Be Ye Perfect
 

In another thread Man Of Word said:

The Head of the church does NOT require His people to be perfect. They are to be perfected. They will NEVER be perfect down here. We are all in the process of being perfected and will NEVER reach the place that our flaws are gone until we are freed from these bodies.

Are you stating that you believe in the doctrine of sinless perfection?

Me:

Yet right here Yeshua gives the plain statement:

Be ye perfect EVEN AS your Father which is in Heaven is perfect. Matt. 5:48

Notice the two words EVEN AS in this scripture? That means in the same way the Father is perfect we are to be perfect. Is it true Yeshua meant we are to be in the process of being perfected? If that be true it means that the Father is in the process of being perfected!

While it is true that we are to grow in grace and knowledge of the Lord Jesus Christ that is different than living without sin. Living without sin is very basic to the Christian life.

There are two levels of the truth of perfection.

1. To live without sin.
2. To grow up into HIM in all things.

To live without sin is the easier of the two. Paul said we were DEAD TO SIN from the time we were baptized into the name of Jesus.

What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?
2: God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?
3: Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? Rom. 6:1-3

To those who think the Christian must continue in sin Paul asks "how shall we that are dead to sin live any longer therein?"

It is a tremendous mistake for Christians to think sin is normal to them.

First things first. I am not teaching that man in his own strength can live without sin. Matter of fact in 33 years of my walk I have never heard a Christian teacher say such a thing.

What I do believe and teach is that a Christian is a new creation in Christ. Living in a human body is no excuse for the spirit filled believer to continue sinning.

The proof:

10: And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.
11: But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.
12: Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh. Rom. 8:10-12

The mighty Holy Ghost quickens the mortal body to do the will of God. Therefore we are NOT DEBTORS TO THE FLESH.

Here Paul tells us in no uncertain terms the body must be holy.

1: I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service. Rom. 12:1

So you see friends God is not encouraging anyone to wait for a NEW BODY before he can be freed from sin. Rather he tells us that he expects us to offer the BODIES WE NOW HAVE to him holy, and acceptable to him. He calls this our REASONABLE SERVICE.

Not something unusual. Not something unattainable. Just our reasonable service.

It is true that a Christian could sin and then be forgiven of course. But men have set the true standard of Christ so low people are saying they CANNOT cease from sin. Jesus said be perfect as the Father is perfect.

Mike ... if you think that somehow we can be perfected, or process of santification without His Spirit and by our works of obedience ... I would have to disagree with you ...

As long as we live in this flesh there is a struggle between flesh and spirit ... it is his Spirit in us and grace that allow us to have access to the throne.

If you think we drink some kind of perfect pill ... that instantly makes you perfect you are heading for a brick wall, JMO.

Paul recognized this constant daily struggle

Did Paul acknowledge his sinful nature?

"For we know that the law is spiritual; but I am of the flesh, sold into slavery under sin. I do not understand my own actions. For I do not do what I want, but I do the very thing I hate. Now if I do what I do not want, I agree that the law is good. But in fact it is no longer I that do it, but sin that dwells within me" (Romans 7:14-17, New Revised Standard Version).

Paul well understood his human nature—how deceitful it could be. As a young Jewish boy he had been taught to do what is right. In line with his early training, he was exceptionally sincere. Yet, when Christ opened his mind to see himself as he really was, he recognized he had deceived himself about his own righteousness. He could see he had sinned in many ways, both in action and attitude.

He concluded: "For I know that nothing good dwells within me, that is, within my flesh. I can will what is right, but I cannot do it. For I do not do the good I want, but the evil I do not want is what I do. Now if I do what I do not want, it is no longer I that do it, but sin that dwells within me. So I find it to be a law that when I want to do what is good, evil lies close at hand" (verses 18-21, NRSV).

In Galatians he tells us the key to living an overcoming life:

16So I say, live by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the sinful nature. 17For the sinful nature desires what is contrary to the Spirit, and the Spirit what is contrary to the sinful nature. They are in conflict with each other, so that you do not do what you want. 18But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under law.

19The acts of the sinful nature are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; 20idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions 21and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God.

22But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law. 24Those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the sinful nature with its passions and desires.

Romans 3 reminds us of our imperfections in this human body .... AND THE NEED FOR HIS RIGHTEOUSNESS

5But if our unrighteousness brings out God's righteousness more clearly, what shall we say? That God is unjust in bringing his wrath on us? (I am using a human argument.) 6Certainly not! If that were so, how could God judge the world? 7Someone might argue, "If my falsehood enhances God's truthfulness and so increases his glory, why am I still condemned as a sinner?" 8Why not say—as we are being slanderously reported as saying and as some claim that we say—"Let us do evil that good may result"? Their condemnation is deserved.

9What shall we conclude then? Are we any better[b]? Not at all! We have already made the charge that Jews and Gentiles alike are all under sin. 10As it is written:
"There is no one righteous, not even one;
11there is no one who understands,
no one who seeks God.
12All have turned away,
they have together become worthless;
there is no one who does good,
not even one."[c]
13"Their throats are open graves;
their tongues practice deceit."[d]
"The poison of vipers is on their lips."[e]
14"Their mouths are full of cursing and bitterness."[f]
15"Their feet are swift to shed blood;
16ruin and misery mark their ways,
17and the way of peace they do not know."[g]
18"There is no fear of God before their eyes."[h]

19Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, so that every mouth may be silenced and the whole world held accountable to God. 20Therefore no one will be declared righteous in his sight by observing the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of sin.
Righteousness Through Faith
21But now a righteousness from God, apart from law, has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. 22This righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference, 23for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus. 25God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement,[i] through faith in his blood. He did this to demonstrate his justice, because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished— 26he did it to demonstrate his justice at the present time, so as to be just and the one who justifies those who have faith in Jesus.

John reminds us:

"If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His word is not in us" -- 1 John 1:8-10 NIV

Sanctification is a process ....

2 Corinthians chapter 3

17 Now, ... wherever the Spirit of the Lord is, he gives freedom. 18 ... And as the Spirit of the Lord works within us, we become more and more like him and reflect his glory even more.

So what you are saying here is that you are actually able to live a sinless life?

Man, I bet most people would like your definition of sin!

:slaphappy

Hi Daniel,

You said:

Mike ... if you think that somehow we can be perfected, or process of santification without His Spirit and by our works of obedience ... I would have to disagree with you ...

Me:

Did you not read THIS in my post?

First things first. I am not teaching that man in his own strength can live without sin. Matter of fact in 33 years of my walk I have never heard a Christian teacher say such a thing.

You said:

As long as we live in this flesh there is a struggle between flesh and spirit ... it is his Spirit in us and grace that allow us to have access to the throne.

Me:

Yes but my point is the Christian is to be victorious over the flesh. Remember Paul said:

24: And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts. Gal. 5:24

You said:

Did Paul acknowledge his sinful nature?

"For we know that the law is spiritual; but I am of the flesh, sold into slavery under sin. I do not understand my own actions. For I do not do what I want, but I do the very thing I hate. Now if I do what I do not want, I agree that the law is good. But in fact it is no longer I that do it, but sin that dwells within me" (Romans 7:14-17, New Revised Standard Version).

Paul well understood his human nature—how deceitful it could be. As a young Jewish boy he had been taught to do what is right. In line with his early training, he was exceptionally sincere. Yet, when Christ opened his mind to see himself as he really was, he recognized he had deceived himself about his own righteousness. He could see he had sinned in many ways, both in action and attitude.

He concluded: "For I know that nothing good dwells within me, that is, within my flesh. I can will what is right, but I cannot do it. For I do not do the good I want, but the evil I do not want is what I do. Now if I do what I do not want, it is no longer I that do it, but sin that dwells within me. So I find it to be a law that when I want to do what is good, evil lies close at hand" (verses 18-21, NRSV).


Me:


Romans 7 is Paul re interating his experience when he was IN THE FLESH still under the law without the Holy Spirit.

5: For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death.
6: But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter. Rom. 7:5-6

He then goes on into Rom. 8 where he demonstrates the difference between the life in the flesh he spoke of in chapter 7 and what he is presently experiencing.

8: So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
9: But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
10: And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.
11: But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.
12: Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh.
13: For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live. Rom. 8:8-13

The Spirit of Christ in the mortal body quickens it that it is no longer a debtor to the flesh. If we live after the flesh we will die. If we THROUGH THE SPIRIT put to death the deeds of the body we will live. Its overcome or die.

Also note that to the Thessalonians Paul was able to sat this of himself and his partners.

10: Ye are witnesses, and God also, how holily and justly and unblameably we behaved ourselves among you that believe: 1 Thess. 2:10

Paul said they lived holy and without blame. Thats sinless perfection in a nutshell.

I will deal with 1 John 1:8 in my next post.

Write it in Hebrew
 

That's what he's saying ... no wiggle room at all ..

No room for Sanctification here ... !!!!

...unless of course he doesn't believe anything is actually a sin..

Without a proper understanding of the context of 1 John 1:8 many have rejected the Bible teaching that the Spirit filled Christian can live without sin.

Here is the context.

5: This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all.
6: If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth:
7: But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.
8: If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
9: If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 1 John 1:5-9

If we read verse 8 out of its context it would seem to be saying A Christian is deceiving himself. But if we can see that verse 8 is a reference back to verse 6 another story emerges.

Verse 6.

6: If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth:

John is speaking to those who ALTHOUGH THEY WALK IN DARKNESS claim to be having fellowship with the Lord. Their problem is they claim to know Yeshua but walk in darkness. John says such are liars.

They are going on as if everything is ok though they have sin in their lives.

TO THEM John says:

8: If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
9: If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. Verses 8-9

You see the difference? Now it becomes clear John is addressing those who actually ARE SINNING and yet refusing to acknowledge it! He say TO THEM "if we say we have no sin we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us."

They walk in darkness. The darkness is sin present in their lives that they refuse to admit. John tells them if they confess the sin they will be forgiven.

It is a distortion of Johns meaning to say that he taught that if a Christian IN GENERAL says he has no sin he is a liar.

John himself in many scriptures shows the exact opposite that the Christian should EXPECT to live without sin!

The same Apostle says:

3: And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
4: He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. 1 John 2:3-4

Here John says it is the one who DOES NOT KEEP HIS COMMANDMENTS is the liar with no truth in him!

You see John is not contradicting himself. He consistently presents the truth that we ARE TO OBEY the commands of Yeshua.

And IF one WOULD sin if they confess they can be forgiven but if they refuse to admit they are sinning they are liars and deceivers of their own selves.

This is the sound doctrine that appears all throughout the Bible.

People who have sin in their lives are people who if they leave it there will not be in the Kingdom.

19: Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
20: Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
21: Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God. Gal. 5:19-21

Can we live without sin? I see us exhorted to do so everywhere I look in Gods word. Those with sin in the life must be told what Paul says. Their sin WILL keep them from the kingdom of God.

I agree with your statement.

A perfect two year old is still perfect even if he soils his pants, that happens with two year olds, but if that is happening at the age of 21 then something is wrong..........:winkgrin

If one commits sin at ANY STAGE of his walk he is in danger as long as the sin is not forsaken. Anannias and his wife bear witness of this. They were new converts. They decided to do something wrong.

God used Peter to pronounce judgment upon them and they both fell dead the same day. Why? They commited a sin. Although Gods punishment usually does not come so dramatically nonetheless we have been warned by this and other Biblical stories that it MIGHT.

Forsaking sin is not an option even to the New Christian as Anannias and Saphira testify. We do continue to grow up into him in all things. Like his power. Like his zeal. Like his love. But as far as commiting sin the Christian should be taught they are dead to sin. The Christian should be taught that it is unusual for Christians to commit sin.

When the Christian is told to be PERFECT this is in many cases the meaning:

12: Epaphras, who is one of you, a servant of Christ, saluteth you, always labouring fervently for you in prayers, that ye may stand perfect and complete in all the will of God. Col. 4:12

It means to be perfect as to doing the will of God. This should be taught and understood by all the Churches. If their ministers fail to teach this the people will be unaware of what is required of them. The Lord said his people perish for the lack of knowledge. It is happening before our eyes.

Joel posted:

In the Greek this says we don't practice sin.Meaning we don't do the same sin over and over,but don't mean we will not ever sin.1John 3:9: Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed (word) remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

Me:

Agreed but neither does it rule out that one would never sin again. It is within the spirit filled believer, trained in the word to not commit sin. IF he does he may confess and go on.

God does not change: Hebrews 13:8.

(It is possible to live a sinless life after being remitted: 2 Peter 1:3-11. I'd say the core meaning, and what it is to be perfect will follow through after following the two greatest commandments: Matthew 22:36-40.)

The meaning of the word "perfect" in the New Testament, is full grown; complete and entire lacking nothing.

If you sin or get sick, you are not dead to the flesh. A dead man can't sin and you can't make a dead man sick.

MTD said:

"So you see friends God is not encouraging anyone to wait for a NEW BODY before he can be freed from sin. Rather he tells us that he expects us to offer the BODIES WE NOW HAVE to him holy, and acceptable to him. He calls this our REASONABLE SERVICE.

Not something unusual. Not something unattainable. Just our reasonable service."

TB says:

I like the NIV translation of Romans 12:1 which reads, "...this is your spiritual act of worship". Only that which had been sanctified and made holy could be offered as a "spiritual act of worship" in the OT.

When the Bible speaks of perfection, I believe this refers to the STANDING of the believer in contrast to the STATE of the believer. The standing of the believer is the result of the work of Christ whereby the repentant sinner is established as a member of God's family. Nothing that the believer can do after he is born again will add to his title, to God's favor on his behalf, or to his perfect standing. Faith in Christ alone confers standing in God's sight. Before God the one who is ignorant, and even spiritually immature, if he is a true child of God, has exactly the same standing as the most illustrious saint.

The state of the believer is usually quite different from his standing. His state involves his walk, which is generally much below the perfect standing that God, by His grace, has given him. This lower condition of his state in no way takes away from his perfect standing, but it does make him realize his unworthiness, and urges him to endeavor to raise his state to be more in conformity with his standing. This is the divine order under grace, to give the highest possible standing and then exhort the believer to maintain a state in accordance with it.

The only basis I have for offering myself as "a spiritual act of worship unto God" is the holy standing I have in Christ which is a standing in which I have been perfected forever (Heb.10:14).

The child of God is not under probation to see if he is worthy of an exalted standing, but beginning with the confession of utter unworthiness receives the position wholly as a result of the work of Christ. Positional-wise, he is "perfected forever," (Heb.10:14), but looking within at his state, he must say that he is not yet perfect. This explains the seeming contradiction between Philippians 3:12 and Heb. 10:14.

As an example consider the child of a king. He is a prince, a member of the royal family. He may be as willful and as ignorant as any other child. He may sometimes be very obedient and teachable and affectionate, and then he is happy and approved. At other times he may be unruly, self-willed and disobedient, and then he is unhappy and makes others unhappy as well. It may be that he will have to be chastised. But, he is just as much a child of the king on one day as on another. No matter what his state, he is still a prince in standing. It is to be hoped that he will learn to bring his conduct to every right and proper way that is in keeping with a more "prince-like" state. However, he can never be any more of a prince by his conduct than he already is because he was born into that position.

In the case of every true child of God growth is expected and assured. As a child of God and as a son of God, the state will always be below the standing. Potentially all things are his, but actually, not yet. In the time of glorification for the believer, standing and state will be equal. It is important for us to understand that the standing of the believer is not the reward of the perfect state. Rather, the state of the believer is developed from the perfect standing he has received through Christ.

This is confusing when held up to Gods word. Does the scripture teach that we may yet be found unworthy of Christ?

11: Wherefore also we pray always for you, that our God would count you worthy of this calling, and fulfil all the good pleasure of his goodness, and the work of faith with power:
12: That the name of our Lord Jesus Christ may be glorified in you, and ye in him, according to the grace of our God and the Lord Jesus Christ.
2 Thess. 1:11-12

If we are NEVER counted UNWORTHY by the Lord why did Paul feel it necessary to pray that they would BE COUNTED WORTHY?

Was everyone in this New Testament Church counted worthy by Yeshua?

4: Thou hast a few names even in Sardis which have not defiled their garments; and they shall walk with me in white: for they are worthy.
5: He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels. Rev. 3:4-5

Obviously most of them were not worthy to walk with him in white. Why? Their garments were defiled. Should they have been afraid at this rebuke? If the Lord told you only a few names in your Church were worthy and only overcomers would NOT BE BLOTTED OUT OF HIS BOOK the fear of God would certainly be warranted.

Their standing with Yeshua was getting ready to be changed. Did they repent? We are not given to know. But we are given through them an EXAMPLE that indeed our standing with him can change. Our name can be blotted out of his book if we are not overcomers.

Excellent post, brother. Many people thrive on dissecting a good word for the sake of argument instead of looking a little deeper into the meaning and intent of the post to see its truth.

I think you're missing the very point of Paul's desire here for these believers. "Make worthy" here has the idea of scales and balances. Paul is saying that his desire was that their Christian testimony should be on balance with their calling. None of us are worthy of this high calling, but we should have a desire to be worthy of it. Again it points to our state being brought up to our standing. We are called into the kingdom of God and to an inheritance that we don't deserve. That is positional. We should desire to do good works that are inspired by faith in God and accomplished through His power, is what Paul is saying. Notice that Paul is careful to point out that anything we do that glorifies God will be the result of God's grace at work in our lives.

Of course when we are speaking of the state of man, we have to distinguish between one who is simply not living up to the potential fruitfulness of the Christian life and the calling of God, and someone who is living in a perpetual sinful, and unrepentant state. The Bible is clear concerning the consequence of sin.

Note that I am addressing the state and standing of the believer. If you are living as a sinner, you're obviously not living as a believer and thus you do not have the standing of a believer.

Since sin is not imputed when there is no law (Romans 5:13) and those in the body of Christ are dead to the law, having now, not sin, but righteousness imputed to them (Romans 7:4; 4:5-11; 10:4) ....

What law is breached which would result in a sin which could override the righteousness imputed to a believer in Christ?

If the believer is no longer under the law but under grace..... what sin is imputed to him?

In anticipation of the normal response, "do we have a license to sin and do whatever we want without consequence?"

Paul answers:

What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid. (Romans 6:15) For, brethren, ye have been called unto liberty; only use not liberty for an occasion to the flesh, but by love serve one another. (Galatians 5:13) Just because all things are lawful to us does not mean all things are expedient. (1Corinthians 6:12; 10:23)

Just thought I'd drop a couple of lines on the issue, guys. Carry on....

Our sins are not imputed to us when we have them washed away when we repent and are baptized. You build your theory on a wrong premise that throughout the life of a believer Yeshua will not impute sin to him.

If that were true why is the Lord warning the Sardis Christians on this wise?

4: Thou hast a few names even in Sardis which have not defiled their garments; and they shall walk with me in white: for they are worthy.
5: He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels. Rev. 3:4-5

Would Yeshua threaten these believers with blotting them out of the book of life if they had NOT SINNED? Obviously he is charging them with sin.

Their garments were defiled=sin in their lives=name blotted out of book.

The law they are sinning against is the law of Christ.

Only those who are obedient to his commands (law) will be worthy to enter the gates of Heaven.

14: Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

All this talk about our standing with Yeshua not changing because of sin is easily exposed by the teaching of Christ and the Apostles.

And they uniformly present us with the true standard which is living as an overcomer as to obedience.

God's Methods to Raise the State of the Believer

It may be said that all the work of God on behalf of the believer, after he has been born again and been given his perfect standing, is for the purpose of bringing the believer's state into perfect conformity to the standing that God has given him. To do this, God deals with His children through five methods:

1. God applies the Word to the walk and conscience of His child (John 17:17; Ephesians 5:26; 1Peter 2:2)

2. God applies chastisement when the child does not respond to the Word (Hebrews 12:6-11; 1Cor. 11:32)

3. God uses the gifts of the Holy Spirit which, when properly exercised, minister to the needs of the believer (Ephesians 4:11-13)

4. God allows the difficulties and trials of life as a blessing that brings us into a shared glory of Jesus Christ (1Peter 4:12-13)

5. God holds before each child of His the purifying anticipation of final transformation (1John 3:2-3)

These methods are for the purpose of helping the believer to grow in grace, not into grace. To improve his state, not to establish his standing.

There are those who understand that God not only loves us enough to save us and give us a position as sons of God, but has also provided everything we need to live as overcomers.

"Grace and peace be multiplied unto you through the knowledge of God, and of Jesus our Lord, According as His divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue: Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust."(2Pet.2:2-4)

Then there are those who believe they must save themselves and become quite offended if someone would suggest otherwise. There is no rest for someone who is focused on gaining a standing with God, because it is impossible for us to gain a righteous standing apart from that which is received only through faith in Jesus Christ.

"Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe:.." (Rom.3:22)

Yes and I am one of them!

I do not focus on GAINING a standing with Christ. But I am concerned with MAINTAINING IT. The teachings of men are that if you continue in sin and do not live an overcoming life your STANDING does not change with Yeshua.

This has typically been known as "once saved always saved".

No response yet to the words Yeshua spoke to the believers in Sardis. Did he tell them their STANDING with him would not change even tho they had defiled their garments?

4: Thou hast a few names even in Sardis which have not defiled their garments; and they shall walk with me in white: for they are worthy.
5: He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels. Rev. 3:4-5

Notice that Yeshua reserves the right to CHANGE OUR STANDING with him. Those who dont overcome are threatened with being blotted out of the book of life.

This principle is found in many ways in scripture. Here is one more.

2: Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit. John 15:2

IN ME means IN CHRIST. If one is IN HIM and does not bear fruit he TAKES THEM AWAY. He subtracts their name from the book of life.

This means he is letting us know there are consequences for those who are unfruitful tho they are presently IN HIM.

Thats why I am offended by the teaching that our STANDING with Yeshua is not affected by our conduct. It makes people trust in a lie and many have no doubt perished in sin because of such teaching.

Notice that even while He was addressing the Church of Sardis their names were still in the Lamb's Book of Life. Even though they had defiled their garments, He had not up to that point blotted out their name. The very purpose of this message to the Church of Sardis was an appeal for them who had defiled their garments to 1) "Wake up!", 2) "To Remember what you have received and heard" 3) "Obey and repent". And finally, "Hear what the Spirit says".

This is consistent with Scripture elsewhere. Their standing with God had not been altered at the time this message was delivered. Why? Because "The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance." (2Pet. 3:9)

God is reluctant to act against any one of us. He is longsuffering. For this reason Jesus set forth a truth in Matthew 25 that we need to understand. He will do the separating as the Judge of our deeds on earth and He alone will separate the sheep from the goats. Yet, this separation doesn't happen until THAT day. Then verse 46 says, "And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal."

I believe the Bible supports the position that a son of God's standing with the Father does not change while he is still living. However, if a person dies guilty of any of the sins that the Bible clearly states disqualifies one from inheriting the Kingdom of God, his death will separate him from God and he simply will not rise with those who have died in the Lord. Later he will be judged along with the devil and his angels at the White Throne Judgment and cast into hell.

Hello Michael.

I really don’t think that the context of Matthew 5:48 is either physical healing or sinless perfection. For by reading the context on from verse 43 which talks about our enemies and our not retaliating against their evil acts and conduct towards us (verse 44), I’d see the context for this passage as that of our own conduct towards our enemies being prefect just as God’s conduct to them is also perfect, for he blesses both the good and the wicked equally with regard to the physical blessings and disasters of this world (verse 45) irespective of this conduct. There is therefore nothing about sinless perfection in the immediate context to Matthew 5:48 and so introducing it at verse 48 would seem to me to be somewhat forced upon the text itself in the light of the preceding context! Perfection is spoken of only in the light of our own loving conduct in the face of our enemies wicked actions towards us.

That physical perfection isn’t the context for this passage is obvious to me from passages such as Romans 8:23 where even in a post-resurrection context we still await the redemption of our physical bodies! This means that whilst our souls are saved at the moment of repentance i.e. of true saving faith. Nonetheless, our physical bodies aren’t yet redeemed, but will be so after either Christ’s return or possibly after the 1,000 year millennial reign (if you’re a firm futurist). This is an excellent argument against the modern healing movement as it explains why people; even mature and godly Christians still get sick today: It’s because their bodies haven’t as yet been redeemed. For if our bodies had been also healed together with our souls at the moment of our conversion then we would not be able to ever die, or get sick, but would live forever in perfect and flawless bodies. The consequence of this is that Christian under torture would not be freed from such severe pain by death, but could be tortured endlessly, for being saved in both soul and body the Christian would consequently not be able to die and so could be tortured continuously. This is probably why God has in his mercy not as yet healed our physical bodies and why as Christians we suffer frequent illnesses, get sick and die.

Hi Iron Bladder,

You are not reading the ENTIRE CONTEXT. Certainly part of the commandments of Yeshua IS to turn the other cheek, bless enemies ect. That is a part of his teachings. If you start at the BEGINNING of the context you see that indeed he is giving them instructions and commands.

16: Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven.
17: Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfill.
18: For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
19: Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
20: For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.

Then after giving his commands in Chapter 5 he continues on in Chapters 6-7 giving more! He sums it all up by saying this:

21: Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. Matt. 7:21

So if one fails to live consistently in the Fathers will he should not expect to enter the Kingdom. So throngs of believers are lied to and promised Heaven by their teachers whether they do Gods will or they dont.

Jesus spoke of going all the way with righteousness and not only partway as the Publicans did. That is the reason we read of the publicans doing no more than saluting brethren alone before we read of being perfect. be complete.

But all these things Christ admonishes us to do can only be done through the Spirit's empowerment and not our fleshly efforts. :)

I agree totally. Ephesians follows this pattern. We read of Christ's seating above all power and names in chapter 1, and then read of our position with Him, seated in heavenly places in chapter 2. Chapter 4 then tells us to live worthy of this vocation. IOW, behave like it now, and let it work its way into our lifestyle and walk. AND IT IS POSSIBLE! :)

Eph 4:1 KJV I therefore, the prisoner of the Lord, beseech you that ye walk worthy of the vocation wherewith ye are called,

Once we get this into our spirits, we will expect to rise above sinfulness in behaviour, for we know we are dead to it and seated above it, in Christ. But we must be made aware of this position before we can enjoy the experience.

I liken it to the Red Sea crossing which gives us position with Christ. The Jordan crossing stands as crossing over into BEHAVIOUR.

Baptismal sin remission is a whole other topic which I'll only briefly address. I understand that NT baptisms were baptisms of "repentance for the remission of sins" (Mark 1:4; Luke 3:3). Sin remission came at repentance. Baptism was the outward expression of "repentance for the remission of sins." Sin remission was received the moment the repentant heart turned to Christ in faith. (Baptism was the external token of this conversion, much like a wedding ring is the external token of marriage.) Acts 2:38 could then be understood as teaching that one was to repent and let his baptism (of repentance for the remission of sins - Lk3:3; Mk1:4) be in the name of Jesus Christ to declare that the repentant heart had trusted in Jesus Christ for deliverance from sin.

My premise is that we are perpetually justified in Christ, while your premise is that we must be repetitively re-justified. My premise bases justification on Christ's righteousness perpetually imputed, while your premise bases justification on your own ability to continually live above sin well enough that you constantly remain "right" in God's eyes. If you goof, you need to "get right with God." Once "right again" you can be re-declared as having reestablished right standing before God, i.e., re-justified.

My premise recognizes we are created in Christ unto good works (Ephesians 2:10). We who are first newly created and have right status with God bear the righteous fruit of good works. The imputed righteous condition (our status before God) engenders actual righteous action. The righteous status before God is perpetuated by a constant imputation of Christ's righteousness to us by faith alone in Christ alone. Your premise, on the other hand, demands your good works to perpetuate the right status. The status of being right before God and remaining a new creature results from your ability to continue in good works. Your right status depends on your ability to mimic the righteousness of Christ rather than on the righteousness of Christ itself. Rather than being created in Christ unto good/righteous works, like the Scripture says, your premise demands us to accept that good/righteous works perpetuate the creation and keep us in Christ. I believe your premise is backwards. The foundation of your saved condition shifts from what Christ did for you to what you try to do for him, it shifts from reliance on his perfect righteousness to reliance on your attempt at mimicking his perfection.

Concerning Sardis:

Christ said their reputation was that they were alive while, in reality, they were dead. Their works deceived others into thinking they were alive yet something was wrong in their spirit which caused Christ to label them "dead." The bible speaks of but one sin unto death, and I believe it to be the sin of unbelief. I suggest we recognize that the author of Revelation has already dealt in his previous epistles with the heresy of gnosticism which at its core denied the bodily existence and/or resurrection of Christ and that it is very possible he is addressing some of the same concerns here. It is very possible the faith of some in Sardis is being called into question.

The issue of their confession of faith would also be supported by the later reference in Rev 3:5 of the overcomer having his name confessed before the Father and the angels. Luke 12:8 tells us who Christ will confess before the angels. It is those who have a true confession of Christ (....Whosoever shall confess me before men, him shall the Son of man also confess before the angels of God). Also, their "garments" were said to be defiled. Isaiah 61:10 speaks of garments of salvation and a robe of righteousness. What would defile these garments more than a heretical view of Christ? If righteousness is via faith in Christ and their faith is now questionable then their garments would be considered as defiled.

You mention the blessedness of those who "do his commandments." I would simply point out that 1John 3:23-24 outright mentions what these commandments are:

And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment. And he that keepeth his commandments dwelleth in him, and he in him.......

I am curious as to how you would define the "law of Christ."

What a straw man! No it is not about YOUR OWN ABILITY to live above sin. It is about the death of self and the empowering of the Holy Ghost in a life.

It looks like this:

12: Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.
13: For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.

Your concept falls short of the glory of God. It is HE who is working mightily in a Spirit filled believer. He is a NEW CREATION made so for the PURPOSE of good works. Also notice verse 12 lets us know the Philippian Christians ALWAYS OBEYED not that they sinned every day as many testify to today.

We have here the classic differences of the reformation. The difference between Protestantism and Catholicism. You, of course, are taking the Catholic position.

Is justification a work of God's grace IN CHRIST or a work of God's grace IN MAN. Is it based on the righteous person and works of Christ alone or is it based on the righteous person and works of man as he is empowered by the Spirit? Are we justified on the basis of an imputed righteousness or on the basis of an actual righteousness engendered/enabled by the Spirit of God in man?

If the answer is the latter I have to ask.... just how much personal righteousness is enough to merit justification before God? Do this for me.... go sell all you have and give it to the poor then get back with me. If you cannot, you have failed miserably just like the gentleman in Scripture who could not do the same. He thought he lived up to the requirements of God to the fullest, yet Christ, in his request, pointed out to him he couldn't even keep the spirit of the first commandment let alone the rest. Sell ALL you have and give it to the poor..... then you'll still need to tell us just how much righteousness is actually enough to satisfy the demands of God.

Until you rest in the finished work of Christ.... you have not entered into his rest.

God bless, friend.

This is the challenge among most works oriented Pentecostals. It's very difficult for people who don't have a true revelation of grace, to accept that salvation is a gift of God and must be received by faith apart from works. That one cannot save themselves is even offensive to some people. I guess it's the pride of natural man that demands that one save himself, rather than simply living out a salvation that has been freely given through faith in Jesus Christ.

So mfblume are you saying that our standing with Christ (our salvation) can never change? That is what Adino is saying. Truly Blessed is saying it cannot change as long as we live but can after we die.

Adino,

You have a CONCEPT. The problem is a very large one in that it does not agree in many verses of scripture with statements made by Yeshua and the Apostles.