Disturbing Incident~Spiritual Immaturity~
 

Background: I was recently involved in a church discipline situation dealing with a couple that have numerous run-ins with other members of the church, even to the point of threatening and attempting physical violence. The church leadership has on numerous attempts tried to help them, counseling, leadership restrictions, etc. This church is a non-UPC church, but adheres to the basic UPC doctrines of Salvation and view of God. There isn't a culture of outward holiness standards, but a typical orthodox OP church. Some members come from the UPC, some through other streams of Christian faith.

Here is the disturbing incident, yours truly (Cookin-with-Stoneking) sat in with a Pastor to discuss the latest incident with this angry couple. After listening to the couple yell out their one-sided perspective about how another family in the church has done them wrong, out to undermine their latest business venture and how that the Pastor did not intervene or doing anything to prevent it.

After hearing the Pastor say that it wasn't the way that he saw it, the man jumped up, screamed I am out of here, proceeded to kick a trash can, kick the door, all the time screaming obscenities and profanity at the Pastor, saying to him as well that your no man of God, you're ******, you're trash and I don't have respect for you and if you were not a OLD MAN I would come over there and put you in your place.

The Pastor most likely unwise to do so told the man Goodbye and waved his hand, this inflamed the man more and he charged the man, to assault the Pastor, yours truly did his best to stand in the way of the rather large angry man. This did work to deter him from psychically assaulting him, but then he said that he was leaving and proceeded to grab some personnel sound equipment that he left at the church.

Now what was most disturbing as the man was leaving he proceeded to cuss out the Pastor for having those (bad word) Trinitarians and other (bad word) around here (a large singing family of AOG lineage was at the church recently doing a concert).

What a disconnect!

This family had no problem being rebellious, threaten physical violence against an elder minister, cursing all long angry that Trinitarians were ministering in the church.


It left me wandering what kind of disciples are we producing, they know doctrine, confess to have the HG but have become a habitation of demons when it comes to personal relationships and getting along with others. This preacher is quite disturbed.

Was this an isolated event or a symptom of a real disconnect between the weightier matters in the spiritual life of a present day believers?

Re: Disturbing Incident~Spiritual Immaturity~
 

Sounds to me like this person needs to go pray and get right. I went off on a preacher once. We were in a Wendy's when it happened. I caught his wife plotting with my wife to get me out of the house. When I confronted the situation, she denied it. When I finally got to speak with the preacher about it, he insisted we meet right then and there to discuss it. I kept telling him he needed to let me calm down some before we talked about it, but he continued to insist on meeting. The worst thing in the world anyone can do is try to talk to me when I am angry. Ya just have to let me calm down, and come back to a place of reason before you try talking about whatever it is that set me off. Anyway, this preacher thought he was man enough to ride Rico the Bucking Bronco and found himself thrown right off. Even still, I had to pray over going off on him. I didn't cuss at him (surprise, surprise), but I definitely went off on him and his wife for sticking their big nose somewhere it didn't belong.

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In my opinion, that man does not reflect all Oneness Pentecostals.

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I agree, and I hope my posts don't reflect that, but it was disturbing to see a person treat another person partly fueling his anger by so called fellowship with a trinitarian singing group. But it is clear this family has issues.

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The first thing I think about when I hear a man doing everything that he did and then complaining about "trinitarians" is to think about the often quoted story about a UC minister having an affair at a hotel, then complaining about the television in the room.

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I share that opinion.

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It happens and I've heard worse. There have been more than one incident of people even getting shot to death at church.

we had to call the cops more than once.

my father pastored for 47 years and the things I can remember are astounding. Once there was an incident that you described and the man told my dad to(*****) and had to be restrained etc. Let me tell you, we see him around town pushing a cart, he's homeless, lives under a bridge adn his teeth are rotted out of his head from Drugs. You just give it time and watch and see what happens to people like this who wont repent.

we once had a man who got mad at the church and started spraying graffitti on our new church building. this went on for over a year. we knew who it was but we did nothing but Pray. I am not kidding, he ended up with a bullet in his head, murdered.

I know it can shatter your nerves, but we have no other choice but to trust in God. we just lost a 25 yr old in Iraq. sometimes I have to catch myself asking God "why one of ours" but I'm going to believe that God knows the beginning from the end better then we do

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I'd say he's backslidden in his heart and is in a fearful place.
Pastors are always burdened with trying to reach for the lost, disciple the new and feed the older... many times those who've been around the Church of God for a long time, forget that they are supposed to be teachers and still need milk themselves.

Then there are the just plain nut-cases.

Re: Disturbing Incident~Spiritual Immaturity~
 

Now that is a real disconnect!

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CWS and Mark, check your posts for cursing as per the rules of AFF.

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Appreciate your input, God is definetly in control

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It was not gratitious, but for realism.

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was it against the rules how I worded it?? I thought i was careful.

one of the admins will let me know I'm sure

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I understand.
Still for the case of not being reported to Admin and maybe receiving an infraction, if you can't edit they would probably be happy to edit for you.

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Just don't want y'all to maybe get an infraction for it Mark.

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CWS, I think this is way beyond a case of spiritual immaturity.

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yikes! it would be my second one in a week LOL

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I changed the posts.

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Just goes to show knowledge of facts does not equal conversion.

People like that spend their time judging and criticizing others while neglecting their own spiritual needs

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I agree.
This is more like spiritual corruption than spiritual immaturity.

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Sounds to me this man and his family were just following Jesus for the loaves and fishes, and not for His Word.

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Thank God he did not hurt anyone.

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Like Mark pointed out, God takes care of problems like this in His own way and in His own time. I have seen people who disrespected men and women of God, and ended up in dire straits because they were unrepentant and rebellious.

I'm not talking about situations where an angry preacher threatened the wrath of God because someone dared disagree with him--I'm talking about ACTUAL cases where people have been reduced to nothing, financially, physically, and otherwise, because they treated Christians, (elders or not) with disrespect and worse.

That's nothing to rejoice over, btw, but it is true that you WILL reap what you sow, God sees to it that His laws are fulfilled. Repentance and God's grace is the only way to overturn that "law."

A very wise elder of mine once told me to never seek revenge, because if we seek our own revenge, God doesn't have to (or won't) take up our cause. I don't know how true that is, or scriptural, but I do think we are better off if we leave it to God to sort out.

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But is this because they disrespected "men and women of God" as opposed to those Pentecostals consider to be NOT men and women of God? Or is it because they are simply unrepented

Amen. Thank you. But still is it because of the disrespect or because of the lingering repentance and rebellion

This is true, however it might be damaging for an offended party to wait around for something to happen. We have to move on in a lot of cases and that might mean finding another church in some

Amen. I think God looks at many of our "situations" as petty. He wants us to move on to perfection.

In my experience I had a situation with a pastor. He was a great man of God and I loved him dearly. But I had something happen between us. It was really hard on me and I held a grudge for a long time. But I always knew this was wrong, even if I was wronged and he was in the wrong. I had to get over it.

I was praying and praying. One day, as I was heading toward an alter call I looked over at him and I just quickly thought to the Lord "Am I wrong or is he wrong!?!" and the Lord spoke to me clear as day and said very simply "Forgive him".

God did not justify myself or my pastor. What was important was forgiveness and to move on. I got the total victory that day. Praise God. The truth is nobody is perfect and people we love are going to do or say things that hurt us and vice versa. Unless it is something repetitive the best thing in situations like that is to get the victory and stay there and help that church. If you leave without getting the victory it will be like a spirit that follows you everywhere you go.

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What a sad story.I think that family leaving is the best thing that could happen for that church and pastor.

Some people are just tools of the enemy to sow discord and strife. It is obvious there was no heart for God in this man. It is amazing to me that people like that exist who on the one hand can gripe about a pastor having trinitarian singers in the pulpit while cursing up a storm in the complaining and not see anything wrong with that!

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Definitely. The other issue though is: Was this man or his family ever saved to begin with? If so what happened? If not, how are we allowing people to become part of our congregation thinking they are saved when they never were.

On that note you all should watch those videos I posted. This baptist preacher is raising a stink in the evangelical world by calling the sinners prayer a heresy

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I think so, too. Sounds more like a person who has some very serious spiritual, emotional, and perhaps, mental issues.

I had an incident happen one time that was similar to Rico's except it was another church member getting on my case in the parking lot about my "slamming" of a door on the church. I wasn't even aware that I had "slammed" any doors, but I had walked out of the church in a really bad frame of mind in the middle of service and was extremely upset about some things that were going on (mostly unrelated to church) when this guy came out and got on me about that sacred door. I started off by telling him to just leave me alone, but the more he harped on me, the louder I got. I have NEVER in my life felt so much like punching someone, but controlled myself...and did not curse him.

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Hopefully this person wasn't involved in any church ministry or office, having that kind of spirit.

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A man or woman of God is just that because of what God thinks about them. I would think you would know that, Prax. :coffee2

It's both. You place yourself in a dangerous position by showing disrespect in the first place, and if you refuse to repent, you're placing yourself in a much worse position, as far as God is concerned.

I never said someone had to "wait around." But I don't think you should return evil for evil, or even (necessarily) make sure the other person is met with justice.

Repentance and forgiveness are very important, but I do agree that we can forgive, for our own sanity and relationship with God, even if another person doesn't ask us for forgiveness.

I think all of us can lose our tongues from time to time, smart off, be flippant, etc., that's not what I'm talking about. Although it's important to make sure you apologize if you do lose your temper. The scenario presented is extreme, and I think God will react with the same extremity most of the time, unless they repent of their actions.

I do believe that we are to be especially respectful to ministers and elders. I think scripture bears that out both verbatim and in principle. What I will say to my peers, I will not say to my pastor without his allowance for me to speak my mind. And then I will make sure I speak it respectfully.

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You are right. Scripture says not to touch the anointed of God and do His prophets no harm. It also says vengeance is the Lord's. If you leave it in God's hand, He will whip up on those people harder than we ever could. I would never wish bad to anyone, but they do reap what they sow. Someone gave my pastor big trouble and that person is now dying of cancer.

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I'm not sure why you felt to interject that to me.

How do we know what God thinks about anyone in order that we can call them a man or woman of God? Is it that they are pastor's wives? Is it that they have a title? Can a joe schmoe in any church that prays daily, reads the word and prays for others but does not preach be a man or woman of God?

I don't think I was suggesting you said this.

I think we are to be mutually respectful to everyone. However we are to give some people more honor than others. That might be reflected in how we respect them. Clearly the bible speaks of not accusing an elder under certain circumstances.

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Yes...however if we are ALL filled with the Spirit of God...the same Spirit then aren't we ALL "The Anointed OF God"?

1Jn 2:27 But the anointing that you received from him abides in you, and you have no need that anyone should teach you. But as his anointing teaches you about everything--and is true and is no lie, just as it has taught you--abide in him.

Kings were anointed and that verse usually quoted referred to the kings of Israel. David would do Saul no harm though Saul was wrong and David had been anointed King already.

But the bible says we are a kingdom of Priests. We will rule and reign with Christ.

We should touch not anyone not just pastors or elders. We should have mutual respect for each other as brothers and sisters in Christ...a class of Priests

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Actually, your post is somewhat encouraging to me. It sounds like the the leadership stayed calm and did the right thing - in spite of the evil being done to them. Also, what if leadership themselves were the ones with this attitude?

Sounds like the church is doing the right thing... don't credit them for producing a tare among the wheat.