Whoa! Polygamist solution is frightening...
 

Wow. Although I have no time to stay and discuss the issue; I would love to see a thread started about the 400+ children in Texas that have been ripped from the lives they knew.

It is ALARMING to me that the state is seeking to terminate all parental rights (from what I have read).

Prosecute crime? Yes. But aren't we also prosecuting the victims of what they were taught all their lives without outside influence to the contrary? Girls who became mothers just past puberty and knew no other way?

And what of the implications of taking all the children from their parents (not just the ones in immediate harm's way) because we don't like what is taught?

It isn't that far removed from the idea that children could be taken from homes that aren't in step with mainstream society, is it? Think on that and hug your child.

So, what's the verdict? Is Texas right or wrong to remove all of the children and seek to terminate the parents' rights to these children?

What would you do? Are you sure? What path is set for the future????

Again, I wish I had time to discuss the issue, but don't. :tissue Hopefully, some others will think and post on this. I would love to read what you all have to say.

Re: Whoa! Polygamist solution is frightening...
 

Newman,
I am hearing that they have counsel looking into their 1st Amendment rights.

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Although I think what went on is deplorable, it is scary that the government can step in and legislate what you can teach children. It may set a precedent that someday down the road we won't appreciate.

Re: Whoa! Polygamist solution is frightening...
 

I agree that there is just something not right about this -- I understand they had a complaint- but why not take the girls from say 12 to 17 into custody? I also found it very strange that Jeff Jessops was on the 10 most wanted list before he was taken into custody. To put him on the same level as terrorists????

Re: Whoa! Polygamist solution is frightening...
 

Am I right in understanding that your religious practices can't go against the law of the land? :dunno

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I guess that was my understanding. Very interesting to discuss though.

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I don't think that is what the government is trying to do. I think they are trying to keep these children from any further harm. Some of these parents allowed and facilitated the raping of their daughters. The laws of the state of Texas do not change because you are part of a relegious sect. The best way to gauge future behavior is past behavior. If they allow the other children to stay who is to say it won't happen again? And if it does oh the outcry of why didn't the state take those children while they had the chance. Rape and child molestion is a crime in Texas as in other states, it has nothing to do with their relegious freedoms.

Re: Whoa! Polygamist solution is frightening...
 

So no one minds that girls were being forced into marriage and pregnancy at a very young age, as well as being forced to marry men 5 times their age?

I define that as abuse, not "polygamy."

If an adult woman wants to choose a life of polygamy, big deal. But children should be allowed a choice, and they can't choose until they are adults.

The fact that younger men were basically ran out of the compound so the older men could have more wives, or younger wives is sickening in and of itself.

If a UPCI church or pastor was advocating the abuse of children, would anyone defend it/him?

I get the flip side of the coin--which sort of has to do with the fact that the children have been brought up this way, so it is "normal" to them. I also don't think its good for them to be separated from their mothers. There is no need for that. It's like the state is trying to detox them from their religious beliefs and polygamist lifestyle. That part is a bit frightening. But I agree with the part about protecting these young girls from early marriage and pregnancy.

Re: Whoa! Polygamist solution is frightening...
 

I tend to agree with you, cneasttx. I don't care what religion you are--if you break the law, you should bear the consequences. These people are breaking the laws of the land by practicing polygamy. That's bad enough, IMO. However, the fact that they are abusing children takes it to another level, and I am not all that sympathetic, even though I do understand that these children are suffering trauma right now from being separated from their parents and "normal" home life.

Norman, would you have the same worries about children who were brought up in a community that used them for child pornography? I would think they ought to be removed from that situation, regardless of whether the child understands that they are being abused.

We're not talking about people doing something because the Bible commands them to do it (marry multiple wives and very young girls). We're talking about people practicing a preference they feel is allowed by scripture and breaking laws and abusing children in the process. That does not fall in line with something that should be defended as religious freedom.

Re: Whoa! Polygamist solution is frightening...
 

I agree MissB, the mother's should be allowed their children, but not if they are going to subject them to this abuse in the future. The mothers need help as much as the children.

Re: Whoa! Polygamist solution is frightening...
 

According to CNN.com, mothers with children 5 and under were allowed to remain with their children.

Re: Whoa! Polygamist solution is frightening...
 

Maybe the fact that the mothers allow it to happen to them is why they are being taken from them too. Just for discussion's sake.

I would dare say a child placed in a foster home where the foster dad was abusing them would be left there.

Re: Whoa! Polygamist solution is frightening...
 

I'm sure this is the case. Even though this group is openly breaking the law by practicing polygamy, I don't think the state would have even lifted a finger if there were no underage girls being forced into marriage and pregnancy.

This is probably a sad fact. I wish CPS could be overhauled somehow.

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Yes, but I wonder if any other state has had the problem on this scale before. A lot of scarred children from being left in harm's way. So sad.

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Breaks your heart and they really know nothing different. That makes it double scary for them.

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Frankly, I'm glad they are finally stepping in and trying to do something. I've been following this story for more than a year. They've tried several times to investigate and have just hit brick walls, including local police who didn't really want to interfere.

I'm also glad that they seem to be trying to use as gentle an approach as possible. Things could have gone a LOT worse in this raid.

Re: Whoa! Polygamist solution is frightening...
 

My first reaction to seeing this was similar to Newmans...I think. It was horrifying to think of the situation, the torment these children went through, and worse, the torment they will be going through by being exposed to something different than what they were taught all their lives. (On a much smaller scale, I feel I can relate to them a bit because of my past, and sitting under a pastor with cult-like tendencies. I can relate to their fears.) My heart just ached for them.

And at the same time, the thought lurking deep in my brain: what kind of precedence will this set for ALL religious communities? It certainly is a troubling thought.

I would have to say though, it seems that our laws stem from religious convictions. We are still considered a 'religious' country. I can't see us coming to a place where we would need to fear anything as long as our religious practices don't go against the laws of the land. And with a country that was founded on religious freedom, I just can't imagine any laws being formed that would violate the Christian foundation.

There just seems to be no easy solution to what has taken place. I know they couldn't just go in and arrest all the men that were breaking the laws because they just didn't have any proof. I sure hope they get that proof!

Re: Whoa! Polygamist solution is frightening...
 

I think that is what took so long for the state to act. Finding a way to save the children and have enough evidence to arrest and prosecute the men. But it is not about relegious practices or biblical principles at all, it is about (property, the children) being molested and raped and inpregnated to propagate their polygamy practices. And if left to continue somewhere down the line incest is going to play a part in this also. And I think this will set some precedents that will cause real relegious and parental rights to be violated as well.

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The sad part about the bolded - we are quickly moving away from being a Chrisitan nation. More and more of our "Christian" values are being stripped away because of "political correctness."

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I also think that maybe the state of Texas didn't want another Waco incident.

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To borrow a Biblical term, I think this is the "beginning of sorrows.'

Have any of you been paying attention to the California court's ruling that parents cannot home school their children unless they are state-certified?

More and more it seems government is defining what is religiously acceptable. That is alarming to me.

And, of course, I believe what was going on down there was deplorable.

Re: Whoa! Polygamist solution is frightening...
 

They would argue it is not about relegion (the state I mean). But it is truly about parental rights in this instance. One of my daughters-in-law home schools her teenage daughter and doesn't vaccinate her babies either. You cannot attend public school in Texas if you aren't vaccinated. I remember when I was a kid going with my Mom to a Baptist church to sign a petition to keep prayer in public schools. Didn't happen but some Christians tried.

Re: Whoa! Polygamist solution is frightening...
 

Faith is being put in a box.

Legislators, and the judiciary, are become very heavy-handed.

Look, I can't stand Hilary's policies. But she had some great responses to Barak's condescension toward religion this past week. She actually stated that he thinks religion and faith is a convenient crutch.

She went on to say that she believes the vast majority of Americans are faith-fiilled because their faith 'defines" them, not because it is a flag to wave at a convenient time.

Many American secularists just don't get that. And so they try to legislate faith into a smaller and smaller, very inconspicuous little box.

Re: Whoa! Polygamist solution is frightening...
 

And that is why these events are accepted with very little public outcry.

Re: Whoa! Polygamist solution is frightening...
 

Along the same vein............ Several states have now implemented newborn testing for things such as cystic fibrosis, autism, PKU, hemoglobinopathy, etc. Whether these tests are a good thing or not is not my issue. In fact, I know of a couple that because of such required testing is now prepared to fight a potential deadly disease with knowledge and understanding. Finding out early has been a blessing - but for whatever reason, maybe some people would choose not to have such testing done on their newborn.

Several months ago there was news of a newborn baby being taken from a home because the parents didn't allow their newborn the testing that had recently become law in Nebraska. The police came into the home and took the baby from the arms of his 12 year old brother. The baby had never had a bottle - and was in the habit of nursing every couple of hours or so.... They stated religious reasons for not having the testing done. That baby was kept away from his parents and siblings for over a week! That is WRONG!

Sorry folks......... even though there are some things that are good for us - the government FORCING us to do these things is slowly but surely taking away our rights. I'm all for safety - I buckle my seatbelt every time I get in the car, I think helmets for motorcycle riders make sense, I think that helmets for children on bicycles makes sense - but something deep inside me believes that by passing such laws and not allowing me to make that decision for myself (and/or my children) is slowing desensitizing us to how much control the government has now and how much more it is trying to get.

I know I'm not stating my thoughts very coherently - much less eloquently - but the bottom line is that slowly but surely "Big Brother" is not only watching everything I do and say, but he is gaining more and more control over what I do or say.

Re: Whoa! Polygamist solution is frightening...
 

That's Warren Jeffs, and yes, to put him on the ten most wanted list was a bit on the extreme side.

Doesn't make me too comfortable, actually.

Re: Whoa! Polygamist solution is frightening...
 

Not exactly. For instance, it's law that your children be vaccinated, but you can obtain religious exemption and not have them vaccinated.

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Were these crimes the reason he was on the list?

Re: Whoa! Polygamist solution is frightening...
 

Not sure what crimes you are referring to.

He was wanted in connection with marrying off young girls to older men. Not sure how many counts he has against him.

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However, on CNN, I heard that the mothers COULD have stayed with their children, had they gone to the shelter/safe house with them. From what I understood the mothers decided to go back to the compound WITHOUT their children.

GOD BLESS!
Bro. Alex

Re: Whoa! Polygamist solution is frightening...
 

Okay I will look it up under the public records in Texas.

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Actually, they wanted the women to go to a separate women's shelter (without their children), so the women chose to go home instead. (They were allowed to choose home or the shelter.)

"A group of women from a polygamist sect's Texas ranch returned to the compound Monday after authorities separated them from the 400-plus children now in state custody...mothers of children 5 and older were told they could not remain with the children but could go back to the ranch or to a women's shelter." www.cnn.com

Re: Whoa! Polygamist solution is frightening...
 

Although the laws says what the law says, I find this entire issue and the responses of Christian people troubling when compared to what God allowed and in some cases commanded in the Old Testament.

Again I'm not speaking American law here. According to Jewish traditions children are considered adults at the age of 13, thus the reason for the coming of age ceremonies that is the custom of the Jewish people since they left Egypt (if not before). Even as late as the 19th century right here in America it was common practice to marry off the daughters while they were yet teens (as these young ladies are) Although I haven't studied it out for myself, but I understand that Mary, the mother of Jesus, was probably in her early teens, possibly as young as 12 when she gave birth to the Lord. If that is the case, at what age does God say a child becomes a young adult?

As far as polygamy, just by reading the old testament it's plain to see that God permits the practice, and in at least one occation in the law, it is a command. "If your brother dies without children then you are to take his wife as your own and raise up children unto your brother" As God was dealing with David over the adultry and murder concidering Bathsheba, God said to David "if you had asked for more wives, would not I have given them to you" at this time David already had multiple wives. There is nowhere in scripture where God says that polygomy is no longer permitted. There are two scriptures in the new testament that state "man of one wife", but both of those references are about leadership in the church. One is talking about the office of Bishop, and the other the office of Deacon. Men desiring those positions need to be able to display their leadership qualities, which having a family in control speaks to, but also not too much responsability at home to prevent them from fullfilling the desired office.

Another common practice was arranged marriages. Just this weekend I talked to a Jewish man that is in an arranged marriage 25 years strong, arranged by the grandparents of both him and his wife. It is a marriage by God himself. After 25 years he can't remember having a serious disagreement with his wife, yes a small one here or there but nothing serious. I've gone through a divorce, and although I do not regret any time that I had with the wife of my youth, I think that I would have been spared the trouble that I had in marriage if I had my parents arrange my marriage for me. As crass as it sounds, young people think with their hormones, while their parents look at the big picture and have the experience to see the possible problems before they even begin. I'm trying to think of a biblical reference to a marriage that comes close to what we currently have, the closest two that I can think of is 1)where Sampson asked his parents to get Delilah for him. Although, his parents disaproved of this, they relented and got Delilah for him. 2)Jacob in his deisre of Rachel, but he had to marry Leah to get the prise he wanted, but Jacob was making the deals with the gils' father and not the girls themselves. So even those examples are still arranged marriages. There may in fact be example of marriages simular to what we currently have, but I'm just not thinking of any with clear biblical references.

Too often we look at things through the eye of our society, and not through the eyes of what God did and does say about it. Contrary to popular belief, American laws and society do not reflect Gods law or what he has allowed to insure that every woman has a good man to cling to (whether or not he has another wife besides)

But American Law says some things different, and that's the law of the land. But I don't understand the outcry from Christians about this practice when it's no different that what was practiced in the Bible.

Daniel

Re: Whoa! Polygamist solution is frightening...
 

Got news for you. not all were run out some have brought complaint that they have been raped by these men as well. Not from this new incident but from past incidents. Jeffs and his brother were accused by their own cousin of raping him as a young man.

Re: Whoa! Polygamist solution is frightening...
 

You make some valid points, but there is absolutely NO WAY I would let my daughter marry at 13. She's twelve now and has a good future ahead of her, once she gets through high school and college. The simple truth is that many things have changed for women since the Bible was written, and I don't think it would be fair to try to apply those practices today.

I can see how important parental involvement in marriage decisions is, and plan on being actively involved in my children's choices for a spouse. However, the choice will be theirs to make, not mine. If I feel one of them is making a mistake I have every intention of getting right in their way, and I am very good at getting in their way if they are making a mistake.

Bottom line is that women have gained a lot of ground since Bible days. Also, for every successful arranged marriage I am sure there is at least one where the people involved never loved each other, never bonded, and never got to experience that bond that married people share.

Lastly, we are not talking about young girls marrying young boys. We are talking about men old enough to be a young girl's grandfather! That's wrong, I don't care who you are! It infuriates me to think of a man in his 50s marrying a girl of 13! It's child molestation, plain and simple! There's more to being unequally yoked than just marriages between saved and unsaved people.

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Yes, I heard/read that as well. :(

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Daniel If I remember right no young lady in the Bible was ever FORCED to marry an older man. At least none that were in accord with God.
These men are going against the laws of this country by forcing marriages and sex onto young girls. I think Christians in this country have a right to be angered by what went on. I personally think America has been far to relaxed in dealing with this group. Personally I believe these men to be perverted pedophiles. They use their religion to practice it. Maybe Israel did marry their children young but that was a whole differnt place and time. Some countries may still practice it but we do not practice it here and since it is not against any God given laws then they should follow the law. I am afraid I would probably want to kill any man or woman that forced themselves onto my child. Any that comes asking me to marry my child to them is going to get similar treatment.

notice I didn't say I would but I certainly would want to.

Re: Whoa! Polygamist solution is frightening...
 

I am assuming you are a man by your name, go figure. So you are saying that God condones rape of children? The parents didn't arrange the (marriages), Mr. Jeffs did although apparently the parents went along with it.
If he arranged marriages between adults it would be different. And of course he got rid of the young boys so there wouldn't be any hormonal problems as you referred to, but rather older men lusting after young girls, but of course they were only doing it to propagate polygamy and God's laws. Is that your argument? Or did I miss something?

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I completely agree with you, Rico. I know that our religious freedoms are being infringed upon a little bit more every day, but this is one instance when the [state/federal] government NEEDED to step in, IMO. The local law enforcement has been practically useless.

My oldest daughter is now 12, and she is nowhere NEAR ready for marriage or sex. Not physically, mentally or emotionally. As a mother, I cannot IMAGINE or comprehend what kind of parent would want their child involved in sex or, worse, pregnancy at such an immature stage. Brainwashing and ignorance aside, I feel as much distaste for the mothers of these girls as I do for the men in this sect. I understand that many of them probably grew up the same way and its "all they've known", but there has to be something called common sense.

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Mr. Jeffs was on the top 10 most wanted by the FBI because of sex crimes in Utah and Arizona.