secret rapture
 

Do you believe in a secret rapture? (NO, I do not)

Re: secret rapture
 

No, Sis Alvear, I have never seen Bible evidence of a "secret rapture". What I have read points to the fact that God doesn't have to "steal way" His bride. He purchased his church and there is no reason for Him to have to sneak away what is rightfully His.

Re: secret rapture
 

I don't Sister Alvear, I think we will all hear the trumpet.

Re: secret rapture
 

I see so many of those little rapture pictures just wondered if I am alone in not believing in a secret rapture...

Re: secret rapture
 

No

Re: secret rapture
 

If all those people suddenly disappear surely some of them will be missed and their leaving/disappearance would not be a secret.

Re: secret rapture
 

No, I never have.

Re: secret rapture
 

I used to as a young believer. Further examination revealed a GLORIOUS VISIBLE COMING.

7: And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
8: In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
9: Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;
10: When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day. 2 Thess. 1:7-10

Re: secret rapture
 

I like your words, "glorious visible coming" to me it seems that the rapture is like a climatic event of all the Bible. It is hard for me to conceive that the grand finale of the power of God is going to be hid.

Re: secret rapture
 

every eye shall behold Him...

Re: secret rapture
 

The standard dispensational teaching is that Jesus will rapture His bride before the tribulation and then return with His bride to rule on the earth after the tribulation. This is from a recent Bible Study:

Program of His Coming
Rapture Revelation
In air to earth
for the church with the church
before the tribulation after the tribulation
rewards in heaven ruling on earth
1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 Revelation 19:11-19
Revelation chapter 4

The UPC has published a position paper which states:
"...We reject preterist notions that the prophecies of Revelation 4-19 were fulfilled in AD 70...As Oneness Pentecostals we believe that Revelation 4-19 refers to events that are yet future ..."

Re: secret rapture
 

Sam,

I agree with the above statement, but doesn't most UPC churches hold to the post trib teaching?

Re: secret rapture
 

In the UPC different views of when the rapture will occur are allowed.
Some are pre-tribulation like Bro. S.G. Norris and the Apostolic Bible Institute in St. Paul, MN and like the school in Stockton, CA.
Some are mid-tribulation like the old Oneness Pentecostal Correspondence Course.
Some are post-tribulation like Bro. Irvin Baxter.

The stand that the UPC took in that position paper from 2005 was against preterism. In the wording it was stated that Revelation chapters 4-19 are still future but that is not firmly believed among its members or ministers. Bro. Baxter teaches (as far as I understand) that we are some where in the tribulation period right now. I hope I am not misrepresenting what he teaches.

Personally, I believe in a pre-tribulation rapture but I realize that among our brothers and sisters there are differences of opinion on this.

Re: secret rapture
 

Matthew 24:42 Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come. 24:43 But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up. 24:44 Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.
1 Corinthians 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 15:53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. 15:54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
Both of these passages support a secret rapture as the first one refers as to the rapture being like a thief in the night and the second says it takes place in the so fast that in the time it takes to blink your eye it will have taken place.

Re: secret rapture
 

It is interesting to note the
liberal mis-interpretation that
leads to a physical rapture doctrine in the OT, at
"fly, like a bird" or whatever...the relevant Scripture
isn't coming to me at the moment; there at the end, one of the
prophets...

Re: secret rapture
 

Let us be more specific.

"Secret Rapture" generally means you believe the Church is taken away and will not go though the great tribulation.

There will be a rapture. It will come AFTER the great tribulation.

It is assumed that if one says they do not believe in a secret rapture they believe the rapture comes AFTER the tribulation.

Carry on.

Re: secret rapture
 

Ezekiel 13:20
King James Bible (Cambridge Ed.)
Wherefore thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I am against your pillows, wherewith ye there hunt the souls to make them fly, and I will tear them from your arms, and will let the souls go, even the souls that ye hunt to make them fly.

American Standard Version
Wherefore thus saith the Lord Jehovah: Behold, I am against your pillows, wherewith ye there hunt the souls to make them fly, and I will tear them from your arms; and I will let the souls go, even the souls that ye hunt to make them fly.

Darby Bible Translation
Wherefore thus saith the Lord Jehovah: Behold, I am against your pillows, that the souls which ye catch by their means may fly away; and I will tear them from your arms, and will let the souls go, the souls that ye catch, that they may fly away.

English Revised Version
Wherefore thus saith the Lord GOD: Behold, I am against your pillows, wherewith ye there hunt the souls to make them fly, and I will tear them from your arms; and I will let the souls go, even the souls that ye hunt to make them fly.

Webster's Bible Translation
Wherefore thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I am against your pillows, with which ye there hunt the souls to make them fly, and I will tear them from your arms, and will let the souls go, even the souls that ye hunt to make them fly.

This actually starts at verse...18 or so.
Note the "pillows." I would not say that this denies that
something happens there in 2 Thess, but that if a
"pillow" has been provided for you...
seek, and you will find.

Re: secret rapture
 

No I do not believe in a rapture. Period. I do not believe in a comming great tribulation. I do not believe in a litural 1000 year reing on earth.

I beleive the kingdom of God on earth was established in full force in 70ad when God through (using) Rome destoyed his enemies the Jewish relgious leaders, and destroyed the Temple.

The idea that God would spend 4000 +- years dealing with mankind up to the cross, then only deal with mankind for 2000 years after the cross? I don't think so. God is eternal, come on, what is God going to do for the rest of eternity go do it all over again on another universe.

Those of you that think Christ is going to sit on an earthly throne in Jerusalem, seem to forget God already sat on an earthly throne for almost 2000 years before the cross. And we know how that worked out. Most of the time the Jews disobeyed against God and God allowed their enemies to subdue them until they repented.

Re: secret rapture
 

Is there resurrection of all the dead before He returns....so that every eye will behold Him?

Re: secret rapture
 

The absolute best post on the thread!

Re: secret rapture
 

I belive Jesus is coming ONCE for his church and every eye will see him. NO SECRET RAPTURE! Love bro David Adams book on this! He's helped me a lot to understand events.

Re: secret rapture
 

I ask again, will everyone be resurrected from the dead before He returns so they can behold Him coming? If not, how can every eye behold Him coming, including those who pierced Him?

Re: secret rapture
 

Preterist Alert

Re: secret rapture
 

When he arrives and the trumpet sounds all will see him and all will see his children rise to meet him, whether living or dead. It is the Holy Ghost that quickens us to rise.

Re: secret rapture
 

There is no secret rapture.

.

What happens in a “twinkling of an eye?” We will be changed.

It does not say, that Jesus comes in a twinkling of an eye, or that we will be ‘caught up” in a twinkling, but we will be changed in a twinkling of an eye.

This happens at the 7th Trump, which is the Last Trump. And every eye shall see Him. This is the First Resurrection. And just before God pours out His Wrath.

Guess I am Post-Trib and Pre-Wrath.

We are headed straight into Tribulation. And it will start with the One World Religion.

Re: secret rapture
 

Re: secret rapture
 

strange I just had a dream that we were very close to the tribulation and opened the forum and this was on the first page...

Re: secret rapture
 

Those, that are filled with the Holy Ghost, (if dead) won’t be the only ones to be resurrected.

How will those that pierced Him, see Him?

.

Many of Israel will be resurrected, and join the Remnant of Rev 12 (the Woman) and flee to the Wilderness for 3.5 yrs.

At the same time as the First Resurrection,...when “the ManChild” is “caught up”

This will be the time of the ‘war in heaven’
The Remnant will be in the Wilderness for ----3.5 yrs. Satan will try to destroy her, after he sees that he has been cast down. That means he is cast to the earth for---- 3.5 yrs.
The Beast continues for--- 3.5 yrs.
Jerusalem is trodden down—for----3.5 yrs.

Re: secret rapture
 

Something to consider concerning the secret rapture that is being discussed here. I think the below scriptures deal only with the rapture of the church, and not with the second advent.

Notice in the 17th verse. We are caught away in the clouds and meet the Lord in the clouds. Our Lord doesn’t return to the earth, just calls his church out.

Will it be secret? Verse 16 declares that there will be a shout and trump of will sound. A case could be made that only the Christians will hear the sounds..

1Th 4:13
¶ But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them
which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no
hope.

1Th 4:14
For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also
which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

1Th 4:15
For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are
alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them
which are asleep.

1Th 4:16
For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the
voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in
Christ shall rise first:

1Th 4:17
Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with
them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be
with the Lord.

1Th 4:18
Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

Bro. Michael used these scriptures in one of his post and I think they are referring to the second advent. Couple these scriptues with Rev 19: 11-16 and I think they are covering the same event.

2Th 1:7
And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall
be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,

2Th 1:8
In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that
obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:

Re 20:6
Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the
second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

2Th 1:9
Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the
presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

2Th 1:10
When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired
in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was
believed) in that day.

These scriptures in Rev 20th chapter tells of the two resurrections. The first resurrection is for those whohave part in the thousand year reign.

The rest are raise after the thousand years are over.

Re 20:4
And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image,
neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

Re 20:5
But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

Re 20:6
Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the
second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

I do not claim to be an authority on the bible, this is what I have come to believe after years of studyand I enter it here for your consideration.

Re: secret rapture
 

Not one verse indicates the world misses any of those things, however. Not one verse indicates anything much happens AFTER the saints are resurrected (ie no continuing history on earth, unless you count the millenium).

The fACT is the 'pre tribulation rapture' was cooked up in the 1800s and sold via Scofield, who was a scoundrel and who was funded by certain interests (still at work today, BTW) pushing a certain poilitical/social agenda.

Re: secret rapture
 

Sam,
How recent is this Bible Study?

Re: secret rapture
 

I'm not disagreeing with you; just curious as to the political/social agendas you believed were pushed.