Can't we all just get along?
 

I wrote this on another Forum in reply to the question “Is AFF down again?” I answered “Yes” and then I wrote (this is an edited version):


Is the problem indicative of what’s really wrong with AFF? A few weeks ago there was a mass exodus of those who did not like the direction the Forum was going in. Too liberal! Too "inclusive"! So they left as they felt they should. Things settled down. I was encouraged by the "new breeze blowing" at AFF. No fighting...no name calling. But... storm clouds were massing on the horizon.

All too quickly... storm winds began tossing the Forum about. Fussing... arguing, debating over... well, over anything and everything. Business as usual, you might say, but only to an extent. This new round of storms is different. Its not about UPC vs. WPF. Its not about standards/non-standards. Not about women preachers, pro/con. The current storms stem from a major storm... between one steppers and three steppers. But, as storms do, its building... evolving becoming more than just a discussion or debate. It is becoming as Paul said, a cannibalistic smorgasbord. "Gal 5:15 But if ye bite and devour one another, take heed that ye be not consumed one of another." We have no one left to fight but each other. We can't fight the Trinnies, we keep them beat away with our ungodly "All Trinitarians are lost" mentality. The "ultra cons" have weathered their last storm and sailed to what they think is a safer port. So... who do we have to fight? Each other. And, we're getting really good at it. Our slogan is "Win at any cost!". Doesn't matter who is hurt, what friendships are harmed, what fellowship is broken. Doesn’t matter. Because the FIGHT is more important than someone I'll never meet. Besides, they're nothing more than a blip on my computer screen. Why would I care about such trivial things as feelings? If my words hurt... so what? I have the RIGHT to say and do as I please.

I'm old fashioned I guess. Archaic. Obsolete. But I believe my fellowship with a brother in sister in the Lord is more important than my RIGHT to rub their nose in what I disagree with them about. I'm from the old school that taught we should seek what we agree with our brother about, and minimize those things on which we disagree. I take my cue from an old-fashioned, archaic and obsolete Book that says Eph 4:3 Endeavoring to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace. We don't even try. I looked up the word Endeavor in a dictionary and found that it comes from two words which means "Duty" and "To try". It is OUR duty to try to keep UNITY in the Body of Christ. Unity isn’t just some “warm and fuzzy” word, it’s a reality for God’s true church. But, we don't even try. We don't even put forth the effort. Why? Because UNITY is boring. To be truly united in the Body would mean I would have to get out of my comfort zone and start doing what God called me to do. You know. Preach the Gospel. Heal the sick. Baptize folks in Jesus Name. And, most uncomfortable of all... pray. Really pray until I hear from heaven. No... its much more comfortable (and fun!) to sit here at my computer and fight with my brother or sister in the Lord. Oh, maybe not really enter the fray... maybe just sit back and watch the blood fly.

No, can't do that either because I seem to remember something Paul wrote. Rom 1:32 Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them. What were some of these "such things" Paul was writing about? Homosexuality. And unrighteousness. And DEBATE. Among other things.

Currently, the fighting is about the differing views among those (like me) who hold to the old PCI view of salvation and those brethren that hold to the PAJC view. Lets stop for a minute. Lets move beyond the doctrines and consider the spirit that motivated the brethren back then to bring these two opposing views together. What kind of spirit would bring about a merger of this magnitude back in '45? Some would say "COMPROMISE!" Do we really think that? Or was it that these brethren knew there is strength in numbers? That they really had a yearning for fellowship with other Oneness people? And that they really needed each other? Their love for the brethren prompted them to "compromise" a little in favor of spiritual communion with their brethren. Their spirit was undoubtedly one of humbleness. Of love. Of unity. Mostly, it was the Spirit of Christ.

As I close this rambling post (that will no doubt go unread and un-noticed) I'm reminded of another verse of Scripture. Taken, admittedly, out of context somewhat, but, bear with me: Mat 23:23 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier [matters] of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone. In our quest for "doctrinal correctness", are we doing the same thing the Pharisees were doing? Are we so busy with pigeon-holing TRUTH that we are omitting "the weightier matters" of God's Word? In out defense of what we believe to be truth, are we killing off our "spiritual man" by debating and infighting with our brother? As we bite and devour one another...are we consuming our own selves? Are we destroying the very TRUTH we are trying to uphold?

This isn't directed at any one individual other than myself. I pray daily that God will help me to maintain a right spirit toward my brother. I pray He will quench my human spirit and fill me with His. I'd rather have a right spirit than a right doctrine. Because that right spirit will lead and guide me to the right doctrine. And it doesn’t really matter how right I am doctrinally, if my spirit is wrong, then I am wrong. And...I’ve been thinking that maybe its time to move on. Its not encouraging at all to come here and find yet another senseless argument that serves, not God’s purpose, but the devils. We have plenty of common ground upon which to build fellowship and friendships. I have enjoyed a little of both for a while now. But, because I take no pleasure in watching the implosion of fellowship within the Body of Christ, I find myself wondering just why I come here. .

Re: Can't we all just get along?
 

Brother OA, once again you have given us a post that is both heart-felt and thought provoking.

I for one, know that I personally have been guilty in the past of putting my quest for the "right answer" above all else, including most importantly my relationship with God. Until I eventually reached a place where I realized that I knew where I stood on so many different issues, but that I no longer had any idea who Jesus even was.

Many now would consider me to be doctrinally bankrupt, and I can't necessarily argue with that label. It seems this search for Jesus takes up the bulk of my thoughts now.

Re: Can't we all just get along?
 

The big difference between the old time PCI folks and today's breed of one stepper is that many of them believe that baptism is optional, along with HG infilling. Included in that group are those who do not believe that HG infilling is evidenced by speaking in tongues. Many of today's one steppers more closely align their beliefs with what the denominal world believes. That, my friend, is what is causing all the arguments. From what I have read, there was a time when you could not tell the difference between PCI folks' preaching and PAJC folks' preaching, because the PCI folks preached baptism and speaking in tongues as much as the PAJC folks did.

Re: Can't we all just get along?
 

OA, great post and I totally agree. I think that some genuinely enjoy arguing, and some even think it is funny.

Personally, I find it to be very counter-productive and divisive. If you are truly trying to convince someone of your position, OK, but I don't think that will ever be achieved by hurling insults back and forth. And I think the Bible speaks of it being inadvisable to continue in pointless repetition.

Arguing for the sake of arguing is something I will never understand. I have enough tension in my real life without needing to add to it.

Re: Can't we all just get along?
 

Oh, I don't know... I don't think you're as bankrupt as some might think. In fact, I think you are transitioning from knowing ABOUT Jesus to really knowing Him. As I read your post, I thought of Peter. He had been in the Lord's inner circle. He was given the "keys of the Kingdom" when He declared his revelation that Jesus was the Son of the Living God. He ate with Jesus, slept beside Him and walked on water with Him. He defended Jesus at His arrest. But...

,,, when Jesus was gone and buried, Peter was one of the first to turn away. He said, "Im going fishing..." (John 21). But Peter found it wasn't so easy to walk away from the Lord and return to his old life. Peter "transitioned" from following the Lord from afar to being a leader of men. (Mat 26:58)

I think you, too, are transitioning from what religion tried to make you into what God intends for you. Keep searching... its those that seek who find!

Re: Can't we all just get along?
 

If we had a few hundred posters with this attitude, we wouldn't have the problems on this forum that we do now.

Re: Can't we all just get along?
 

Once again you have posted an awesome post that gives us food for thought. Thank you. I appreciate you and your words of wisdom.

Daniel

Re: Can't we all just get along?
 

I totally agree with your observations in your post, but it begs the question, is debating a "bad thing"?
Yes, often certain subjects come up and it is akin to a huge school of piranha attacking a wounded cow (and as Dave Larson "Far Side" once said, "why is the 'cow' always a unit of measurement of how fast something can be eaten?"). But my reply to that insite is that so often debate and "question" is not allowed in church, thus when given the opportunity, people will ask, argue, and debate, like a dam suddenly bursting. That is perhaps a much greater "behind the scenes" issue.

Re: Can't we all just get along?
 

Debate is good. If people can treat each other with respect.

Debating with a bad attitude is bad. :D

Re: Can't we all just get along?
 

I don't agree with alot of folks here doctrinally ,but I don't feel the need to insult people.
I do enjoy friendly debate but slug-fests I detest.

Re: Can't we all just get along?
 

Bah. Humbug.





















J/K. Good post.

Re: Can't we all just get along?
 

One A,

Excellent observation and excellent posts!

I awoke early this morning with the thought on my mind to have a cease fire around here and bumped your Bibilical Forum Rules in hopes that we can get back on track around here!

Thanks for your insightful post!

Re: Can't we all just get along?
 

I wish this was about the W/S vs PCI doctrine. that is an easy one.

We have lived together for nearly a century. I have been involved in those debates on line from the old Faithchild days... we survived.

I do agree with you 1A. we can and should get along.

we can even do that and have a discussion about it. we have done it and can do it and be civil.

but the problem of late has not been about the debate. It is about a handfull of people trying to make W/S into heresy.

let me be spicific. when I called for the debate to be about the issue, and for us to get along, the following was the response:

if someone will get that group to change their minds and accept the notion that W/S people are not of the devil, purvors of witchcraft, impossible to live with, and foreign entanglements, then we can have the debate and be civil.

Re: Can't we all just get along?
 

I agree Bro. Ferd and for someone to imply one step view folks don't study or care about doctrinal integrity or doctrinal purity just isn't true as well.
A person must know what they believe and why they believe ,if we take a doctrinal slant then we had best be prepared to defend that slant with the word.

Re: Can't we all just get along?
 

Well, is debate such a good thing? Well, yes and no. I find Scripture that says, no, debate is not a good thing. Romans 1:29 for starters. And Isa 58:4 Behold, ye fast for strife and debate, and to smite with the fist of wickedness: ye shall not fast as [ye do this] day, to make your voice to be heard on high.

Debate is a good thing, though. Without it, Congress would do less than it does. So, really, debate is good. Its the purpose behind the debate that often makes it bad. The intent of the heart. Now if I debate with a brother in a cordial friendly manner to help him to see that I am right (and he is wrong- TIC), that in and of itself is good. But if I, as Isaiah put it, debate "to smite with the fist" (figuratively speaking) or to get my voice "to be heard on high", then thats not so good. And that is all I've been hearing lately. Smiting fists and high voices that accomplishes nothing productive.

Re: Can't we all just get along?
 

I think debate and discussion isn't the problem - - it's the attitudes and defensiveness that takes things the wrong way.

Re: Can't we all just get along?
 

Has it gotten worse???? And I haven't even been here??? IT WASN'T ME!!!

lol

Re: Can't we all just get along?
 

This is true, Ferd. Very true.

Re: Can't we all just get along?
 

Re: Can't we all just get along?
 

You know, I've been in and around the Apostolic Movement since the 70's. Took a short excursion into the murky waters of Branhamism, but wound my way back to the Apostolic Faith. Been there ever since. Wouldn't change a thing. The funny thing is. I never heard of the differences between 1 steppers and 3 steppers. Never thought about it. Until I came to forums like this.

Now, I have always believed that sins were forgiven at repentance. If one dies at that stage, I felt (and still do) they are ready to go. That does not negate the need for, and the necessity of, Acts 2:38 and Acts 2:4. The 2 baptisms are necessary (IMV) to continue in salvation. To me, the "old man" dies at repentance and is buried at water baptism. It is the dividing line betwen my old life of sin and my new life in Christ. Once I recieve knowledge that I need to be baptized then I should do so. Same with the HG. And anything else God's Word tells me.

We differ. Big deal. But, as I see it, we both believe in the Plan of Salvation. Have a different perspective, but we both believe it nontheless. Now those who might minimize the need for the HG are just selling themselves short. He is our OVERCOMING POWER. How could we ever expect to make it through this world without God's Spirit dwelling in our hearts? My view on John 3 is a little different than most. I've alluded to it a couple of times here, but its no biggie. I believe John 3 EXACTLY as I understand Jesus taught it. 3 spiritual births. But all that aside, the most important thing is this: If I label myself as a Christian, then I should act like one. And that means, in a very large part, treating my brother (or sister) how I want to be treated. With respect. With kindness. With love.

Re: Can't we all just get along?
 

well, I can promise you this. I will remain defensive so long as there is a reason too.

Some things are worth fighting for. and beleive it or not, but we are the ones fighting for unity.

Re: Can't we all just get along?
 

Of course and I didn't mean not to defend what you believe!!!

Re: Can't we all just get along?
 

A BIG problem occurs when someone gives an "innocent" post with a hidden barb then is dishonest about what their post actually means.

No patience for that.

I agree, Ferd.

Re: Can't we all just get along?
 

Great posts, 1A...:thumbsup

Re: Can't we all just get along?
 

Bro your words are always full of wisdom. I would like to share this i received from a friend today. I thought it an was Amazing video!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1JiJzqXxgxo

Re: Can't we all just get along?
 

I LOVE it!

So the crow is the 3 steppers and the cat is the one steppers? LOL!!!!

Of course, maybe the crow was feeding the cat to fatten her up for the kill - - ooops, sorry that ruins the good side of this, huh?

Re: Can't we all just get along?
 

Preserving the relationship is more important than being right.:kickcanExcellent post.

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I really don't know what label they would have. I just was so Amazed !:gaga
truth be told it really brought tears to my eyes. :tissue

Re: Can't we all just get along?
 

Do you think a lot of people are right fighter's Rhoni? By that I mean I am right no matter who I hurt, who I lose a relationship with?

Re: Can't we all just get along?
 

If it wasn't for this forum, I would have never known there were a such thing as one-steppers! I never knew the details of that AWESOME merger that created UPCI.

I was raised in a "stricter-than-UPCI" small, Apostolic church in DC. I have fellowshipped with UPCI since 1996 in Japan, Florida, Alabama, MD and NC.

I never knew that there were Christians who believed in Salvation by faith in Jesus Christ with the necessity of water baptism in JESUS' name, as the scriptures demonstrate.

But I came here, and found others who believe like I'm coming to believe-- I believe this site is a Godsend! I have been praying for a couple of years for direction concerning my beliefs, how I was raised and how I read the scriptures now.

Yes I still have questions, but if it wasn't for the discussions here, (and the willing GODLY participants) where would I go to ask these questions?

"Iron sharpens iron," the Bible says. I am glad for the discussion and debate. I hope we can all keep the right spirit throughout our discussions and interaction.

Mike D.

Re: Can't we all just get along?
 

Bro. Mike, good to see you posting, been praying for you!

Re: Can't we all just get along?
 

Love is the greatest sign of being a christian...

Re: Can't we all just get along?
 

This is why these discusions are so important. It causes people to really think instead of being lemmins. <sp>