Did Jesus "need" Judas? Did Judas "betray" Jesus?
 

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Prologue - The Sovereignty of God
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Last Wednesday night a visiting preacher told us that “God needed Judas to carry out His plan of salvation’. His statement has remained in my mind although it was made in passing. His message that night was on the sovereignty of God.

Romans 11:33-36 reads:

O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out!
For who hath known the mind of the Lord? or who hath been his counsellor?

Or who hath first given to him, and it shall be recompensed unto him again?

For of him, and through him, and to him, are all things: to whom be glory for ever. Amen.


One Christian writer describing the sovereignty of God says:

Quote:

We see this in many Scriptures. Ephesians 1:11 says "we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to His purpose who works all things after the counsel of His will..." First, notice that God works, or in other words "brings about," all things. Everything is brought about by God. Second, notice that God does this according to His own plan, "the counsel of His will." This plan was not governed by anything external to his own will. It is "the counsel of His will." Thus, "God both chooses what will happen and also works it out according to his plan."[2] Thus, all things have their source in God's eternal decrees, all things are brought to pass by God's almighty power, and all things have as their ultimate goal God's glory. In Proverbs 21:1 we read "The king's heart is like channels of water in the hand of the Lord; He turns it wherever He wishes." Daniel 4:35 says "And all the inhabitants of the earth are accounted as nothing, but He does according to His will in the host of heaven and among the inhabitants of earth; and no one can ward off His hand or say to Him, `What hast Thou done?'"[3] Since God controls all things, this means that evil is also under the control of God. We see this explicitly in many verses. Psalm 105:25, speaking of the Egyptians in the time period of the Exodus, says that God "turned their heart to hate His people, to deal craftily with His servants." In Isaiah 10:5-15 we read of how God used the wicked nation of Assyria to carry out his judgements upon Israel. In Deuteronomy 2:30 we read "But Sihon king of Heshbon was not willing for us to pass through his land; for the Lord your God hardened his spirit and made his heart obstinate, in order to deliver him into your hand, as he is today." The crucifixion of Christ, which was the most sinful human act in all of history, was said to have been according to "the predetermined plan and foreknowledge of God" even though it was "by the hands of godless men" that Christ was put to death (Acts 2:23; see also 4:28).[4]

And yet we know He is not the author of sin….

Re: Did Jesus "need" Judas? Did Judas "betray" Jes
 

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For discussion
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Here’s the crux of the matter (and please don't think I've formulated any conclusions based on what I am submitting for discussion):

Many philosophers, Gnostics, atheists and even some Christians believe that the commonly held beliefs of what Judas represents in mainstream Christian theology produces the following dilemma:



1. Jesus had foreknowledge of Judas' future actions:

The bible says:

But there are some of you who do not believe. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were who did not believe, and who it was that would betray Him. (NASB) John 6:64

2. Jesus Chose Judas. Yet, Jesus chose Judas Iscariot as a disciple anyway,

Jesus answered them, "Did I Myself not choose you, the twelve, and yet one of you is a devil?" Now He meant Judas the son of Simon Iscariot, for he, one of the twelve, was going to betray Him. (NASB) John 6:71

3. Jesus reveals the reason for Judas' future betrayal

Why Jesus Chose Judas. The main reason Jesus chose Judas is given to us in John 13:18-22,

I do not speak of all of you. I know the ones I have chosen; but it is that the Scripture may be fulfilled, 'HE WHO EATS MY BREAD HAS LIFTED UP HIS HEEL AGAINST ME.' . . . He became troubled in spirit . . . and said, "Truly, truly, I say to you, that one of you will betray Me." The disciples began looking at one another, at a loss to know of which one He was speaking. (NASB) John 13:18-22
It was done so that the prophecies of old would be fulfilled.
The prophecy quoted here is Psalm 41:9. Judas was such an evil man that John 17:12 tells us that Judas is the son of perdition.

While I was with them, I was keeping them in Thy name which Thou hast given Me; and I guarded them, and not one of them perished but the son of perdition, that the Scripture might be fulfilled. (NASB) John 17:

Also as part of the discussion ... I submit the argument made by some that Judas did not betray Jesus in the sense that is commonly held.

Various writers explain the two opposing views held by bible scholars as follows:

Quote:

Matthew 26:14-16 implies that Judas betrayed Jesus out of simple greed for the bribe money, whereas Luke 22:3 and John 13:27 suggest that the Devil entered into him and made him do it. But some biblical scholars have put forward another theory. They say that Judas wanted Jesus to lead a revolt against the Romans, and turned against him when it became clear that no revolt was planned.

Another writer brings to the table that the word betray is a mistranslation of the Greek text



In Spanish, our bibles don't use the English word betray but rather "to hand over" as indicated by the Greek word paradidomi

Simón el cananita y Judas Iscariote, quien le entregó

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Questions
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And the questions I bring, not pretending to have all the answers, ... before you are:

1. If the Judas' role in the Gospels was pre-ordained prophetically ... was it God's will for Judas to hand Jesus over? How does one reconcile this with free will?

2. If so, can it be argued that Jesus needed Judas? If so, how does one reconcile this with condemning Judas for this act that appears to be divinely pre-ordained?

3. Is our characterization of Judas fair when we vilify him as the one who betrayed Christ? Did not Peter betray him also? As did all those who were responsible for his crucifixion, including us, betray him? Or do you think is he fairly portrayed by most of Christianity?

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Re: Did Jesus "need" Judas? Did Judas "betray" Jes
 

A poster in another forum commented about this topic ....

Jim, as they say at ROL ... Well, c'mon now!!!

Back on topic ...

Re: Did Jesus "need" Judas? Did Judas "betray" Jes
 

blaspheme

Re: Did Jesus "need" Judas? Did Judas "betray" Jes
 

Is that a command? A comment? A concern?

Care to elaborate my sports junky friend?

Re: Did Jesus "need" Judas? Did Judas "betray" Jes
 

i believe myself he used Judas greed to facilitate his plan to be delivered to the jews and thus be crucified for our sins, so he used Judas, my opinion, glad to see you danny, how is that girl, dt

Re: Did Jesus "need" Judas? Did Judas "betray" Jes
 

1) God did not need Judas to betray him, there is a shadow set forth with this, the plot had been set long before the betrayal. All Judas did was divulge the location of Jesus, this situation was kind of like an "et tu Brute" type situation. There is no doubt without Judas it would have been fulfilled but with Judas we see the constant vacillation man faces. The hypocracy in Judas' heart is even more profound. Judas then hung himself, he wasn't banished to hell for selling Jesus, he even knew Jesus was aware of his upcoming betrayal. The fact is that Judas did not create the sentiment towards Jesus, he merely exposed his location.

2) God didn't need Judas, God didn't need Mary.

The irony is that Judas just had to wait a month before it wouldn't have mattered.

Re: Did Jesus "need" Judas? Did Judas "betray" Jes
 

The questions posed will be answered as an individual according to that individual's view of Calvinism.

Foreknowledge vs Predestined:

Free will vs puppet in a play.

Re: Did Jesus "need" Judas? Did Judas "betray" Jes
 

And your thoughts on the matter ....:girlytantrum

Re: Did Jesus "need" Judas? Did Judas "betray" Jes
 

Dan

I think the Father foreknew what was in the heart of Judas. Thus, he put Judas in the position where he was needed (like pharoh). Judas' heart was what it was. God needed that type of heart for that type of situation, so God placed Judas there. This does not negate Judas' will. If Judas would have repented and not turned Jesus over, there would have been another person with a similar unrepentant heart who would have been willing to sale his soul.

Re: Did Jesus "need" Judas? Did Judas "betray" Jes
 

Yeah, why not answer them then?

Re: Did Jesus "need" Judas? Did Judas "betray" Jes
 

Also Dan

It seems that you have been studying a little of R C Sproul.

Re: Did Jesus "need" Judas? Did Judas "betray" Jes
 

No ... I haven't read any of his stuff in-depth...

I haven't formulated anything on this definitively ... although I am in the Arminian camp

Simply... this discussion was sparked by the words of this preacher .... and some quotes I found on the net.

Some things are simply exercises to see how far our faith can stretch ...

There are holes in many of the views of Judas role in the Gospels ... even the more traditional view.

Re: Did Jesus "need" Judas? Did Judas "betray" Jes
 

I personally believe that predestination/free will is like the debate of dualism/materialism. They are debates that have no final conclusion. One can always find something wrong with either side.

Re: Did Jesus "need" Judas? Did Judas "betray" Jes
 

It was foreordained that Jesus was to be betrayed. Someone had to do it, but I do NOT think Judas was foreordained he fell by transgression Acts 1:25.
We know he became a thief Jn.12:9. Whatever his motives were Judas failed and since he failed he became the one ordained to fulfil this prophecy. Like God raising up Pharoah some sees that as predestination unto reprobation however God raising Pharoah up did NOT make him evil he was already evil and unrepented and God need such as him and used him. Judas was NOT born to betray Jesus or predestined to. Did God know he would certainly He is Omniscience.

Re: Did Jesus "need" Judas? Did Judas "betray" Jes
 

A very sound explanation Elder.

One poster on the topic adds:

Re: Did Jesus "need" Judas? Did Judas "betray" Jes
 

Dan I think some folks want this to be real mystical but to me it is like this in a carnal example sense you are more disposed to do computer stuff you get chosen not by foreordination but in foreordination someone with computer skills are need you are available thus you get the foreordained job. The job NOT the person is foreordained.

Re: Did Jesus "need" Judas? Did Judas "betray" Jes
 

My take on predestination is that things are predestined by God according to His foreknowledge of our choices. If we choose a certain way to live then God directs our paths according to bring about His justice and to maintain His law of reaping and sowing.

We know that from before the foundation of the world, the Lamb was slain. Before anything was created God knew the end of the whole matter. I'm not sure of the particulars, but I'm sure we have a free will because God is just and impartial. With this presupposition, God saw Judas BETRAY (kick up his heel against, was paid for turning Jesus over to the authorities) and ordained that it indeed would happen and nothing could then stop it. I don't think it is God's will for anyone to sin or disobey Him.

Gotta go. Later. :)

Re: Did Jesus "need" Judas? Did Judas "betray" Jes
 

Interesting perspective ... sis.

Re: Did Jesus "need" Judas? Did Judas "betray" Jes
 

bump

Re: Did Jesus "need" Judas? Did Judas "betray" Jes
 

IF God/Jesus did not need Judas to perform His will then He doesn't need us. I believe that when Jesus came from the womb His life pointed towards calvary. Not matter who and no matter what He was going there. Just like we are heading to our fate. That being said we need everyone in our life to touch us in a way that pushes us toward or into our fate/destiny. So it was with Jesus. God became flesh to fulfill the salvation process for us. Since we know that flesh was God in flesh He was still subject to the flesh, i.e. He was tempted like us. I believe Jesus needed Judas to betray Him in order to fullfil His plan just like he needed Peter to preach the sermon on Pentecost. He needed Judas just like He needed Barabas (son of the father) to be freed inorder from Him to die on the cross. He needed Judas just like He needs us to perform His good will or His good pleasure.

SORRY IF THAT INFO WAS A REPEAT

Re: Did Jesus "need" Judas? Did Judas "betray" Jes
 

The "SON OF HELL or PERDITION" are pretty powerful words!

If this was his choice... then why did Satan enter into him? Did Judas ask Satan to enter into him? We know that Judas was saved because Jesus said so..... Jesus told all his disciples to rejoice that their name was in the Lambs book of Life... therefore we know that Judas was saved....... but yet SATAN ENTERED INTO HIM.. he was called the "Son of Hell" one who is BORN OF HELL

Re: Did Jesus "need" Judas? Did Judas "betray" Jes
 

Our finite minds often have difficulty understanding the foreknowledge of God. This disparity causes some to equate God's foreknowledge with predetermining the actions or outcome of the individual. Because God knows the end from the beginning, he is able to see what choices we make. Yet in his unmeasurable love and mercy he continues to give us opportunity to accept him in spite of what he may already know about our end. That does not mean he predetermines our actions, nor does that make me pre-deposed to be saved or lost.

IMO the grace, mercy, and long-suffering (goodness) of God leadeth to repentance, so then in the foreknowledge of God he knew that Judas was going to be lost. Yet he came and walked with him, giving him every chance to believe and be saved.

Re: Did Jesus "need" Judas? Did Judas "betray" Jes
 

Now Bishop, think about those words..... lets imagine that the night before Judas betrayed Jesus... of his own will he decided against it... repented... NO ONE ELSE was in the position that he was in to fulfill prophecy..... So personally I do not believe he could have repented and NOT DONE what he did... he was born for this purpose "that scripture might be fulfilled"

So,,, who else is glad that Judas did not repent?

and what if he had..... who would have been in the position to fulfill the plan of God?

Re: Did Jesus "need" Judas? Did Judas "betray" Jes
 

:blah

The questions in this thread are so over discussed.

I don't mean the actual questions but the result of the question.... it is like someone just wants to keep rehashing the Calvinism debate. :drama

Re: Did Jesus "need" Judas? Did Judas "betray" Jes
 

Dr. Vaughn,

Do you then espouse to the idea that people are predetermined/predestined by God to be Lost/saved?

Re: Did Jesus "need" Judas? Did Judas "betray" Jes
 

Bishop

I espouse to the idea that God is God and he is Sovereign and just like he killed all the babies of the Amelekites he is Supreme Ruler and whatever he does or does not do will never be understood by the likes of mere humans....

Just yesterday my Son could not understand one of my decisions.. and granted my decision looked mighty unfair at the time... but he does not have my understanding nor my experience and therefore his continual questioning of my decision will only frustrate him more because it is not for him at his level to understand.. it is simply for him to accept....

So to answer your question, I absoutely believe that Judas was born to fulfill his destiny as the Son of Perdition or the SOn of Hell

I absolutely believe that a man named Adolf Hitler was born to be "the Hunter" that drove Gods people back to the LAND he had given unto them.... I absolutely believe that "Babylon was a golden cup in the Hand of the Lord" yes. that would be that evil babylon that destroyed Gods people.. yes I absolutely believe that "for this purpose did God raise Pharoah up" ......

However, I also believe that God in his foreknowledge knew the SPirits of these men and he knew their choices and with that foreknowledge raised them up to fulfill the roles that they had to play in the great Drama of Redemption

Watching my sons and their different character flaws, their imperfections.. I know where they are weak and where they are strong..... as I begin making decisions about their future I will do so with the understanding of what roles they will best fit in.... not because I am MAKING THEM fill those roles but because with my limited foreknowledge I can see the decisions they will make

Re: Did Jesus "need" Judas? Did Judas "betray" Jes
 

Dr. Vaughn are you saying salvation then would not be have been available to Judas, Hitler, etc. .... EVER?

Re: Did Jesus "need" Judas? Did Judas "betray" Jes
 

It would not be available to them in the fact that God knew they would never seek for it...

Re: Did Jesus "need" Judas? Did Judas "betray" Jes
 

This is much like the proverbial "which came first the chicken or the egg," the "could Jesus have sinned if he wanted too," the what if the prodigal son had never returned home" questions. The fact is that according to scripture the chicken came first, Jesus did not sin, and the prodigal son did return home. So also Pharaoh's heart was hardened, Judas betrayed Jesus, yet this does not establish whether God predetermined (caused/manipulated) them to commit their respective transgressions.

In my first post I mentioned that the foreknowledge of God does not violate man's freewill, (choice) rather it simply knows the end result of that freewill. While you and I agree that God knew the choices Pharaoh and Judas would make, and that God allowed them to fulfill specific roles in the course of his redemptive plan, to assume that this means they did not possess the "whosoever will" option is soteriologically dangerous. Why then preach to the "lost?" It appears that you believe that those destined to be saved/lost will be saved/lost regardless of their choices, thus fulfilling God's "warped" plan of good and evil.