not given to wine, no striker, not greedy of filthy lucre; but patient, not a brawler, not covetous;
another translation says "not violent but gentle"

would an act of violence make one a violent person?

If someone were to try to hurt my child, my reaction would be quite violent. but in general, as a matter of my every day life, i am not a violent person.

would that not apply to Christ? were the money changers not doing violence to the Children of God? Was his action a protection?

DividedThigh 03-19-2008 02:00 PM
Re: Jesus made a whip
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ferd (Post 418280)
another translation says "not violent but gentle"

would an act of violence make one a violent person?

If someone were to try to hurt my child, my reaction would be quite violent. but in general, as a matter of my every day life, i am not a violent person.

would that not apply to Christ? were the money changers not doing violence to the Children of God? Was his action a protection?
it doesnt matter much to me as long as Jesus is plannin on whippn you and not me, lol,dt

Ferd 03-19-2008 02:02 PM
Re: Jesus made a whip
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by DividedThigh (Post 418283)
it doesnt matter much to me as long as Jesus is plannin on whippn you and not me, lol,dt
LOL! I do my best not to sell goats at church!

Michael Phelps 03-19-2008 02:03 PM
Re: Jesus made a whip
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ferd (Post 418280)
another translation says "not violent but gentle"

would an act of violence make one a violent person?

If someone were to try to hurt my child, my reaction would be quite violent. but in general, as a matter of my every day life, i am not a violent person.

would that not apply to Christ? were the money changers not doing violence to the Children of God? Was his action a protection?
If that's the case, does a pastor have the right to punch someone in church who is disrespecting the sanctuary, by say - chewing gum, or talking thru his sermon? What about a person who comes into the sanctuary drunk? What about someone who steals money from the Sunday School offering plate?

And, understand, I'm just opening discussion on what could be perceived as Biblical paradox.

Pressing-On 03-19-2008 02:04 PM
Re: Jesus made a whip
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael Phelps (Post 418268)
Seriously, this brings up another dilemma:

How do we reconcile the scripture where Jesus clearly had intent to strike people with the following edict:

I Timothy 3:3
Not given to wine, no striker, not greedy of filthy lucre; but patient, not a brawler, not covetous;
The Bible doesn't say that he actually hit the people. He could have used the whip for the animals.

In verse 16 He tells the sellers to get the doves out of the Temple. If he was violent against everything he would have thrown the cages down or opened them and let the doves out himself.

I believe, in accordance with scripture, he drove them out with His words and used the cords on the animals. JMO.

DividedThigh 03-19-2008 02:07 PM
Re: Jesus made a whip
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ferd (Post 418285)
LOL! I do my best not to sell goats at church!
that will probably keep you from gettin beat my brother, dt

Ferd 03-19-2008 02:12 PM
Re: Jesus made a whip
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael Phelps (Post 418288)
If that's the case, does a pastor have the right to punch someone in church who is disrespecting the sanctuary, by say - chewing gum, or talking thru his sermon? What about a person who comes into the sanctuary drunk? What about someone who steals money from the Sunday School offering plate?

And, understand, I'm just opening discussion on what could be perceived as Biblical paradox.
when said pastor can walk on water and calm the raging sea, then he is free to respond in what ever way he so chooses....

short of that, it is best for him to act with sobriety and gentleness


It should also be pointed out that Jesus' action and use of the whip (which I believe was for the money changers not the animals) only happened once in scripture.

Jesus action was also not directed at the saints but those who would do harm to the saints.... if you will.

Michael Phelps 03-19-2008 02:14 PM
Re: Jesus made a whip
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pressing-On (Post 418290)
The Bible doesn't say that he actually hit the people. He could have used the whip for the animals.

In verse 16 He tells the sellers to get the doves out of the Temple. If he was violent against everything he would have thrown the cages down or opened them and let the doves out himself.

I believe, in accordance with scripture, he drove them out with His words and used the cords on the animals. JMO.
That makes sense. It was just one of those little things that piqued my curiosity on this lovely Omaha day........

Ron 03-19-2008 02:19 PM
Re: Jesus made a whip
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pressing-On (Post 418290)
The Bible doesn't say that he actually hit the people. He could have used the whip for the animals.

In verse 16 He tells the sellers to get the doves out of the Temple. If he was violent against everything he would have thrown the cages down or opened them and let the doves out himself.

I believe, in accordance with scripture, he drove them out with His words and used the cords on the animals. JMO.
PO, if I lived in that time and I saw Jesus coming at me with righteous indignation and carry a whip, I know what I would do....



"RUN!"

Pressing-On 03-19-2008 02:23 PM
Re: Jesus made a whip
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael Phelps (Post 418312)
That makes sense. It was just one of those little things that piqued my curiosity on this lovely Omaha day........
I'm wondering also - If they were in the Court of the Gentiles, which is what I understand, did they know they shouldn't have been there "selling" in the first place? The Priest surely knew they were doing wrong by allowing it.


So.........

Pressing-On 03-19-2008 02:26 PM
Re: Jesus made a whip
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ron (Post 418327)
PO, if I lived in that time and I saw Jesus coming at me with righteous indignation and carry a whip, I know what I would do....

"RUN!"
You know He had to have had a presence about Him that made people take note.

The Bible says that after he was baptized the Holy Spirit descended on Him "like as" a dove.

Whatever was felt or seen was something very gentle.

Michael Phelps 03-19-2008 02:28 PM
Re: Jesus made a whip
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pressing-On (Post 418331)
I'm wondering also - If they were in the Court of the Gentiles, which is what I understand, did they know they shouldn't have been there "selling" in the first place? The Priest surely knew they were doing wrong by allowing it.


So.........
I don't think it was the "selling" that was the issue, it was the overcharging.....from what I've heard.

Pressing-On 03-19-2008 02:29 PM
Re: Jesus made a whip
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael Phelps (Post 418342)
I don't think it was the "selling" that was the issue, it was the overcharging.....from what I've heard.
Yes, you are right. But why were they in the court of the Gentiles selling?

Pressing-On 03-19-2008 02:31 PM
Re: Jesus made a whip
 
Quote:
Josephus (Jos. War 5, v, 2; cf. Jos. War 6, ii, 4; Jos. Antiq. 15. xi, 5; Philo Leg. 212) says: "Proceeding across this [the open court] towards the second court of the temple, one found it surrounded by a stone balustrade, three cubits high and of exquisite workmanship; in this at regular intervals stood slabs giving warning, some in Greek, others in Latin characters, of the law of purification, to wit that no foreigner was permitted to enter the holy place, for so the second enclosure of the temple was called."
Quote:
Clermont-Ganneau discovered one of these warning notices in 1871. It reads:

"No man of another nation to enter within the fence and enclosure round the temple. And whoever is caught will have himself to blame that his death ensues" (cf. Acts 21:26-30)
Well, that was simple. lol

Sam 03-19-2008 10:06 PM
Re: Jesus made a whip
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael Phelps (Post 418288)
If that's the case, does a pastor have the right to punch someone in church who is disrespecting the sanctuary, by say - chewing gum, or talking thru his sermon? What about a person who comes into the sanctuary drunk? What about someone who steals money from the Sunday School offering plate?

And, understand, I'm just opening discussion on what could be perceived as Biblical paradox.
The REAL sanctuary and the REAL house of God is a human body in whom the Spirit of God dwells. We should not defile that temple ref 1 Corinthians 6:19-20

Sam 03-19-2008 10:10 PM
Re: Jesus made a whip
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pressing-On (Post 418345)
Yes, you are right. But why were they in the court of the Gentiles selling?
Because of their contempt for the Gentiles.
It's OK to practice our money making scheme here. These are just Gentiles, second class citizens.

Offerings had to be in Jewish currency so money changers were there to provide the proper coinage but at a profit.

Sacrifices had to meet certain criteria. Animals were inspected and routinely rejected so the offerer had to buy one there at an inflated price. Later the rejected animal was probably sold to another person at a profit, of course.

The priests got a cut of the profits.

Praxeas 03-20-2008 12:28 AM
Re: Jesus made a whip
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ferd (Post 418212)
For Michael Phelps
John 2:
13 It was nearly time for the Jewish Passover celebration, so Jesus went to Jerusalem. 14 In the Temple area he saw merchants selling cattle, sheep, and doves for sacrifices; he also saw dealers at tables exchanging foreign money. 15 Jesus made a whip from some ropes and chased them all out of the Temple. He drove out the sheep and cattle, scattered the money changers’ coins over the floor, and turned over their tables. 16 Then, going over to the people who sold doves, he told them, “Get these things out of here. Stop turning my Father’s house into a marketplace!”
It doesn't actually say Jesus hit them or hit them hard enough to damage them.

Praxeas 03-20-2008 12:30 AM
Re: Jesus made a whip
 
How about this...

Mat 5:22 But I say to you that everyone who is angry with his brother will be liable to judgment; whoever insults his brother will be liable to the council; and whoever says, 'You fool!' will be liable to the hell of fire.

Mat 23:16 "Woe to you, blind guides, who say, 'If anyone swears by the temple, it is nothing, but if anyone swears by the gold of the temple, he is bound by his oath.'
Mat 23:17 You blind fools! For which is greater, the gold or the temple that has made the gold sacred?

Jesus called them fools....I know the answer....do you? :-)


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 10:49 PM.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.5
Copyright ©2000 - 2026, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.