Question For My Oneness Friends...
 

Read this passage of scripture carefully and think about what you're reading.

Rev 5:1 - 7:Then I saw in the right hand of him who sat on the throne a scroll with writing on both sides and sealed with seven seals. And I saw a mighty angel proclaiming in a loud voice, "Who is worthy to break the seals and open the scroll?" But no one in heaven or on earth or under the earth could open the scroll or even look inside it. I wept and wept because no one was found who was worthy to open the scroll or look inside. Then one of the elders said to me, "Do not weep! See, the Lion of the tribe of Judah, the Root of David, has triumphed. He is able to open the scroll and its seven seals." Then I saw a Lamb, looking as if it had been slain, standing in the center of the throne, encircled by the four living creatures and the elders. He had seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven spirits of God sent out into all the earth. He came and took the scroll from the right hand of him who sat on the throne.
NIV

A couple of questions. First of all, who is the Lamb? He's Jesus... I believe we can all agree on that, right?

But notice, it says that He (the Lamb, Jesus) came and took the scroll from the right hand of him who sat on the throne. Now who is it that's sitting on the throne that Jesus, the Lamb is taking the scroll from?

Just wondering what your answers may be...

Re: Question For My Oneness Friends...
 

Anyone still here???

Re: Question For My Oneness Friends...
 

If you're not Apostolic.....why did you join this forum? To try and change us????? Not changin'.

Re: Question For My Oneness Friends...
 

Great answer!!! That's about as sharp as a bowling ball!

Re: Question For My Oneness Friends...
 

That whole thing whole thing is picture of humanity and deity
NOT deity and deity because if you notice in verse 6 the lamb is dead.

God doesn't have a right hand- It means "power"

Right hand doesn't mean he's sitting in a certain position
it means power.

Re: Question For My Oneness Friends...
 

If the Lamb is dead, why does verse 7 plainly state that He came over and took the scroll from the right hand of him who sat on the throne? If He was dead, he'd have trouble coming over. Also, the Bible tells us that there is no DEATH in Heaven. Do you think that He walked over dead and took the scroll from Himself?

Also, I was always taught that God doesn't have a right hand as well in the UPC.

Re: Question For My Oneness Friends...
 

It's a picture of calvary( he was slain on the cross) "slain"

you can't have 2 gods there because one is slain

the picture here is the completion of the sonship- he came and died and now he's all and all - see Eph 5:27 says that he might present the church to himself (the work of calvary did that).

Re: Question For My Oneness Friends...
 

The picture here in Rev. 5 John sees Jesus as which was and which is and which is to come. John is seeing Jesus as NOT on the Judge but the mediator
the vision is Calvary seen the Lamb as it had been slain. The wonderful plan of redemption the Judge became our attorney.

Re: Question For My Oneness Friends...
 

He was seeing the past, present and the future REV 1:19

Re: Question For My Oneness Friends...
 

The lion represents Deity and the lamb represents humanity

Verses 11-14 shows you that the one that is sitting on the throne
is jesus

Re: Question For My Oneness Friends...
 

It's all figurative language.

1)God doesn't have a right hand. Right hand is a anthropomorphism that represents a place of power and authority.
2)God doesn't have a literal throne that He can sit on because He is a Spirit and heaven is His throne and the earth is His footstool. The heaven of heavens cannot contain Him. The throne in heaven was specifically made for Jesus Christ to sit upon.
3) John is literally seeing a vision of a Lamb before a throne in heaven. Yes, the Lamb represents Jesus but the entire scene is figurative or symbollic.


AG, How many divine persons will you see in heaven?

Re: Question For My Oneness Friends...
 

First of all you have to realize this is all a vision. It's very symbolic.

For example, while you recognize the lamb is Jesus...John saw a lamb...baaa baaa. John saw a lamb as it had been slain. He did not see Jesus.

The fact that he uses lamb as a reference points to the human savior who died on the cross. While in identity one might argue "God died", in Divine essence and nature God did NOT die. The lamb represents His human Being.

This was not meant to teach a lesson on the Godhead. However it does illustrate the distinctions.

Re: Question For My Oneness Friends...
 

FogHorn!

Re: Question For My Oneness Friends...
 

Where is Daniel?

Re: Question For My Oneness Friends...
 

Remember, revelation is symbolic. It is a vision. The Lamb represents the sacrificial death that Christ suffered at Calvary. John said he saw the Lamb standing between the throne and the four living creatures, representing intercession. Since His blood had been shed at Calvary, He alone was worthy to open the scrolls. This was a vision of the symbolism of Christ's sacrifice being accepted before God for our sins, and the mysteries of the end being revealed.

It does not prove a trinity of gods, a trinity of persons making up God. How could this be? Jesus said in John 4:24 that God is a Spirit (Spiritual Being). A Spirit is just that, a spirit. He is not divided, but is one spirit, omnipresent.

One God.

Re: Question For My Oneness Friends...
 

It's real simple Brother, Jesus has a body now just as he had on Earth, when He took "the finger of God (which is the Holy Ghost) and used it to cast out devils. The source of Jesus' deity is God the Father, (who is a Spirit who made himself a man). Remember what Abraham said to Issac? "My son, God will provide himself, a lamb....". God did exactly that He made himself (into) a man, but He did not cease to be a Spirit.

Re: Question For My Oneness Friends...
 

Well, well, and all you trinity sympathizers here wonder how people like Rico and I believed in a tri-unity before. The original post here should open the eyes of a lot of you people here.

Trinity and oneness are not the same like you would like to trick some into believing. While all their creeds may sound angelic they are doctrines of the devil.

Re: Question For My Oneness Friends...
 

The original post seems sincere enough to me. I thought it was an honest question.

Re: Question For My Oneness Friends...
 

I'm really not sure whether is, or it isn't.
I wondered if it might have been a bit of a "bait" question, thrown into the shark tank, so to speak.

---
But to the original poster I ask... what is YOUR understanding of that passage?

Re: Question For My Oneness Friends...
 

TR

I know AG has mentioned that he was a member of Marvin Treece's church for years. However, I also saw him write that he now considers himself a trinitarian.

Re: Question For My Oneness Friends...
 

How? I mean, when I came out of the trinitarian church, I could clearly see the Oneness of God. Now, I am not about to condemn someone who does not see it as clearly as I do, but when one completely reverts back to trinity doctrine, and is willing to cast Oneness aside, I draw the line there.

Re: Question For My Oneness Friends...
 

http://bible.cc/luke/8-18.htm

When we do not value that which we have heard and received, or even as
children that which we have been priviledge to have been taught, there are
alternatives.

As a child I did not always understand everything I was taught or heard from
the hearing of the Word. As I grew I trusted in the ones who taught me and
endeavored to followed them as they followed Christ. By no means was I
perfect, but did have a respectful fear and reverence for my parents. I knew
they served God and endeavored to obey His Word and I feared not to obey
them. It was not an unhealthy fear.

Those was my parents, my grandmother, her sister and other godly people who
I had confidence in because I saw their lives. I felt their love and concern for
me.

As I grew older, I still did not understand all I heard, but I was learning that if
I would just wait, I would later began as I was maturing, to better understand.
Instead of turning and going away from those teaching, I began to read God's
Word for myself and ask the Lord to open my understanding that I might under-
stand the Word.

It seems that many, when they go away too young, or marry and go away before
they are fully mature, turn. and start following others influence. which are many
times totally contrary to what they have learned from those who birthed them and
loved them.

How many would like to raise your children only to have them marry into a family
that does not share your faith and have your children turned away from all you
have taught them from a child. If you turned, they will probably turn further away
than you did.

This is not to offend, but I can see how these things happen. Someone raised in
the Oneness faith and goes away from it, I think the Luke 8:18 may apply.

My late grandmother who was a tremendous influence would say, "If we don't love
and walk in the truth that we have, we will lose even that we SEEM to have".

My late father, also probably the most influential person in my life, would say,
"There are alternatives to serving God in spirit and in truth". And we saw sad
stories through the years.

Children would come to our Sunday School and children's church and when they
would began to feel their need of God and want to be baptized in Jesus Name,
their parents would rise up and forbid them to come back. Some instances, the
teenagers reported their parents suddenly said they could go to any church but
that church. Later some parents would want my father to talk to their son on his
way to prison. Or talk to their daughter who........! The stories were so sad.

That man or woman your child is dating or marrying may not have a background
of truth. They could influence your child away from God. Who will influence your
grandchildren or future grandchildren. There comes a time YOUR influence will have
either taken or not taken.

May our Great Lord God give us wisdom and help us and help us teach our children
to "Remember NOW thy Creator in the days of thy youth, while the evil days come
not, nor the years draw nigh, when thou shalt say, I have no pleasure in them".
Eccles. 12:1

Falla39

Re: Question For My Oneness Friends...
 

It is a valid question for anyone to ask. We must be able to answer the difficult questions sincere people have.

Re: Question For My Oneness Friends...
 

These are many of the answers that I expected to receive. I'm not here to argue. I just wanted to see what you'd say. I was raised in oneness all my life and preached it for a number of years. It still amazes me though when I look back and realize that I used to be one. It also amazes me how the scriptures are manipulated to justify your doctrine.

Thanks for all of your input. It will be helpful in what I'm doing.

Re: Question For My Oneness Friends...
 

Scriptures manipulated?! OK, I have to go to the grocery store in a bit, but when I get back, I will gladly show the error of your reasoning in this, from the standpoint of a former trinitarian preacher.

Good grief folks! This one is gonna get busy real fast.

Re: Question For My Oneness Friends...
 

1 John 2:19
(19) They went out from us, but they were not of us: for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.

I am willing to discuss this verse and will in a future post (I have to go to an appointment now), BUT it is absurd to try and prove the existence of a Trinity upon ONE passage of scripture. The immensity of the scriptures PLAINLY declare that God is NOT three persons.

TRW

Re: Question For My Oneness Friends...
 

Revalations also talks about the 7 spirits of God. it also talks about little men with wings and stingers and wild beasts with mulitple animal bodies and horns and harlots and all kind of things that are sympolic and not meant to be taken as a literal physical embodiment of reality.

Re: Question For My Oneness Friends...
 

**groan!!**

It's sad that this guy actually thinks he's now "englightened" now that he has given himself over to the Trinity doctrine.

If he thinks this Revelation 5 passage is supposed to be an indicator of God the Son and God the Father, he is making the same error so many Trinitarians do. This passage is no more an indicator of 3 divine persons than is than is the passage that describes the baptism of Jesus (Father spoke/ Spirit came down as a dove) . I would spend the time to explain his error to him, but I dont think it would do much good. I'll let someone else do so if they want to take the time.

I really feel sad for the man, though. When a man walks away from truth and thinks he has some kind of "revelation" from the Lord, that is an unfortunate state of affairs.

Re: Question For My Oneness Friends...
 

I am a very conscientious person, sometimes to my own detriment. However, I stand strong in the knowledge that God is one. My trinity friends and brethren (yes, I do consider trinity believers my brethren), when I ask them about their beliefs, 99% will mirror almost exactly a Oneness position. I ask them sincerely if it would matter if they substituted manifestations for persons in the description of God and most say that they accept it.

I am Oneness to the core. I forever will be such. This truth is very precious to me. However, I will not condemn someone who has sincere faith in Christ but does not have a correct understanding of who Jesus is in totality. This nonsense between Oneness and Trinity really needs to stop. If we would lay aside our predetermined mindsets about one another, and come out and describe our beliefs in openness, we would see such minute differences that it would not be funny.

And, the following might cause me grief on the board but so be it. I would minister the Gospel in a trinity church the same as I would in a Oneness church. The response would be the same, in souls repenting and being converted. Most churches I know would allow Jesus name baptism because it is written in the Bible. Yes, these are my brethren, and I claim them as such.

So, AG, if you come on here to engage in a dialog concerning oneness vs. trinity, then might I advise you to serious think about how much you might lose in so doing?

As I said in the previous post, I am a former trinity preacher, and that means I used to be a minister in a trinity church. They had the Holy Ghost, just like us, spoke in tongues, just like us, and got saved just like us. The difference comes in when we minor on the majors, and major on the minors.

OK, you may fire when ready!

Re: Question For My Oneness Friends...
 

Oh!!!! Oh!!!! I know this one!!!! Can I answer it? Please Please????!!!!!

Re: Question For My Oneness Friends...
 

I hereby recommend that you NOT be on the AFF welcoming committee! :cool:

Re: Question For My Oneness Friends...
 

This is a piece of cake! in this vision we have what appear to be three different individuals referred to. 1.) The One on the throne, 2.) The Lion of the tribe of Judah and 3.) The Lamb that was slain.

What amazes me is that trinitarians usually have no trouble grasping that the Lion of the tribe of Judah is Jesus Christ and that the Lamb that was slain was ALSO Jesus Christ but it all seems to fall apart for them when they come to the ONE on the throne, which of course in Revelation chapter four we see is ALSO Jesus Christ! The key to understanding this vision is to realize it is not a vision concerning the Godhead, but rather the process that was undertaken in the incarnation where by the One who was on the throne in his deity also was the King of Israel as Lion of the tribe of Judah and also the lamb for sinners slain at calvary. This whole vision is about how that NO MAN was able to to open the seals except the MAN CHRIST JESUS the LAMB of God. So here we see Jesus as LION OF JUDAH the KING of Israel AND as the Lamb slain for sin the Redeemer of Israel AND as the One on the throne the God of Israel! The way this was portrayed in the vision so we might understand it refers to the interaction of Humanity (The Lamb) with Deity (The One on the throne ) in the sacrifice neccesary to open the seals. In other words a the reality of Pauls statement "To WIT (Understand) That God (The deity on the throne) was IN Christ (The Lamb of God) reconciling the world to himself. The vision is actually a typological reference to Calvary where the King of Israel (Jesus of Nazareth kING OF THE jEWS, LION OF THE TRIBE OF jUDAH) enters his ministry as the LAMB of God who was slain for the sins of man, who ALSO happens to be GOD manifest in the flesh, THE HOLY ONE Of Israel. Not three persons manifest here in the vision but rather the three roles that refer to Jesus Christ as the Lord God of Israel as the King of Israel son of David and as the Sacrifical Lamb of Israel as the song says Its ALL in him! Hope that helps...

Re: Question For My Oneness Friends...
 

oh boy. I thought for sure someone would mention this instead of giving the age-old canned Apostolic responses...and including the good old insults...

If you consider that the abstract is eternal and that eternity is abstract, you also have to consider that there is no beginning nor is there an end to that place where the Lord sits. The spectrum of time has ceased to exist. We as fallible human beings have only the context of time with which to relate our experience. Compound that with our Greek linear logic and you have a lethal combination.

This is why we are mistaken when we slap out a timeline in terms of thinking about Jesus being which IS, which WAS and which IS to come...the Almighty.

I say that folks are sadly mistaken when they can take the abstract, the immensity of heaven, and the manifistation of Almighty God and put it into the form fitting box of limited understand in the flesh.

Quick, someone describe why the quadratic equasion works...can't do it? Oh well.

Re: Question For My Oneness Friends...
 

This was funny! :toofunny

Re: Question For My Oneness Friends...
 

Come on Carpenter

YOU gotta love all the egos that come out when you start talking about the Godhead. I don't really like to debate. I was raised trinitarian and the Spirit of the Lord gave me understand of The I AM. Since it was given to me by the Spirit -- I cannot personally attack people who don't see it. I just pray for em. :bliss

Re: Question For My Oneness Friends...
 

This reminds me of a prisoner at one of the jails I used to minister in. I hadn't done any teaching on the Godhead or anything yet, and he asked me what God could mean by something He had said to him. He said he had been praying and telling God he wanted to know Him better and God told him, "I am one."

Re: Question For My Oneness Friends...
 

I think you are trying to stack the deck, and then answer your own questions. That's about as sharp as a bowling ball.

Is this a literal depiction of heavenly events?

Re: Question For My Oneness Friends...
 

I'd say it it primarily symbolic, since
1... it's a vision, and
2... Jesus is shown as being a lamb with seven eyes, etc.
Yet a) Jesus has never literally had seven eyes, and b) Jesus is obviously not an actual lamb...the lamb John saw simply symbolized His role as the Lamb of God.

The entire vision is rich with symbolism, so it would be inconsistent or even intellectually/theologically dishonest for someone to claim that the Rev. 5 passage is somehow supposed to depict a separation of persons in the Godhead. Hardly. The passage is essentially depicting Jesus, in His relation to the Father, receiving the scrolls from His Father, and receiving the authority to open them and to preside over the sequence of divinely-directed endtime events that follow each scroll's opening. The passage is meant to show the power and authority invested in Jesus by His Father; it is not a "Godhead scripture" by any means, although so many Trinitarians try to make it one.

Re: Question For My Oneness Friends...
 

Nicely stated, TRFrance. :)

Re: Question For My Oneness Friends...
 

Weird. My husband says almost exactly the same thing about being raised as a trinitarian preacher's kid. :coffee2