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Charismatic Apostolic
Does allowing hair cutting and jewelery affect the move of the holy spirit in a local congregation, your personal annointing or your personal relationship with God?
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Re: Charismatic Apostolic
Most certainly it does. The True anointing (not personal talents and abilities) will not flow is there is such sin in the church, not talking here about visitors either.
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He's Baaaack! :happydance Now where it Thad? |
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There are many many folks (hundreds of thousands) that would disagree with you! I am one of those. I have experience from both sides of the tracks, and have seen no difference. |
Re: Charismatic Apostolic
Everyone knows the first step that shows a woman is backslidden and/or in rebellion is that she cuts her hair.
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Everyone also knows that long hair brings angelic protection and has been attributed to being a vehicle through obedience to the miraculous
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Everyone also knows that if the service is dead .... it's because some of the young ladies in church are trimming their ends.
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Hey DA, where have you been?
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Slayin' 3 step dragons and legalist big bad wolves. |
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WH ...
True anointing flows in my church thru women w/ cropped hair ... How would you explain this phenomena/anomoly? |
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...but, it's nice to see your avatar again. I missed her! :bliss |
Re: Charismatic Apostolic
Well DA, I have never felt the move of he HG in a liberal church, not to say that it doesn't happen; but I have felt the HG in holiness churches.
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OK now this may not be following the discussion entirely... but how/what I "feel" is not usually related to locality... Nor do I place any large emphasis on any feeling whatsoever. |
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I feel the Holy Ghost ... :bliss |
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Go figure. |
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How did the Holy Ghost move on Azusa Street ... filling some of our Oneness pioneers during this time period ... with all that trimmed hair and bling-bling and w/ *gasp* trinitarians?
Must've been an amnesty of sorts. Tax amnesty ... Illegal alien amnesty ... Holy Ghost amnesty ??? |
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I was hoping that someone who was anti-jewelry would make a comment, but no one did. If you wouldn't mind commenting on the issue over there, I'd be interested to hear your thoughts... As a matter of fact... I'll just make it a bit easier for you, and post the words here from that thread [below]. Your thoughts please... (or any other anti-jewelry believer who wants to comment, feel free): Quote:
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HOGWASH! http://www.ianjuby.org/images/hogwashmeterred.jpg |
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and it still falls on women who smear their mascara. |
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and you better be careful, your family may lose its miracle angel power and you may fall into sin, get cancer, or have your cat run over by a dump truck because someone in your extended family may or may not be thinking about bobbing their hair .. which of course would revoke the favor of God and bind the annointing of God that they impart into your families life ... man thats good stuff there... i could write a book and have it published by PPH and go on the ladies ministry speaking circuit ... oh wait .. i got beat to the punch years ago. |
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in fact it even falls on struggling preachers who have pride in their hearts, it falls on teens who are trying to sort out whether God really made them or the teacher teaching evolution is right, and it falls on nearly anyone who comes to God with a open heart and admits their imperfections and asks for real "power before the throne". |
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i usually feel it when i counsel saints, sit in my lazy boy and meditate on scripture application in daily life, and while driving. sometimes when i slow down working in the church setting and stop being a "Martha" i can even feel it strongly in corporate worship :) |
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Growing up ... my oldest brother used to have church in the shower .. He'd start singin' ... then you could hear his prayer language and him shockamooing ... Weird if you ask me....lol ... jk. |
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No he is sitting on the Throne surrounded by a 1500 mile high by 1500 mile wide by 1500 mile deep city made of Gold. Im sticking it to the weaker brothers who dont take Pauls warning to not feel more righteous than the stronger brothers who understand their holiness is in relationship with God and his kindness.
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Re: Charismatic Apostolic
Why is it that people are so insensitive about other people's convictions?
The so-called liberals are always accusing the so-called conservatives of being intolerant and judgmental while the whole time being intolerant and judgmental themselves? Every time there is a thread like this, it seems the battle drums call out to every poster looking for a fight...a fight that can never be won! :2cents |
Re: Charismatic Apostolic
Because we sometimes get tired of taking bad doctrine in the face and we like to push back at times. Most of the fight comes from the right, i rarely take direct shots on here against anyone. But even Paul confronted the original disciples to their face in Jerusalem, and i doubt the discussion followed Roberts Rules of Order to keep it to a dull roar in the conference hall.
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This is not a lost cause ... This is not about changing the hearts and minds of those who are entrenched in man-made traditions and doctrines ... but those that sit and lurk on the fence ... hundreds that read this very forum and dare not weigh in for a multitude of reasons ... including fear of repercussions from their religious peers This is why some of the other gladiators in the arena of ideas have left their positions here as their influence to shape discussion has withered in the vine.... and whine about not being heard, respected or tolerated ... when in their circles divergent discussion is squashed, ridiculed and vilified Many have realized their views on outward holiness are not salvific but rather an issue of conviction .... others have realized falsehoods about doctrine and holiness that have been perpetuated for decades and are now reading, researching and sharing their findings online, blogging, in other forums, homes and churches. I have no problem w/ this is my conviction as long as it's taught that way ... truly. There are individual hills to be WON ... and some of us will pursue those relentlessly with THE TRUTH. SINCE TRUTH MATTERS. |
Re: Charismatic Apostolic
last Wednesday we taught about Seperation from the world and the principles of it. Some people have personal convictions we also call standards, but standards are only of value when they are self imposed because of a need due to personal weakness. to dictate them to a local church from a committee at a denominational level is a sign of weakness not growth.
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However, for someone to say that because women have cut hair there's no MOVE of God at all in those services isn't a conviction. That's just wrong! |
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Who needs a edumikation?
----------------------------------------------------------------- http://www.xenos.org/teachings/nt/1c...y/1cor11-1.htm 1 Corinthians 11:2-16 Cultural Norms & Marriage Roles By Gary DeLashmutt Introduction Beginning in chapter 11 and through chapter 14, Paul addresses problems with the Corinthian Christians' meetings: GETTING DRUNK AT COMMUNION; TONGUES CHAOS; SELFISH USE OF GIFTS—and something else. Read vs 2-6. Some of the women were attending their meetings without veils. Actually, Paul is addressing two different issues in his comments about women's' veils. One is a time-bound cultural norm and the other is a timeless theological truth. Let's look at each of them in turn . . . THE CULTURE-SPECIFIC PRACTICE: Women Veiled In Public It is clear from the language of vs 5,6 that it was considered disgraceful in that culture for women to be unveiled in public. In fact, Paul says this practice will disgrace her husband ("head" vs 5) by communicating that she is like those women who go around in public with shorn or shaven heads. What is Paul talking about? What is the cultural significance of these things? In Oriental cultures (even today), women are veiled in public as a sign of chastity and submission to their husbands. [1] From the information available to us, we cannot be certain about the shorn hair and shaven heads. But most likely, the women with short hair referred to the priestess prostitutes who walked about in public both unveiled and with short hair to advertise themselves to men. Women with shaven heads may refer to convicted adulteresses. From Paul, these Christian women had learned of their high status in Christ (essential equality before God; equally accepted). From Paul, they had also been liberated to minister in ways unthinkable in other religions (v. 5: "praying or prophesying"). It is ironic to realize that passages like this one, on the basis of which Paul has been branded a repressive chauvinist, are in fact evidence of his liberation of women. It would never have been necessary to correct their abuse of new freedoms if he hadn't extended these freedoms in the first place! Those who brand Paul as a repressive chauvinist ignore this fact. But, as is often the case, they were abusing this new-found freedom (21 YR.-OLDS DRINKING; 16 YR.-OLDS DRIVING). By refusing to be veiled in their public meetings, they were causing serious problems. They were disgracing their husbands (v. 5). They were enjoying their freedom, but it was costing their husbands their reputations in the community. This should bother them. They were communicating to Corinthian onlookers that they were immoral women. Paul assumes this will bother them, and speaks very directly to it (v .6). If they're unwilling to wear veils, they might as well cut their hair because others are going to view them as sexually loose. If they don't want to be known as prostitutes, they shouldn't dress like them. More seriously, they were disgracing Christ by misrepresenting him to the non-Christian Corinthians. Imagine yourself as a visitor to one of their meetings. You've also visited the cult of Aphrodite. Here are women who appear to be sexually loose, people speaking in tongues chaotically, people getting drunk. What would you conclude? Jesus is merely the head of one more mystery/fertility cult instead of the Son of God who has come to forgive us and empower us to live according to God's moral design. This is the main reason why Paul argues that they should wear veils. They should voluntarily limit their freedom by observing this custom so that others will not be hindered from coming to Christ. This is the contextual principle in which his comments are grounded (read 10:32-11:1). Paul has been stressing this principle ever since chapter 6. Even though in Christ we are free, we should be willing out of love to limit our freedom so others can benefit spiritually (FOODS; APOSTOLIC SUPPORT; CULTURAL IDENTIFICATION). Should Christian women wear head-coverings in church meetings in America today? Many Christian groups insist on this, but the correct answer is an emphatic "NO." The principle is: Don't needlessly flout cultural custom. The first-century application of this principle was: Do wear veils in public. In twentieth century American culture, women do not wear veils. So the correct application is: Don't wear veils in public. Those who do, no matter well-intentioned, are ironically guilty of violating the principle of the passage by obeying its first-century application! By wearing head-coverings, they are needlessly flouting cultural custom, and people are needlessly turned off to Christianity. While we should love such Christians and relate to them with respect, we should also realize they are weak in faith and try to inform them when possible, so Christianity won't be needlessly viewed as culturally weird. (On the other hand, our female missionaries in SE Asia may need to observe this custom in some settings . . .) THE UNIVERSAL NORM: Male Headship In Marriage But there was another problem with their refusal to be veiled. Since veils also communicated subjection to their husbands, not wearing them implied a rejection of their husband's headship. While veils are a time-bound cultural practice, Paul argues that male headship in marriage is a universal norm—true and important for all time and in all cultures. Notice how he does this: Vs 3 states this as a universal truth and links it to Jesus' relationship with the Father. "The man is the head of a woman" means that the husband is the head (leader) over his wife in their marriage relationship. In the same way that Jesus, although he was equal to the Father in deity (Jn. 10:30), submitted himself to the Father's leadership (Jn. 12:49), so wives, although they are equal to their husband in their humanity, should submit themselves to their husband's leadership. |
Re: Charismatic Apostolic
Since the veil communicated acknowledgment of this truth in their culture, Paul defends the legitimacy of this custom on theological grounds in vs 7-10 (read). As in other passages, Paul explains why God has made the husband the head in the marriage relationship.
In my opinion, this authority structure within marriage became necessary only after the fall (see Gen. 3:16b). Prior to the fall, there was no need for delegated authority because both parties were in perfect communion with God. But in a fallen world, roles of authority are necessary in order to preserve order and prevent anarchy (WORK PLACE; CIVIL GOVERNMENT). Thus, God instituted the man as head in the marriage relationship. What was the basis for this choice? As Genesis 2 narrates, Adam was created first, and God made Eve from Adam and for him (to be his unique counterpart unlike the animals). Paul's obscure reference to the angels (vs 10b) probably means that angels, who are present at Christian meetings, are acutely conscious of delegated authority in God's universe. They exist as his servants and show respect for his authority structure. We should imitate this attitude instead of rebelling against it. Of course, this truth is very unpopular in our culture. There are two very different reasons for this. MALE CHAUVINISM: One reason is the undeniable historical abuse of male headship in human society and in the church. Christians should acknowledge this, condemn it, and distinguish biblical headship from its abuse. Consider the following important biblical qualifications, which also help to define biblical male headship: Difference in role does not mean superiority or inferiority as people (vs 11-12). The fact that you submit to a POLICEMAN does not mean you are intrinsically inferior to him; it means that you acknowledge he plays a legitimate role of authority. By the same token, male headship does not imply intrinsic female inferiority in any way. Paul evidently adds vs 11-12 to prevent us from concluding that role equals essence. Both men and women were created in God's image and therefore have equal value in God's eyes. Woman's origination from man in creation is tempered by men's subsequent origination from women. In Gal. 3:28, Paul states that both are equally heirs of salvation through Christ. Obviously, as Christians we should communicate this same attitude toward all people regardless of gender. How different this is from Roman and Greek moral philosophers, who described women as "worthless," "silly," and "innately inferior to men" who should "serve as slaves" to their husbands. [2] Husbands should be subject to Christ's authority (vs 3). Paul's point in v. 3 ("the head of a man is Christ") is that husbands are not a law unto themselves; they are under Christ's authority. Husbands should lead the way in their marriages in obeying Christ, not act like little Hitler's. This has two important implications. Husbands should be submissive to Christ's authority not only when it is expressed directly through the Bible, but also when it is expressed indirectly through other Christians—including their wives. This is the importance of Eph. 5:21. No Christian husband has a basis for saying "It's not your place to correct me." If needed, his wife should correct him with biblical absolutes and he should submit to this correction. Any Christian man who uses his authority to rebel against God's moral will is wrong and should not be obeyed. In cases where he calls on his wife to disobey Christ, he should be respectfully disobeyed (SPOUSE-SWAPPING; NO FELLOWSHIP), as with all delegated authorities. Male headship is limited to certain relationships (Eph. 5:22). The wife is to be subject to "her own husband," not to all men in general. Any teaching that men are automatically in authority over women (e.g., work-place) is a caricature of the biblical position. The husband should use their authority in love and to serve their wives (Eph. 5:25-29). Jesus is very authoritative, and he sometimes calls on us to do what is costly and painful, but he always leads us out of love and for our good. The proof of this is the cross. Christian husbands should not use their God-given authority to selfishly take from their wives (KING IN CASTLE); they should use it to help their wives grow spiritually (as good parents use it for their children's good). They should be modeling Christ-like character, initiating sacrificial love, and creatively fostering their wives' spiritual development. For the wife who wants to mature in Christ, this is a wonderful provision, even though it may still be scary or difficult at times. HUSBANDS: LEAD THIS WAY!!! WIVES: BE WILLING TO SUBMIT TO THIS KIND OF LEADERSHIP!! MODERN SELFISM: The other reason is the view that defines submission to another person is an admission of inferiority and therefore a betrayal of one's personhood. This is the predominant secular view, which undergirds so much of feminist thinking. It rejects all authority as abusive (including God's) and makes the assertion of my rights and will the number one priority in life. This view has deeply influenced many of us, and is taught as dogma to our youth. We should reject this view because: Biblical submission is an affirmation of true personhood because we are created by God to follow his wise & loving leadership. God's authority is legitimate because he created you and knows better than you do how you should live. Submission to his authority is the essence of what it means to be a human being—not a negation of it. Insistence on your will is rebellion against God, which is the essence of sin >> GOSPEL HERE. It promotes the same relationally destructive error that it properly condemns in male chauvinism—demanding personal rights & power at the other person’s expense. Unless there is the willingness of both people to submit to God, and to sacrifice many of our desires for the good of the other person, and to respect God's authority structure for the home, we are left with marriage as a battle ground and the children as casualties!! We are witnessing the foul fruit of this view (DIVORCE EFFECTS ON SPOUSES & CHILDREN), and it is every bit as ugly as male chauvinism!! CHALLENGE THE CHRISTIANS NOT TO BE CONFORMED HERE, BUT TO BE LIGHTS IN THE MIDST OF A CROOKED & PERVERSE GENERATION . . . Footnotes [1] Sir William Ramsay states: "In Oriental lands the veil is the . . . dignity of the woman. With the veil on her head she can go anywhere (in public) in security and respect . . . But without the veil the woman is a thing of nought, whom anyone may insult . . . A woman's . . . dignity vanish(es) along with the all-covering veil that she discards." (Cited in Leon Morris, The First Epistle of Paul to the Corinthians [Grand Rapids: Eerdmans, 1958], p. 154). "No respectable woman in an eastern village or city goes out without it, and, if she does, she is in danger of being misjudges." (T. W. Davies, cited in Leon Morris, The Letters to the Corinthians[Philadelphia: Westminster Press, 1977], p. 97). [2] Richard Longenecker, New Testament Social Ethics, pp. 71-73.. |
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