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I have a serious question ?
Hi Everyone,I'm a little new to this forum and have a question for everyone.Please try to stick to the subject because I believe the Church has a serious problem.Please be serious about your answers.
I left UPCI in 1970 but left for greater holiness standards.My question is why do most people who leave let their standards down when the word teaches holiness and with out holiness no one can see the Lord ? Do these people really think they can be saved without obeying the word ? I mean why do they even mess with Church when they will be lost in the end ? Are they really deceived into believing they are really saved ? Do they not study the word for themselves and just let the blind leaders lead them ? I know some UPCI Church assemblies try to put standards of men on people but i'm not talking about mans standards,i'm talking about Jesus and the true apostolic standards as written in the word.Do people really think they can live any life and believe any lie and be saved ? |
I am confused as to what stndards you are talking about that are written in the word. Sorry.
Would you mind pointing me to that reference please. |
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Its called rationalization, every man does what is right in his OWN eyes. That is why there is a de-emphasis on all things biblical, and a greater emphasis on how God makes you FEEL. |
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Joelel, The problem is the definition of holiness. God is holy. Jesus is God. There is not one scripture to support the definition of holiness as it applies to dress standards. The nature and character of God is what Christians should seek after but men have always wanted to prove their righteousness by comparing themselves to others instead. We cannot make ourselves holy by making more and more rules and laws to live by or the Old Testament Law would have been enough. It is much too easy for people to get the concept of putting on Christ's righteousness through his imputed grace. They would rather bicker on forums trying to boast their greatness for all the holiness standards the profess to live by. Blessings, Rhoni |
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Hbr 12:14 Follow peace with all [men], and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord: Alright... biblically speaking... what is holiness. We can begin there. |
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1 cor.15:33: Be not deceived: evil communications corrupt good manners. 2Tim2:16: But shun profane and vain babblings: for they will increase unto more ungodliness. 1 Thes.5:22: Abstain from all appearance of evil. |
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Paul was talking to people who were doubting that there had been a resurrection... They had been talking to people who had corrupted their doctrine and had caused them to doubt the very resurrection. The bible is not a hand puppet that we can insert our will into and make it say whatever we want it to say. |
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[19] I speak after the manner of men because of the infirmity of your flesh: for as ye have yielded your members servants to uncleanness and to iniquity(Sin) unto iniquity; even so now yield your members servants to righteousness unto holiness. [22] But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life 2Cor.7 [1] Having therefore these promises, dearly beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God Keep fruit in mind. [19] Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, [20] Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, [21] Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God. [22] But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, [23] Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law. [24] And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts |
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Gal.5:19: Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,20: Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,21: Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God 24: And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts 1 Cor.6:9: Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,(Homosexuals)10: Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God |
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It don't make any differance who it was written to evil communications corrupt good manners.Yours too. |
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Joelel,
I would submit to you that most of us who left the UPC and legislated so called "holiness" standards very much believe in holiness as the bible actually speaks about it and also in living godly lives based on Christian principles. The problem is that folks like you equate a laundry list of corporate rules and dresscode as "holiness" when it is not. Not to mention the incredibile leaps in logic and misapplication of scriptures to come up with some of old time Pentecosts hobby horses like prohibitions against makeup on women, etc. I do not believe I am deluded. I believe you are. |
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:thumbsup |
I dont agree with your premis.
you said people leave then drop their standards. I dont think that is accurate. I think people decide they dont agree with the standards being taught, and that leads them to leaving. I do believe that we often see folk who leave over standards, eventually change their doctrine. It seems to me this is the natural progression. |
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Where in the Bible Did Jesus himself; give or teach an example of Holiness? Where did he clarify the specific holiness that he specifically referred to when he "Jesus" , spoke about being holy. |
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[1] This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come. [2] For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy, [3] Without natural affection, trucebreakers, false accusers, incontinent, fierce, despisers of those that are good, [4] Traitors, heady, highminded, lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God; [5] Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away. |
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Maybe you can help me out. I see idolaters... adulterers... drunkards... wrath.... strife... hatred... All of those things are evil and all of those things are ways of unholiness. I still don't see any of the standards you are saying we are leaving behind. i hold to all of these standards. |
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What person who made the move you are talking about left any of the standards listed in these verses? The problem is you define the word of God by your paradigm rather than defining your paradigm by the word of God. |
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You should read the word and let it define your thinking rather than letting your thinking define the word of God. |
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I find it very enjoyable when he gets into the science of it I also find it comforting to know that a good meal is never more than thirty minutes away. :) |
So if a life is producing the fruit of the spirit, then that is a holy life?
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But... to answer your question... If a life is producing the fruit of the spirit then it is understood that the spirit of God is not only within... but alive... and thriving well enough to produce actual fruit. |
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[68] Blessed be the Lord God of Israel; for he hath visited and redeemed his people, [69] And hath raised up an horn of salvation for us in the house of his servant David; [70] As he spake by the mouth of his holy prophets, which have been since the world began: [71] That we should be saved from our enemies, and from the hand of all that hate us; [72] To perform the mercy promised to our fathers, and to remember his holy covenant; [73] The oath which he sware to our father Abraham, [74] That he would grant unto us, that we being delivered out of the hand of our enemies might serve him without fear, [75] In holiness and righteousness before him, all the days of our life. |
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Joelel,
If you have become more holy then what the UPC teaches then why are you on the internet? |
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SPECIFICS PLEASE???? ALSO!!!!! THAT IS NOT JESUS SPEAKING!!!! |
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Just wondering,do you ? 1 Cor.13:4: Charity suffereth long, and is kind; charity envieth not; charity vaunteth not itself, is not puffed up,5: Doth not behave itself unseemly, seeketh not her own, is not easily provoked, thinketh no evil 2 Cor.10:3: For though we walk in the flesh, we do not war after the flesh:4: (For the weapons of our warfare are not carnal, but mighty through God to the pulling down of strong holds;)5: Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ; Philp.4:8: Finally, brethren, whatsoever things are true, whatsoever things are honest, whatsoever things are just, whatsoever things are pure, whatsoever things are lovely, whatsoever things are of good report; if there be any virtue, and if there be any praise, think on these things.9: Those things, which ye have both learned, and received, and heard, and seen in me, do: and the God of peace shall be with you. Phip.2:5: Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus: Eph.4:21: If so be that ye have heard him, and have been taught by him, as the truth is in Jesus:22: That ye put off concerning the former conversation the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts;23: And be renewed in the spirit of your mind; 24: And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness |
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