Praxeas & Company (Thief Saved?/Baptism Essential)
 

Praxeas,


My responses are in blue, followed by your comments, but you would have figured that out! LOL

Quote:

Originally Posted by Praxeas (Post 455780) Is his faithfulness universal towards everyone? Can God see your faithfulness before being baptized or can He only see it AT baptism?

His mercy is for whosoever will, his faithfulness is extended to the believer, and from what the bible shows me, those that are in process of believing the truth.

In regards to the death bed prayer. There's no telling how many times the ill rejected Christ prior. I do believe if a backslidden individual was holyghost filled and Jesus name baptized, and is on his/hers death bed and confesses his/hers sins, God is just to forgive them, and they'll be saved.

If the sinner can repent, get baptized and received the holyghost while near death, praise the Lord.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Praxeas (Post 455780) What about those that died NOT having heard Acts 2:38 preached yet? What does God's faithfulness do for them?

If you're willing to speculate how God kept the Eunuch from harm or death through the desert to complete the salvation process, I'll speculate to the comment above.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Praxeas (Post 455780) BTW what about the thief on the cross? What saved Him? Obdience to the Law? Hardly since he was a thief.

If I must, let me school you about the thief on the cross. Many folks claim baptism is optional due to the thief's experience. I respectfully state there's a lack of understanding on their behalf. Please read the following carefully.


The faith required for salvation of the NEW COVENANT believers wasn't required for the thief. Romans 10:9 reads we must believe God raised Jesus from the dead. The thief couldn't have believed this, seeing Jesus hadn't died yet, much less raised from the dead.


If you utilize the thief as an example of salvation with-out baptism, I could easily utilize the thief as an example to proclaim salvation with-out scripture faith. :laffatu


Even if I was a one-stepper, I would have to admit the thief's salvation is completely different from mine. I must believe God raised Jesus from the dead (Romans 10:9), this wasn't a requirement for the thief. :toofunny


There are many scriptures that teach baptism is essential for salvation (e.g., Acts 22:16, 1Peter 3:21, etc.). The thief's salvation contradicts these scriptures for NEW COVENANT believers. The thief's salvation process is irrelevant to ours.



Praxeas, during the life of Jesus, He forgave various folks of their sins (e.g., Mark 2, John 8). The thief's classification of forgiveness granted is the same forgiveness these other folks were granted. The sins Jesus forgave where not under the terms of the NEW COVENANT, seeing it wasn't effective until Jesus died.



During our life, we have the ability to give our possessions or forgiveness to family members, friends, etc. Yet, after our death, these same family members or friends must comply and meet the terms of our WILL to inherit our possessions, etc.


BY THIS SAME METHOD JESUS FORGAVE THE SINS OF THIS THIEF, WHILE ALIVE ON EARTH. WHILE ALIVE ON EARTH HE FREELY GAVE FORGIVENESS OF SINS.


After the crucification and death of Jesus, his forgiveness was given to whosoever will obey the terms and conditions of His Will. Those terms required are listed in Acts 2:38, repentance and baptism in Jesus name, for the REMISSION of sins! Forever oh Lord, thy word is established in Earth as is in heaven.

Class is over and no running in the hallways. :happydance

Re: Praxeas & Company (Thief Saved?/Baptism Essent
 

Im not many folks. I never said because of this baptism is optional. I never said baptism was optional.

If the thief was saved WITHOUT Jesus then why would anyone need Jesus. IF anyone could have been saved without Jesus before He died then what is the point? Jesus came so that we CAN be saved. Abraham was justified by faith.

That was the point. The Thief and others were saved and yet not baptized. Why? If they can be saved prior to Jesus coming by some other means then we don't need Jesus.

BTW the Thief seems to have believed Jesus would live forever...hanging there on the cross sure to die the Thief said "when you come into your kingdom, remember me"

Their faith was always forward looking to the time Jesus would die. In fact Paul specifically says that WE believers are sons of Abraham.
Abraham preceded the law

Gal 3:5 Does he who supplies the Spirit to you and works miracles among you do so by works of the law, or by hearing with faith--
Gal 3:6 just as Abraham "believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness"?
Gal 3:7 Know then that it is those of faith who are the sons of Abraham.

God preached the gospel to Abraham
Gal 3:8 And the Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel beforehand to Abraham, saying, "In you shall all the nations be blessed."

Nothing said about a different kind of faith. Nobody was saved under the law BY doing the works of the law.
Gal 3:9 So then, those who are of faith are blessed along with Abraham, the man of faith.

Gal 3:10 For all who rely on works of the law are under a curse; for it is written, "Cursed be everyone who does not abide by all things written in the Book of the Law, and do them
Gal 3:11 Now it is evident that no one is justified before God by the law, for "The righteous shall live by faith."
Gal 3:12 But the law is not of faith, rather "The one who does them shall live by them."

God made a covenant with Abraham that was not removed by the law of Moses
Gal 3:17 This is what I mean: the law, which came 430 years afterward, does not annul a covenant previously ratified by God, so as to make the promise void.

God gave Abraham a promise, by faith Abraham received it before the Law
Gal 3:18 For if the inheritance comes by the law, it no longer comes by promise; but God gave it to Abraham by a promise.

Gal 3:29 And if you are Christ's, then you are Abraham's offspring, heirs according to promise.

These people had faith. It was their faith that was important and the reason they received the promise. But the Promise they did not receive until after Jesus died, but they died long before Jesus came

Heb 11:13 These all died in faith, not having received the things promised, but having seen them and greeted them from afar, and having acknowledged that they were strangers and exiles on the earth.

Even though Christ was not born yet Moses is said to consider the reproach of Christ greater wealth than the treasures of Egypt
Heb 11:24 By faith Moses, when he was grown up, refused to be called the son of Pharaoh's daughter,
Heb 11:25 choosing rather to be mistreated with the people of God than to enjoy the fleeting pleasures of sin.
Heb 11:26 He considered the reproach of Christ greater wealth than the treasures of Egypt, for he was looking to the reward.

The thief had faith in Jesus. That is obvious from the context of the conversation on the cross. The thief was repentant as well.

You will note the verse you quoted does not mention baptism but believing. Had the thief NOT died he would have had to be baptized in obedience to the word. My whole point is that the thief was not saved by the works of the law...not by being baptized....but by faith in Christ. That does not prove anyone can be saved and not be baptized. Baptism is a biblical command. But this proves that what really matters is faith. In the OT it was faith. In the NT it was faith...in the OT they all died without yet receiving the promises yet, but they were promised to them nevertheless.

ABraham had faith and was justified by faith but he still had to obey God and leave his family and cut ties with them and enter the new land.

Once again I never said baptism is not essential for salvation. Second, how was the thief saved? Who saved him and why?

By faith. They were forgiven by faith, not by works. Not by doing the law. Not by burning a ram. That is the main point, Nobody was saved by works before. They still had to keep the law, but this thief never had time to go run to the temple and make sacrifices. He obviously was not a good law keeper...being a thief. They still needed to keep the law and we still need to be baptized, but this shows an exception.

Because the thief had FAITH.

As I said before, everyone needs to be baptized, but there are exceptions.

Another example. You are arguing that a person is not forgiven of their sins until baptized...not at repentance. That means they are still sinners...in their sin...their vessels are "dirty" as it were. Yet God gave the Gentiles the Holy Ghost before they were forgiven. According to Paul the Spirit is what saves us

2Th 2:13 But we are bound to give thanks always to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:

When you get baptized for forgiveness of sins you might still need to have your sins forgiven after that. Baptism is a one time thing. But it's the continued presence of the Spirit after that saves us right?

This is the HOLY Spirit. These gentiles did not have their sins forgiven and acts 2:38 if we are going to be literalists and absolutists then we must repent and be baptized before being filled with the Spirit. But God clearly chose fit to make an exception to that.

I have to ask what about those that receive the Spirit and speak in tongues in the Trinitarian churches? Did they receive the Holy Spirit or not? What did they receive? And yet all this time so many of them are still sin stained...their souls presumably in darkness even though the Spirit of the Father of Lights is inside them? Or what is it? What do they have?

Can God forgive sins at Repentance and give them the Spirit so to lead them hopefully to greater truth?

Re: Praxeas & Company (Thief Saved?/Baptism Essent
 

Can you please quote my comment about the thief being saved without Jesus? Why was the beggar carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom? (Luke 16:22-24) What sent the rich man to a tormenting hell? Who SAVED the beggar from a tormenting hell, Jesus, Buddha, or the Power Rangers?



What gospel did God preach, "in you all nations shall be blessed?" Is that the gospel you speak about? :toofunny



Praxeas, let me explain again. Romans 10:9 reads we MUST believe God raised Jesus from the dead. This is a REQUIREMENT. This belief wasn't required of the thief, reason being Jesus hadn't died yet, much less raised from death. It's clearly evident the thief was under the old dispensation, which didn't require water baptism.


What did the sacrificial sin offerings in the Old Testament signify? What did those sacrifices accomplish?


Your honor, I object to that comment, due to pure speculation! Praxeas, the judge will find you contemp for speculation. :happydance

The fact is this thief could have been baptized under the baptism of John (that point is still mute) and been a backslider. Your comment about the thief being baptized if he hadn't died is pure speculation.





You see that? You just contradicted yourself with both comments above! You said "baptism is a biblical command" and "everyone NEEDS to be baptized," but there's exceptions?

If baptism is biblical as you stated above, then not obeying this command is violating God's own command! Would God violate His own law Praxeas?


Let me share a few scriptures with you:

"if you love me, keep my commandments," John 14:15, 21.


"For this is the love of God that we keep His commandments, and His
commandments are not grievous," I John 5:3.

"And this is love, that we walk after His commandments," 2 John 6.


We must keep God's commandments if we love him, which includes baptism as you plainly stated, thanks!

By the way, there was not exceptions with the thief. Jesus forgave the thief before He died. The thief was under the old dispensation which didn't require baptism, but blood atonement.






God required animal sacrifices that man could receive forgiveness for their sins (Leviticus 4:35; 5:10). Jesus, our High Priest and Lamb, after forgiving the thief, transferred his sins, and the sins of mankind upon himself. Then Jesus was crucified (e.g., sacrificed) on a cross.

Jesus was the final OLD TESTAMENT sin sacrifice. The thief was saved under this action. Also, notice the thief acknowledge Jesus as God when he told Jesus, "remember me......in thy kingdom." He confirmed Jesus was a king and had a kingdom. Beautiful, ehh?



These gentiles did receive the Holy Ghost, but, they still obeyed the 3 step process. Where is your argument here? They obeyed the 3 step process!
I challenge you to show me different!



Aren't we a new creature after baptism? Are will still under condemnation after baptism? Aren't we dead to the flesh and alive in the spirit?

Have you studied these scriptures and their significance to believers?




Praxeas, remember the Pharisees accused Jesus of casting out devils by Beelzebub the prince of the devils? Jesus responded a kingdom divided against itself cannot stand. It's evident one must posses the spirit of God to cast out demons. What happens when you try casting out demons without the spirit of God? Remember the seven sons of Sceva?


Now that I've laid the foundation, I'll explain.

Matt 7 reads

22) Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

23) And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.


Now, these people that cast out devils or performed miracles were Holy Ghost filled, I proved it above. Now I ask you the same question you asked me, isn't the Spirit of the Father of Lights is inside them, leading them into truth? How can God tell Holy Ghost filled folks He never knew them?

Trinitarians may possess the Holy Ghost and still be workers of iniquity! Why, because their doctrine is false! When one violates the word of God, they're a worker on iniquity (see the Greek). The reason God grants their miracles is because He's faithful to His word.

So yes, they have the Holy Ghost. Many are called, few are chosen! Works always follows faith!

Re: Praxeas & Company (Thief Saved?/Baptism Essent
 

Sure sad when folks can't vote about their beliefs. God, don't let me ever become ashamed or embarrassed about my belief. Let not peer pressure or society prevent me from proclaiming your word!

Re: Praxeas & Company (Thief Saved?/Baptism Essent
 

I hesitated to vote - what do you say about batism for the remission of sins being done without Jesus' name?

Re: Praxeas & Company (Thief Saved?/Baptism Essent
 

Well seeing this is an apostolic forum, everyone should know baptism in Jesus name is mandatory.

Re: Praxeas & Company (Thief Saved?/Baptism Essent
 

we need the gospel, repentance , baptism in jesus name, and the spirit infilling, the exceptions if any are up to god, not me, dt

Re: Praxeas & Company (Thief Saved?/Baptism Essent
 

my turn to pass along the kudos1

Exelent point!

Re: Praxeas & Company (Thief Saved?/Baptism Essent
 

thanks ferd, why is it the libs and anti people always talk about exceptions, lol,dt

Re: Praxeas & Company (Thief Saved?/Baptism Essent
 

I say all this TIC, so it is not meant to be critical, but informatiove.

How many times have we all heard some one pray? "LORD let us take what we've heard here today put them into practice. Lord, let us be grateful, and let us do the right things. Let us provide for our families, and be good to our spouses.....". I always find it a bit comical to hear someone pray for God to let us do those things that He has already told us to do.

:tic:tic:tic:tic

Re: Praxeas & Company (Thief Saved?/Baptism Essent
 

I dont know. I dont get it.

instead of finding a way to comply, they are always trying to find a way to be right, without living with the rules!

Re: Praxeas & Company (Thief Saved?/Baptism Essent
 

must be the self justification thing, lol,dt

Re: Praxeas & Company (Thief Saved?/Baptism Essent
 

I guess that's what leads them to have a misplaced understanding that there is no difference between Grace and Mercy...:boxing

Re: Praxeas & Company (Thief Saved?/Baptism Essent
 

No, and that is a very broad statement. Baptism in Jesus name should be done, but there is the thing called grace, something I have seen the religious folks constantly run from. We are not saved at baptism, and those who say so are simply wrong.

Re: Praxeas & Company (Thief Saved?/Baptism Essent
 

Rules? C'mon! We are not saved by rules, not by works, and not by baptism. We are saved by grace through faith!

Why is it that Ephesians 2:8-9 is never preached on and never spoken in the so-called three step assemblies?

Re: Praxeas & Company (Thief Saved?/Baptism Essent
 

Such baptism is un-biblical, and was not practiced by the early church.

To be baptized into the [singular] name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost (Matt 28:19), was to be baptized into the name of Jesus. Plain and simple.

The Apostles understood this perfectly, and taught it from the very beginning.

Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved. (Acts 4:12)

Re: Praxeas & Company (Thief Saved?/Baptism Essent
 

PREACH IT!

Re: Praxeas & Company (Thief Saved?/Baptism Essent
 

Grace was given at calvary. I hope you understand there's also instruction and punishment within the bible!


Let me ask you something Bro. Price. You said after your father's passing God gave you a revelation of the truth. Basically, you stated God showed you baptism is optional under certain conditions?

Didn't God love you enough before your father's passing to give you this revelation?


What a coincidence, don't you think?

Re: Praxeas & Company (Thief Saved?/Baptism Essent
 

LOL!

Thou shalt not commit adultry (God)

He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. (John)

Follow my example as I follow Christ...and keep the ordinances, as I delivered them to you. (Paul)

Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth (Peter)

yea Price. you got it. there aint no rules.

Re: Praxeas & Company (Thief Saved?/Baptism Essent
 

Worse than that is "Lord bless us with your presence today" or "Come be with us today".............He was there before you walked through the doors!

Re: Praxeas & Company (Thief Saved?/Baptism Essent
 

But I LOVE that old slave hymn "Come down here Lord"!

Re: Praxeas & Company (Thief Saved?/Baptism Essent
 

I am sure there will be wailing and nashing of teeth.

Re: Praxeas & Company (Thief Saved?/Baptism Essent
 

I'm, not sure why BP was so upset by the question. No one disrespected him, or his father's memory.

Frankly, I didn't think the question that was asked was unreasonable.

Re: Praxeas & Company (Thief Saved?/Baptism Essent
 

TRFrance,


Thanks for seeing that. There was no ill-intentions meant with that question toward Price.

Re: Praxeas & Company (Thief Saved?/Baptism Essent
 

I dont think you were untoward in any way, but in reflecting on the subject in general, I think it might simply be best to leave loved ones who have passed alone.

I dont think you were unkind, but it cannot be easy for Bill to have to be reminded of his fathers passing.

Re: Praxeas & Company (Thief Saved?/Baptism Essent
 

Fair enough; and no one is trying to be insensitive to that...

but BP himself has brought up the issue of his father's passing quite a few times ... especially when speaking of how it was a moment where the Lord supposedly revealed to him the 1-stepper doctrine.

So he himself has brought it up multiple times, why would we think, or assume, that the issue is off-limits when asking him about his doctrinal shift?

Re: Praxeas & Company (Thief Saved?/Baptism Essent
 

I deleted my response. No need in getting too upset, knowing what I now know.

Re: Praxeas & Company (Thief Saved?/Baptism Essent
 

I'm still awaiting an answer to my question.

Thanks.

Re: Praxeas & Company (Thief Saved?/Baptism Essent
 

I think it might be best to just drop the issue for now. It's obviously a very sensitive issue for him.

Re: Praxeas & Company (Thief Saved?/Baptism Essent
 

Especially since I have a certain poster now on ignore...

for good! :D

Re: Praxeas & Company (Thief Saved?/Baptism Essent
 

With repsect......this is the same tatic JW's and Mormons use to not face reality......they run.

Re: Praxeas & Company (Thief Saved?/Baptism Essent
 

For this one time, just this once, I will answer this question, and never again...

The reason I changed views as I did at the time of my Dad's passing was not just in his passing. So, no, it was not about convience trying to get him into Heaven. I know now he is. I changed the day I lost everything, and I finally saw the etherial mess and sham of a man I was. I changed when I lost everything, to the point I cried out to God to show me everything that was wrong in my life. I changed when I realized the modern conservative church, groups I tried so hard to fit into, left me, abandoned me, and left me dead mentally on the side of the road.

I was content in staying as I was, but I came to the point of sayint to the Lord that religion was no longer enough, and I was tired of trying religion. On the day my Dad passed into eternity, God finally secured what He had been working in me for a long while.

No, it was not convient. It was not me trying to get my Dad into Heaven while religious pentecostalism sent him to Hell. It was about that one moment, when the requiem was playing the background of my life, and God stepped in and showed me Him, His truth, and the validity of what he did.

I know if I did not openly answer this, I would be hounded by the religious for a long time on the forum. So, this is the answer, and the only time I shall answer this question.

Re: Praxeas & Company (Thief Saved?/Baptism Essent
 

I am sorry for your loss Brother, but I still question the validity of your revelation.

It appears by reading your post that your problem stemmed from having more faith in religion or orgs than in God. It is through our faith and trust in Him do we form the body of Christ, not the other way around.

I believe God was giving you a revelation but I think you misread it. I believe he was telling you to rely more on Him instead of the church. Instead you have an obvious bitterness, which as you and I both know, can not be what God had in mind.

Bless you..

Re: Praxeas & Company (Thief Saved?/Baptism Essent
 

Hey scotty. Thanks for the kindness in your post...

I don't think I got it wrong. At first, I admit, that was my thought as well. However, as things began aligning in my life, I saw this the way I do now, that these folks I had damned to hell had the real Holy Ghost, and were saved. I began to go deeper into the Word, and saw how God filled individuals with His Spirit prior to baptism. I saw it in my life, how I got the Holy Ghost some 4 years, while I was in the Baptist church. I saw how God began confirming His Word even within His Word.

Yeah, I have a great deal of bitterness within me towards religion. I see it as toxic, and poisonous. I am trying to tone it down a bit, but when I see the religious damning souls to Hell, destroying young and hungry souls, and bring the Cross to a disgrace, I just go off still in that arena.

Thanks again for your kind words.

Re: Praxeas & Company (Thief Saved?/Baptism Essent
 

I've encountered JWs that will debate a topic into the ground to the point that it's just a chore to read ad nausuem posts over and over. Running, not facing reality, attitudes, insensitivities, getting tired of arguing, beligerance, obfuscations, ad hominems etc etc....I can go on and on, are all elements of being human, not being with any one group or another.

maybe he is just sick of this topic. It has been discussed extensively like a dead horse being beaten to a pulp.

Re: Praxeas & Company (Thief Saved?/Baptism Essent
 

Traumatic events in ones life can change your personality and in so doing it can both change your perception of things, including doctrine and it can cause you to reflect once again and take a second look at your life and your views.

Many people FIND God in these circumstances and many current Christians have left God for the same reason. Others have changed their doctrines a little and others have changed their attitudes in HOW they handle their doctrines and treat others.

I doubt BP actively switched doctrines because in his mind it means his father is saved...which essentially means BP lied to himself in order to feel good. I really doubt that. I do not doubt though that what happened caused him to take a second look and be more introspective and extrospective.

That alone does not prove him wrong. Howeve in the process of arguing doctrine appeals to emotion should be pointed out. Our feelings are not the basis of God's Truth for us.

Re: Praxeas & Company (Thief Saved?/Baptism Essent
 

It was based on this post of yours
This is again MY point actually...it was JESUS that saves...Nobody in the OT or the NT can be saved by anyone other than Jesus and it is FAITH in Jesus. How was the thief saved though? Good works? Keeping the law?

I was quoting the bible. If you have a problem with that then your problem is not with me but with the word. You added a smiley face to indicate mockery and a lack of sincerity in this discussion. That bothers me since I was only quoting the word.

Should we treat the word of God as a competition?

This is Paul speaking, not me
Gal 3:6 just as Abraham "believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness"?
Gal 3:7 Know then that it is those of faith who are the sons of Abraham.
Gal 3:8 And the Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel beforehand to Abraham, saying, "In you shall all the nations be blessed."
It WAS a requirement because ALL Jews believed in a LIVING messiah not a dead one.

This is what David said
Psa 16:8 I have set Jehovah always before Me; because He is at My right hand, I shall not be moved.
Psa 16:9 Therefore My heart is glad, and My glory rejoices; My flesh also shall rest in hope;
Psa 16:10 For You will not leave My soul in hell; You will not allow Your Holy One to see corruption.

Act 2:24 whom God raised up, having loosed the pains of death, because it was not possible that He should be held by it.
Act 2:25 For David speaks concerning Him, "I foresaw the Lord always before me, because He is at my right hand, that I should not be moved.
Act 2:26 Therefore my heart rejoiced and my tongue was glad; and also My flesh shall rest in hope,
Act 2:27 because You will not leave My soul in Hades, nor will You allow Your holy One to see corruption.

From the very first book of the bible this was a Truth...
Gen 3:15 And I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your seed and her Seed; He will bruise your head, and you shall bruise His heel.

True believers always believed in a Messiah that lives, not a Messiah that is dead. Even Peter lost faith at one point when Jesus died not understanding what the scriptures said. Jesus corrected their faith
Luk 24:25 And he said to them, "O foolish ones, and slow of heart to believe all that the prophets have spoken!
Luk 24:26 Was it not necessary that the Christ should suffer these things and enter into his glory?"
Luk 24:27 And beginning with Moses and all the Prophets, he interpreted to them in all the Scriptures the things concerning himself.
The bible says God does not change. Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, today and forever. There are not a dozen different ways to be saved. God does not change. It was always by faith and by the Blood of Jesus. That again does not mean we can disobey God. True believers OBEY God.


Are you asking because you don't know?
I recommend reading all of Hebrews. Read especially ALL of chapter 10....here is an excerpt
Heb 10:1 For since the law has but a shadow of the good things to come instead of the true form of these realities, it can never, by the same sacrifices that are continually offered every year, make perfect those who draw near.
Heb 10:2 Otherwise, would they not have ceased to be offered, since the worshipers, having once been cleansed, would no longer have any consciousness of sins?
Heb 10:3 But in these sacrifices there is a reminder of sins every year.
Heb 10:4 For it is impossible for the blood of bulls and goats to take away sins.
Heb 10:5 Consequently, when Christ came into the world, he said, "Sacrifices and offerings you have not desired, but a body have you prepared for me;
Heb 10:6 in burnt offerings and sin offerings you have taken no pleasure.
Heb 10:7 Then I said, 'Behold, I have come to do your will, O God, as it is written of me in the scroll of the book.'"
Heb 10:8 When he said above, "You have neither desired nor taken pleasure in sacrifices and offerings and burnt offerings and sin offerings" (these are offered according to the law),
Heb 10:9 then he added, "Behold, I have come to do your will." He does away with the first in order to establish the second.
Heb 10:10 And by that will we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

The purpose of the Law was to lead to Christ. Paul says in Galatian that it was our school master

In Romans Paul says ALL have sinned and come short of the Glory of God and are justified by His grace as a gift Rom 3:20-24...even Abraham is said to have been justified by faith. Yet he believed and obeyed. It was His believing God that justified him though....not a covenant of laws. We are a part of the original covenant of Abraham. I already posted those verses

Yes that point IS mute since John's baptism never saved anyone either. My comment about the thief being baptized IF he did not die is speculation? You are arguing that everyone has to be baptized absolutely to be saved and here I say that if the thief did not die he would still have to obey the command to be baptized in Jesus name is speculation?

how is it a contradiction? yes everyone NEEDS to be baptized. If the thief did not die then he would still have needed to obey the word. Obeying the word is necessary for those that are living and wanting to be saved. Obedience though comes from the HEART.

Re: Praxeas & Company (Thief Saved?/Baptism Essent
 

A person that dies before getting the chance to be baptized is NOT being disobedient. DISOBEDIENCE is a willful act. It is not the act of someone that has faith. If you were told to go do something and someone else kept you from doing that, that does not mean you were disobeying. If you were going to do it that means you are obedient.

I never said we can disobey so you are just
Once again I never said we can be disobedient. This all proves though that you put more emphasis on the act than on the heart faith. Works are things WE think WE can do to save our selves. Obedience is from the heart though of faith. Works are people without faith trying to save themselves. Abraham obeyed God from the heart, because he was a man of faith. It was not his acts that saved him but the condition of the heart.

Read Romans 4 please, here are some excerpts

Rom 4:9 Is this blessing then only for the circumcised, or also for the uncircumcised? We say that faith was counted to Abraham as righteousness.
Rom 4:10 How then was it counted to him? Was it before or after he had been circumcised? It was not after, but before he was circumcised.
Rom 4:11 He received the sign of circumcision as a seal of the righteousness that he had by faith while he was still uncircumcised. The purpose was to make him the father of all who believe without being circumcised, so that righteousness would be counted to them as well,
Rom 4:12 and to make him the father of the circumcised who are not merely circumcised but who also walk in the footsteps of the faith that our father Abraham had before he was circumcised.
Rom 4:13 For the promise to Abraham and his offspring that he would be heir of the world did not come through the law but through the righteousness of faith.

Noticed Abraham was counted righteous even before he obeyed God. If he disobeyed (a willful act) then he would not have been righteous and not only that according to their agreement anyone that did not obey circumcision was cut off. But obedience and disobedience are from the heart.

You have to WILLFULLY not do what you are told. If I keep you from doing what you are told that does not make you disobedience. In this is the difference between an actual WORK and OBEDIENCE from the heart. And in this is where legalists fail by putting emphasis on the actual dead and not on the faith.

And in this is baptism OUR covenant sign or circumcision. Remission of sins, circumcision of the heart is God's job. He does it. That is part of the covenant HE keeps. Our part is to have faith, repent, be baptized and to continue in His word as obedient children from the heart

Rom 6:16 Do you not know that if you present yourselves to anyone as obedient slaves, you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin, which leads to death, or of obedience, which leads to righteousness?
Rom 6:17 But thanks be to God, that you who were once slaves of sin have become obedient from the heart to the standard of teaching to which you were committed,
Rom 6:18 and, having been set free from sin, have become slaves of righteousness.
Rom 6:19 I am speaking in human terms, because of your natural limitations. For just as you once presented your members as slaves to impurity and to lawlessness leading to more lawlessness, so now present your members as slaves to righteousness leading to sanctification.
Rom 6:20 For when you were slaves of sin, you were free in regard to righteousness.
Rom 6:21 But what fruit were you getting at that time from the things of which you are now ashamed? For the end of those things is death.
Rom 6:22 But now that you have been set free from sin and have become slaves of God, the fruit you get leads to sanctification and its end, eternal life.

Rom 6:23 For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
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You are welcome...that IS what I plainly stated, but I don't think you understood it. Maybe you are just intent on arguing so much that you are not getting my point?

First of all in the OT they DID baptise. Second WHY did Jesus forgive him? What was the basis? Third the OLD COVENANT or the law of Moses never saved anyone.

Please read Hebrews. Those animals were NOT sufficient to cleans anyone of all their sins. There was a constant reminder and constant need to make those sacrifices that NEVER made anyone perfect. IF this was the case Jesus would not have needed to forgive the thief as you said.

The thief was not saved BY the law. Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, today and forever. The law did NOT save the thief. Jesus did.

BTW you said "also notice the thief acknowledge Jesus as God when he told Jesus "remember me...in thy kingdom"...eh? Yeah even more beautiful since I already mentioned this to you to show that the thief believed Jesus would not be left dead like David said in the grave but be resurrected from the grave.

Clearly you are not getting the point. I was the one that SAID they obeyed all three. Please take time to stop debating for the sake of entertainment and read what I said. My point I explicitly laid out verbatim so asking me what my argument makes me think you are not taking this seriously. They did Acts 2:38 in REVERSE of how Peter said it was to be. This proves everything is not absolute literal as you expect it to be. If it was then EVERYONE should be baptized before receiving the Spirit. That was an exception. That was the point. The second point is the bible says God can not dwell with sin right? So these were sinners being filled with the Spirit of God...and they were STILL sinners while having the Spirit of God, speaking in tongues until they were baptized.

I thought it was the Spirit that made us new creatures....are you saying that when someone is baptized they receive the Spirit instantly?

Were the Apostles baptized in the Holy Spirit before Pentecost?

Are you agreeing then that God is filling millions of sinners with the Spirit of God having never had their sins forgiven in the first place? And that they still have the Spirit in them even though they are rank sinners...full of sin?

Re: Praxeas & Company (Thief Saved?/Baptism Essent
 

I must have passed over this post earlier TR, sorry about that. And as we've already discussed, the baptism of John was NOT done in Jesus' name and yet was "for the remission of sins" (Mark 1:4).

Re: Praxeas & Company (Thief Saved?/Baptism Essent
 

Well, Peathais, if by this you were referring to John's baptsm:
(that wasnt clear to me, if you were indeed referring to John's baptism only...)

then evidently, we're talking about 2 different things.

John's baptism was, of course, not Christian baptism.
What I was referring to is baptism in the church age.
So we really cant properly compare the two.