Defining God
 

Recently I came across a question that gave me pause to think. How can one love that which is unknowable? In this case, we are commanded by God to, “… love the LORD thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy might.” De 6:5, JPS, while at the same time we are informed that God is unknowable and unapproachable. That we are unable to comprehend who or what God truly is, or to understand even His ways.

The Old Testament is full of descriptions of God and explanations (examples) of His nature, while also informing us that God is nothing like what He has revealed to us in His word. That is, God is above and beyond what we can conceive or imagine. All the while, we are expected to both know and to love God – which implies an intimate relationship. How can one establish and maintain such a relationship with someone you can only “know about”, but never actually come to “know” face to face?

This question, of necessity, drives us into a more fundamental dilemma, i.e. how can we describe (even talk about) God intelligently, without committing heresy? Heresy, in this case, being defined by Rabbi Yanki Tauber as “The placement of God within the scale of our reality, the attribution to Him of qualities that are part of our vision of our world and ourselves.”

We are all guilty of making absolute statements about subjects we know next to nothing about. Many times we are willing to die for our convictions - or even to kill others over theirs, as Christians were doing to each other up to only a few hundred years ago.

I therefore place before this assembly the following question:

How can one define (describe) God in both personal and spiritually meaningful terms that demonstrate a comprehensive understanding of God’s true nature and His relationship to His creation?

Okay kids - lets give it a shot. BTW, answeres like , "You can't", or "It is impossible", are not acceptable.

Re: Defining God
 

to be made conformable to his death through our taking up our cross and following him, that we may know him and the power of the resurrection...the meek shall see God. the apostle, prophet, evangelist, pastor and teacher are for the work of the ministry, until we all come into the unity of the faith, unto a perfect man, unto the knowledge of the Son of God. Many say that they know God, yet there is a process whereby we are to grow up into him, the manchild, the perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ. God came down to us that we might come up into him. We know him no more after the flesh, but after the Spirit. Can we know God? Yes, because he made the way for us to see his glory and to be where he is...the same glory that was given to him in the days of his flesh is the same glory that he has given to the church as his body....various steps in that God foreknew us, then predestined, then called, then justified, then ultimately glorified...being conformed to his image unto full maturity....

in the throne room revelation of Jesus in Revelation 4, there is a jasper which is the last stone on the breastplate of judgment having Naphtali (my wrestling) being written on it which speaks of Jesus' wrestling on the cross of Calvary ; then the sardine (sardius) having Judah written upon it being "praise"...thus revealing throughout eternity the cross which brings the all praise to Jesus; then the rainbow, an arch of light, which contains 7 basic colors which has within it every color in their various infinite hues....Each various hue has its own particular wavelength just like the voice of speech that has it own particular wavelengths, each color by spectrum analysis...as the beasts before the throne see these various colors that utter speech, they cry "Holy, Holy, Holy is the Lord God Almighty"...then it mentions time...being "which was, which is, and which is to come"...From each color which speaks of Jesus' glory as God Almighty passes from the scarlet to various infinite shades of red then proceeds to orange and its various infinite hues, to the yellow, to the green, to the blue, indigo and purple...etc., with each new spiritual insight gives another attribute and majesty in knowing Him...which will take an entire eternity to begin to know Him and His Majesty...We know him now...and we shall grow in the knowledge of Him throughout eternity....

just some thoughts...

Re: Defining God
 

He is my Father, I don't need to define Him.

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I believe that God is an invisible spirit who fills all space. He is separate from His creation. This is called His transcendence.

I also believe that the one true God is immanent, or close to His creation and interacts with it.

God is an invisible spirit who throughout the Old Testament has revealed Himself to humankind as the angel (messenger) of JHVH. This messenger was both the One who sent and the One who was sent. He was God above all and separate from humanity and at the same time was God among us humans. He was the invisible God who became visible. He was the hidden God who was revealed or made manifest. As the distant God come near, or as the hidden God revealed, He was called the Word, or the Logos, or the Memra, or the glory of the Messiah, or Ha Kavod.

He appeared many times in the Old Testament and interacted with humankind. He appeared to Abram. He wrestled with Jacob. He appeared to Moses in a burning bush. He appeared to many in Israel as sitting on a throne or as a pillar of fire or pillar of cloud. He appeared to Isaiah as God above the temple, filling the temple. He appeared as a fourth man in a furnace. Etc. Etc. These were temporary manifestations or revelations of God. This was God revealed. That temporary revelation, that Word became flesh and dwelt among us.

After establishing the deity and the humanity of the Logos/Word/Memra/Ha Kavod, in verses 1 through 17 of the Gospel named after him, the apostle John went on in verse 18 of that first chapter and said, "No man has ever seen God at any time; the only unique Son, or the only begotten God, Who is in the bosom [in the intimate presence] of the Father, He has declared Him [He has revealed Him and brought Him out where He can be seen; He has interpreted Him and He has made Him known]." Amplified Bible

In the first chapter of First John, the Apostle described this Word/Logos/Memra/Ha Kavod as
the one who was from the beginning,
the one they heard with their ears,
the one they saw with their eyes,
the one they observed over a period of time,
the one their hands had handled.
the Word.

In other words, when Jesus took on humanity, He was the One true God of the Old Testament, the invisible God who had made Himself visible over the years and who had appeared to and interacted with humankind. He was God the sender and God the sent one.

The doctrine of the trinity is an attempt to understand and explain God. It was developed over the years. It was an attempt to explain the God of the Hebrews in Latin and Greek terms and now later on into English terms. No wonder we've got it so convoluted and difficult.

In the Old Testament, God was
1 the Father --the One who was the creator and originator of all, the one Who was above all and sovereign over all.
2 the Word --God revealed, localized, made known, among humankind and interacting with humankind
3 the Spirit (Spirit of God, Spirit of the Lord, Holy Ghost, etc) --God working upon, working among, working within people and things, influencing, empowering, changing, etc.

n the New Testament, God is
1 the Father --the One who was the creator and originator of all, the one Who was above all and sovereign over all, the One who caused a virgin to conceive and give birth to a son.
2 the Word, the Son --God revealed, localized, made known, among humankind and interacting with humankind
3 the Spirit (Spirit of God, Spirit of the Lord, Holy Ghost, Spirit of Christ, Christ in us, Jesus living in our hearts) --God working upon, working among, working within people and things, influencing, empowering, changing, etc.

Some may call this Oneness and some may call this Trinity.
Is this Oneness or Trinity?
The answer is "yes."

Re: Defining God
 

There are things which God has made known to us about Himself, which are found in His word and in the things which He has created.

De 29:29 The secret things belong unto the LORD our God: but those things which are revealed belong unto us and to our children for ever, that we may do all the words of this law.

By studying His word under the illumination that the Spirit, our teacher, gives us.

Re: Defining God
 

Beard, cneasttx, and mizpeh – thank you for sharing your thoughts and insights. You three share a degree of spiritual maturity worthy of cultivation.

Jim, as usual, you demonstrate a perceptive grasp of spiritual issues. Thank you. Now, can I prevail upon you to take this line of reasoning to the next level, after a few others have had the opportunity to discover and discuss the true nature of the original question?

To all: perhaps a clue to delving into issues such as this one, is that one must set aside some of the things we think we know (personal doctrine and/or church dogma) and delve into the word of God for our selves: not to “prove a point” or “justify a point of view”, but to discover something of the deeper things of God. Questions that should be asked first are: What is really being asked by the question? What are the different parts of the question and how do they relate? Is there something missing – or is there too much information given and/or required?

Excellent start brethren! BTW, I don’t have the definitive answer either! Still working on it. LOLOL

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I have been reading the Old Testament for 34 years. I cant recall seeing a scripture that says God is nothing like what he has revealed in his word. Im glad I dont see God like that.

We dont do that. Its already been done for us in the book called the Bible. We can only believe what is written. It is in unbelief of scripture that God becomes unknowable.

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The question is somehow implying that God is unable to be known to us. Therefore it all comes down to faith.

Re: Defining God
 

Excellent. We "know" a great deal about God in terms of our own self knowledge and perception of creation. Even so, God knows each one of us intimately, but we still lack an intimate knowledge of our creator. This lack of intimacy creates a number of relational issues for humans - and makes discussing God and His nature rather difficult.

Faith (our hope, trust and confidence) in the revealed creator is the starting point in establishing a viable relationship with Him - and in this process, we can begin to discover more about the very nature of God, the who and what He truly is - that transcends our ability to comprehend Him without the use of anthropomorphic symbols.

So, cneasttx has brought us to the point of acknowledging two things concerning our discussing God: (1) We must know something about Him and (2) We must have (a measure of) faith in Him.

What then would be a good next step in being able to define (discuss) God? Or, what are some of the things that hinder such discussions?

Re: Defining God
 

I think Dr. Larry Crab has written a descent book "Finding God" that addresses a lot of these questions. I will post some info from his book later.

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Seek and ye shall find. To me the term "finding God" somehow imply's God is lost. In actuality I believe He chooses to "find" us. God did not sever a relationship with man, we did.

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What is wrong with anthropomophic symbols? They are found all throughout the Bible. I don't see how they can be avoided. Even God uses them to describe Himself so He can help us relate to Him.

Deut 32: 39 See now that I, even I, am he, and there is no god with me: I kill, and I make alive; I wound, and I heal: neither is there any that can deliver out of my hand. 40 For I lift up my hand to heaven, and say, I live for ever.

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This reply may not be exactly directed at your question, but I think it will aid us in our search. The Lord Jesus is the "Heart Knower". (Stanley Horton) I am not, but I do believe that one of the purposes of your question could be that we are not too dogmatic with what knowledge we do have.

Norman Geisler in his book Christian Apologetics writes:

This leaves us with three basic alternatives with repect to knowledge about God. First, we can know nothing about God; he is unknowable. Second, we can know everything about God; he is completely and exhaustively knowable. Third, we can know something about God but not everything ; he is partially knowable. The first position we will call agnosticism; the second dogmatism; and the last, realism. (p. 20)

According to this definition, I would say that we are all realist. We depend upon the Word of God and the Spirit of God to gives us our knowledge of God. As Paul writes, we know in part (I Cor 13:12). Thus, we cannot ever become too dogmatic.

Re: Defining God
 

Very good - perhaps that will assist us all! Thanks.

Re: Defining God
 

Re: Defining God
 

God has human psychology down pat!

One of the purposes of the Son of God was to reveal the Father to us. So we might know God and how God expects us to live through Christ more perfectly.

Re: Defining God
 

25 At that time Jesus answered and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes.
26 Even so, Father: for so it seemed good in thy sight.
27 All things are delivered unto me of my Father: and no man knoweth the Son, but the Father; neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son will reveal him. Matthew 11:25-27

10 Ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.
11 I, even I, am the LORD; and beside me there is no saviour. Isaiah 43:10-11

6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called the Angel of great counsel, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.
7 Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever. The zeal of the LORD of hosts will perform this. Isaiah 9:6-7

23 Thus saith the LORD, Let not the wise man glory in his wisdom, neither let the mighty man glory in his might, let not the rich man glory in his riches:
24 But let him that glorieth glory in this, that he understandeth and knoweth me, that I am the LORD which exercise lovingkindness, judgment, and righteousness, in the earth: for in these things I delight, saith the LORD.
Jeremiah 9:23, 24

20 And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, even in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life. 1 John 5:20

Re: Defining God
 

I truly appreciate the comments offered to date, but we are still sailing around on the surface. That is, discussing things "about God" and concerning God, but moving away from the addressing the original question.

Even the issue of using anthropomorphisms to describe our God is only an initial step in this process. Again, I refer back to the original question.

Who here, actually knows God and can describe Him in terms of God's own reality, rather than our own finite limits? Who has looked into the eyes of infinity with understanding and wisdom?

What I am looking for is the process for transitioning from spiritually childish concepts to the mature understand of who and what God actually is. Not the old man on a cloud picture for five year olds, and not the "mighty hand of God" for those who know not that God is Spirit, I know a number of people who know a lot about Abraham Lincoln and George Washiton, even to what that ate at different meals, but I never met anyone who actually knew these men.

So, let us turn our attention back to spiritual realities and concepts that approach the infinite. Those of us who claim to know know God should also have the ability to describe Him. Looking for a pat answer, such as, "its in the Bible" will not make it - by its self. Including Book chapter, verse(s) presented with translation/interpretation and application would also be required.

Therefore, let us begin anew.

How can one define (describe) God in both personal and spiritually meaningful terms that demonstrate a comprehensive understanding of God’s true nature and His relationship to His creation?

Re: Defining God
 

1)I know God on a personal level because He is in me.

2)I know Him personally because of what He has done in my life.

3)I also know of Him, what He likes and dislikes, His attributes through His word.

4)I can see His "fingerprints" in creation.

5)I know Him because Christ, His Son, makes Him known.

There's much more I could say, but I'm not sure what you want. So why don't you start us off by answering your own question and define God.

Re: Defining God
 

Well, according to scriptures the ancients did have an intimate relationship with God. Adam communed with God, Enoch walked with God, Noah obeyed God, Abraham believed God, David sought the heart of God, etc. Even before Christ was revealed, God was known intimately to those who He chose to reveal himself to. Albeit, a select few.

When Eli chastised his sons for their wickedness, he said something interesting...he said...1 Sam. 2:5 If a man sins against another man, God may mediate for him; but if a man sins against the LORD, who will intercede for him?"

This was God's cry to Israel through Ezekiel..."And I sought for a man among them, that should make up the hedge, and stand in the gap before me for the land, that I should not destroy it: but I found none."

That "man" was to be Christ, the intercessor, the hight priest. However, he had not yet been given to humanity and because Christ was "unknown" death reigned supreme and judgment was swift. Yet, Eli sons did not know God, they were children of Beliel.

Having said that, all we know about God can be found in Christ; for in him dwelt all the fullness of the Godhead bodily.

When Jesus said..."if you've seen me you have seen the father", he was revealing God through him. God is nothing apart from Christ Jesus.

Therefore, because we have been given Christ, we can know God. A personal intimate relationship with the lover of our souls. Sadly, too many Christians view God separate from Christ. They embrace the God of the Old and refuse to embrace Christ of the new. However, God is nothing without Christ and Christ is nothing without God.

In Oneness minded churches, the mantra is "Jesus is God", and while their is truth in that statement, the truth is missed through the denial of God's son.

The teaching of God's son is absent in many of these environments and subsequently individuals are forced into a relationship with God absent of Jesus the Christ which leads to a performance based relationship.

We can know God through Jesus Christ. All God was and is can be found in Christ. By developing a relationship with Jesus, we develop a relationship with the God..."Elohim" Maranatha!!!

Re: Defining God
 

Great question!

The first thought as I read the many comments posted here in response, had to begin with answering the question - Is it even possible for imperfect mortal man to really know and understand God, or has He chosen to limit the degree of knowledge we might attain concerning Him, His character, attributes, and the underlying purpose for creation? After some searching I believe one can answer this question positively by reliance upon the things found recorded within the context of the following passages:

"Thus saith the LORD, Let not the wise man glory in his wisdom, neither let the mighty man glory in his might, let not the rich man glory in his riches: but let him that glorieth glory in this, that he understandeth and knoweth me, that I am the LORD which exercise lovingkindness, judgment, and rightesousness, in the earth: for in these things I delight, saith the LORD." (Jeremiah 9:23-24)

As made unmistakenly clear by these words, yes, we can KNOW and UNDERSTAND God! Indeed, as we read the opening words of Genesis 1:1, and discover that it was God who created all things in the beginning, then it should become apparent that chief among the initial steps one must undertake to accomplish (that is, if they do truly desire to acquire knowledge of all things), is to learn something about God - who, what, where is He, and how might I truly come to KNOW and UNDERSTAND Him? It would seem, to me at least, that in the absence of confronting and answering this important question, all other efforts to properly comprehend the contents of the Bible would be expended in vain. This is why I find this discussion to be of such great interest, for it brings to the fore the very first step one must take in seeking to fulfill the first and greatest commandment - to love God with all of our being (see Mark 12:30).

At the moment my time is rather limited, however, I shall attempt to add further comments to this important topic later, perhaps yet this afternoon.

Re: Defining God
 

While attempting to draft a reply post, this one [by staysharp] gets published! Thank you.

Now, for the post I was working on - -

Re: Defining God
 

Right!

From post number 6, "BTW, I don’t have the definitive answer either! Still working on it."

This thread is not about trick questions, it is about how does one move beyond Heb 6:1 ¶ Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works {useless rituals}, and of faith toward God, {principles...: or, word of the beginning of} 2 Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment. 3 And this will we do, if God permit.

What is being demonstrated so far, is that none of us really know how to progress beyond the elementary concepts of God. For example, this thread has received a lot of attention, but except for a very few brave souls, no one has ventured into the discussion. Another example: We banter around conceptual terms such as God is love, holy, righteous, just, etc. We might ask, If God is love, define the term. What do we get? Answers like God sent His son to die for (redeem) us. However, this is really only an expression of God's love, not a definition. WE might find quotes from 1Cor 13. Love is .....

This "love chapter" is most likely the closest we can get to defining love. However, from experience, we can also conclude that very few people actually understand or accept this definition simply because so few folks practice it! This, in spite of Paul declaring that it is "a more excellent way" of living the Christian life. Further, this chapter is almost never taught with God being the object of the term! Of course, God is more than just "love". Therefore, what we must do, in order to move beyond our current mode of our thinking (concrete bounds of perceiving creation/reality) is embrace a more conceptual world view.

Therefore, as requested, I will be posting my own attempt at answering the question within the next day or two. But, this should not detour others from expressing their own thoughts on the subject.

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Yet another post slipping in while I was drafting my earlier reply.

Another wonderful precept. I see progress being made and looking forward to your further contribution to this discussion.

Re: Defining God
 

I have looked at the Larry Crabb book and he really addresses the problems within us that keep us doubting. Thus, when one has doubt he or she cannot seek The LORD properly. If anyone is interested in that type of information just let me know and I will post a brief summary.

Re: Defining God
 

Please post away! You might also post a link for ordering the book - for those who might be interested.

Re: Defining God
 

Re: Defining God
 

Good post Sam. It not as hard as some want to make it. I am reminded of the Apostle who said some are ever learning but never coming to the knowledge of the truth.

Re: Defining God
 

there is a "ginosko" Knowing (where the church as the body of Christ is at in glory at this present time); ...then God will move the church from glory to the next step of glory, an "epiginosko" knowing when that which is perfect is come, being known as we are known, face to face; however, Jesus knew the Father perfectly in all things which is "eido"....

you go Sam and Michael....:bliss

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Perhaps it is as easy as believing that "He is". Perhaps the blasphemy is in our making God into our own image by proclaiming that we KNOW God, and while I do not believe that we can know God in that capacity (fully) we can know some things about him (his wishes, for instance). Here's the big question - if we can't know each other completely unless we are open to one another, and even then we maintain privacy from one another, can we completely know He who created us?

I can't help but think about my marriage. My wife and I know one another and the way we know each other isn't about lists and pretentious explorations of what to do's and what not to do's, rather our relationship is based on living with one another and learning from that life about one another. The purpose of our lives together isn't rules and regulations but about living - learning happens automatically and naturally. I've had friends in the past whose marriages were based on rules and regulations with pretentious, contrived, rituals - their marriages usually failed. But in these relationships, either one or both weren't committed to the other fully so there was no KNOWING of the other person - only a farce of love or marriage.

Perhaps the answer to defining God isn't about definition but about seeking, knocking, and asking. I saw a cartoon the other day that showed a guy sitting at a desk, books piled about him, with Jesus standing beside him. The guy at the desk looks to Jesus and said, "Can you come back in a few hours? I'm trying to get to know you better." Reminds me of myself. The need to know Jesus and trying to do so with books and commentaries alone.

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LOLOL Love ya Nate!

Sometimes definitions are not about words, but about relationship and how one expresses himself within the context of that relationship.

Now we are getting down to it!

Re: Defining God
 

Ok

I am sorry that I have been so long in replying back to the post. A brief summary of Dr. Crabb's thoughts:

He basically goes about finding God through Hebrews 11:6, yet he brings out barriers that often impede us from developing our faith. The seven phases that we go thru (which he illustrates as a building which stacks up like a pyramid) are I Doubt God (basic foundation of lack of finding God), I Need You, I Hate You, I Hate Me, But I Will Survive, and Here's How I Will Survive. His basic belief is that we have to relinquish/have right perspective of all of these self securities in order to whole heartdly seek God. The book is called "Finding God" by Larry Crabb (1993) Zondervan.

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Thank you.

I will be posting my thought by this week end. I too have been overcome by life and haven't gotten around to putting all of my ideas on paper.

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I must admit that that I was having a difficult time of it in coming up with an appropriate answer to my own question. Namely, because of all of the responses I have received on the several forums I posted on, few were the number who actually addressed the question – and that was a serious distraction for me. The original question was:

“How can one define (describe) God in both personal and spiritually meaningful terms that demonstrate a comprehensive understanding of God’s true nature and His relationship to His creation?”

In discussing this problem with a few friends, we ran headlong into a paradox.

R. Yanki Tauber wrote the following, The paradox being that we are to know God, but we can only know Him on our own terms – not His!

This is how the 15th century Rabbi Meir ibnGabbai explains it: He also says, The Bible starts us out with the most basic material for understanding who and what God is. That is, He has an existence that can be both perceived and an existence that is beyond perception (even comprehension). Even in while residing in heaven we have a glimpse of His form (Job 1:6-8; Isa 6:1-4; Da 7:9, 13 &22; Rev 4:2), even as the angles in heaven have a perceived form, including Satan (Job 1:6-8; Isa 6:5-8, Rev 5:2, 7:2, etc.). Of course, there are the many theophanies of God recorded in the holy text, which supplies God with a very tangible “reality” within our finite universe. Also, we must remember is that even heaven is a created place and that it shall be removed (Re 21:1). Therefore, it should not come as a surprise that all of the objects and occupants of heaven should also have (or exhibit) physical forms, including the dead in Christ (See Rev 7).

However, even with these descriptions of spiritual things, we are left without an adequate vocabulary to describe a man or an angel, much less God. That is, we do not understand the relationship between our soul, our spirit or our bodies (we cannot really describe these human elements), although we know and understand our bodies the best (1Th 5:23). We do not know nor understand how these three separate, independent elements unite to form a single, unique, integrated (oneness) human being, where, if we remove any one element we cease to exist as a living person. As to “knowing God”: We are left with a process.

Is it “wrong” to conceptualize God as a corporal being? Of course not. That is the elementary expression of God in relation to His creation. I submit, however, that it should be our starting point in growing in spiritual knowledge. No matter how far we mature spiritually, we continually fall short of conceptualizing God according to His true reality/mode of existence, which co-exists in both inside and outside the finite, that is, He is the embodiment of the infinite. His true nature exists outside of our logic (reason) or experience (emotions). What we are left with is (hopefully) a growing desire and ability to abstract our knowledge and experience of God into concepts that push our finite boundaries further into the spiritual universe, so that the finite and infinite begin to merge into a single reality. See:1Cor 2:6-3:4