Apostolic Friends Forum - Hebrew Apostolics ??????????????????

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Hebrew Apostolics ??????????????????

I have a friend I grew up with in the church- haven't seen or
talked to this person in 8 years. They married and moved to
Detriot, MI and we lost contact. This person is here for a family reunion
so we met after church and talked til 4AM.

Anyhow, i was shocked to hear when they told me they are
now a "hebrew Apostolic"! i was like WHAAT. They don't use
the word "Jewish" (for some reason), they observe the hebrew
feast & holidays, adhere to the dietary laws, observe the passover
and the sabbath ( church is on Saturday!) Yet still believe in
Acts 238!!!

Has anyone heard of this??? They claim it is growing rapidly???

what do you think?

Re: Hebrew Apostolics ??????????????????

Is this a doctrine we can agree to disagree on or
a totally false doctrine that they should be warned of?

Re: Hebrew Apostolics ??????????????????

Quote:

Originally Posted by rgcraig (Post 534528)

http://www.haic.org/

check out "It Wasn't Our Choice"

http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f1...threeinone.jpg

I think the first step they should take is to kill the person who is doing their graphics and ad designs, and then hire a professional...

Re: Hebrew Apostolics ??????????????????

Quote:

Originally Posted by dizzyde (Post 534537)

I think the first step they should take is to kill the person who is doing their graphics and ad designs, and then hire a professional...

Lol - for real!

Re: Hebrew Apostolics ??????????????????

I thank G_d I have the truth!
J_s_s you are G_d!

Re: Hebrew Apostolics ??????????????????

m_ck_ry doesn't help anyone :P

Re: Hebrew Apostolics ??????????????????

Nothing wrong with following the Torah in that way. They don't believe it saves them thus them choosing to live that way is fine. I have great resepct for them.

Re: Hebrew Apostolics ??????????????????

we have some on AFF.

and Luke2447, some do think it saves them.

Re: Hebrew Apostolics ??????????????????

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ferd (Post 534572)

we have some on AFF.

and Luke2447, some do think it saves them.

Ferd, the definition of saved in that context is perception. Does not sinning save me directly? No! Will sinning send me to hell? Yes, if you don't believe in OSAS or something. I study and talk to many Messianic Jews of all types and I don't know of any that think works in themselves save them. Now works in the respect in view of the cross... Yes! I would agree as they are not our works but a proper response to God. As Abraham's faith(proper response) was considered a righteouss deed. Without faith(proper response) it is impossible to please God. Thus our response to his message does save us. If you want to consider that a work, I would agree.

Re: Hebrew Apostolics ??????????????????

Quote:

Originally Posted by LUKE2447 (Post 534597)

you can 'splain this how ever you like, but if some dude believes we are going to hell for having church on Sunday instead of saturday or for eating pork, then I will stick with my definition. That isnt "obedience in view of the cross"

that is directly what Paul was talking about when he admonished that he would rather they emasculate themselves.

As I said, there are some that are part of AFF and some of these folks believe keeping the law is required. They make the Grace of God of none effect. God help them all. nobody can live by the letter of the law.

Re: Hebrew Apostolics ??????????????????

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ferd (Post 534627)

so Ferd keeping what law is required?

what about murder, cheating, stealing, fornication, etc... See in this view either all things are lawful or they are not!

Re: Hebrew Apostolics ??????????????????

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ferd (Post 534627)

Some of them also think it's wrong to say Jesus. They want you to say Yeshua, Yehoshua, or some other variation. They can't even agree among themselves which one is correct, but they condemn the rest of us for using Jesus.

Re: Hebrew Apostolics ??????????????????

Quote:

Originally Posted by LUKE2447 (Post 534643)

so Ferd keeping what law is required?

what about murder, cheating, stealing, fornication, etc... See in this view either all things are lawful or they are not!

Luke, we have hashed and reshashed this of late.

You cannot take the OT to determine right and wrong sans NT understanding.

all of those things are foundational to NT principles.

Keeping the Sabbath, eating port, and circumcision fail the the test.

Re: Hebrew Apostolics ??????????????????

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rico (Post 534649)

LOL! but it doesnt stop them from condemning both us and each other !

Re: Hebrew Apostolics ??????????????????

And did you know some of them believe in HOLY MAGIC COVERINGS !!!!

Will post a few fascinating quotes in a moment ...

Re: Hebrew Apostolics ??????????????????

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ferd (Post 534659)

hmmm seems Sabbath is still here and will be in the future as it is that which is to come. Also if you read about the early church they observed both. Eastern orthodox still observe and have since the beginning. Again it is still that which is to come. Paul said not let someone judge you he did not say it was done away.

Circumcision morphed or was realized in Christ. As the pyhsical was a type of the spiritual. so in reality it was not done away with it changed form.

Dietary laws whether a sin unto death or not, still is a law God gave for health. It is is valuable though not a heaven and hell issue. It still should be taught as health principles from the church.

Re: Hebrew Apostolics ??????????????????

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daniel Alicea (Post 534664)

And did you know some of them believe in HOLY MAGIC COVERINGS !!!!

Will post a few fascinating quotes in a moment ...

Dude, I will be interested to read about that but seriously you have a itch that cannot be satisfied!

Re: Hebrew Apostolics ??????????????????

Quote:

Originally Posted by LUKE2447 (Post 534667)

and here we go. I am not going to aruge these with you. I honestly dont care what you believe about these things.

the point is, Marks question is did you know they were out there, I answered with yep and they are here too.

thanks for proving my point.

Re: Hebrew Apostolics ??????????????????

Quote:

Originally Posted by StMark (Post 534527)

Is this a doctrine we can agree to disagree on or
a totally false doctrine that they should be warned of?

If their faith is in Christ and not these doctrines of Judaism then I embrace them as brothers and sisters in Christ. If these things are required for right standing with God, then they are in defiance of the liberty in Christ.

Re: Hebrew Apostolics ??????????????????

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ferd (Post 534683)

Ferd, if I told you I thought following the dietary laws in the Bible as a good guideline for healthy eating is a good idea, would that make me a Hebrew Apostolic?

Re: Hebrew Apostolics ??????????????????

This is from a messianic group that believe in HOLY MAGIC HEADCOVERINGS.

I believe those that teach this false doctrine are similar in many ways to the Judaizers of the 1st century.

http://www.nccg.org/340Art-HeadCovering.html

Quote:

"BECAUSE OF THE ANGELS"
The second major reason for the headcovering, "because of the angels," is very closely related to the first, Yahweh's order of authority. The two reasons are tied together in 1 Cor.11:!0: "For this reason [i.e., because of the rôles of man and woman discussed in the verses right before this verse] the woman ought to have a symbol of authority on her head because of the angels." In other words, the headcovering shows that the woman is submitted to man's authority, and it is important that this token or badge of authority be seen by the angels, both the unfallen angels [the "ministering spirits, sent forth to minister for them who shall be heirs of salvation" (Heb.1:14)] and the fallen angels [those that are "chained in darkness" (2 Peter 2:4; Jude 6) as well as those presently operating as demonic powers].

Those who do not take the Scriptures seriously may be amused by the idea that the presence or absence of a piece of cloth can affect angelic and demonic activity. After all, if angels and demons are real, do they really need to see a headcovering to tell them the woman is submitted to authority? Don't they already know such things? Even unfallen angels are not omniscient; there are many things they do not know.

The Bible tells us that the good news of the Messiah contains "things into which angels long to look"; (1 Pet.l:12). "The secret things belong unto Yahweh our Elohim," Moses tells us, "but those things which are revealed belong unto us and to our children forever, that we may do all the words of this law" (Deut.29:29).

As it is with man, so it is with angels. There are "secret things"; which Yahweh has not revealed to angels, and other things which He has revealed to them. Yahweh has decided that He will show the angels and demons His authority, and the woman's submission to His authority, by means of a visible, tangible covering on the woman's head.

Quote:

To the natural mind, a piece of cloth on a woman's head may seem to be a weak, foolish instrument for imparting divine revelation of Yahweh's authority to angelic and demonic beings. But the Bible tells us that Yahweh has chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and "Yahweh has chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things that are mighty" (1 Cor.1:27).

Readers of the New Testament may recall that when "handkerchiefs or aprons" which Paul had touched were brought to the sick and the possessed, "the diseases left them and the evil spirits went out" (Ac.19:12). This passage confirms the fact that a piece of cloth can, indeed, be used as an instrument to display Yahweh's authority to evil spirits, and affect what happens in the spiritual realm, which in turn affects what takes place in the physical realm. We do not need to understand all the mechanics of exactly how and why Yahweh's ways work, in order to walk in them, just as we do not need to understand all the mechanics of how and why a car works in order to drive it. If the car works, and we drive it according to the rules of the road, we can expect to reach our destination. Yahweh's ways work, and if we walk in them, we can expect results.

The woman who covers her head in obedience to Yahweh should expect to receive more angelic ministry than she would receive without a headcovering. As she prays, prophesies, and testifies, she should expect angels to move and act in conjunction with her prayers, prophesying, and testifying. The woman who does not cover her head deprives herself of blessings that could be hers through the ministry of angels.

Quote:

A PERSONAL TESTIMONY
In 1987 my wife suffered for several months from a chronic illness that doctors could not cure or diagnose. The main symptom was extreme difficulty breathing, accompanied by rasping deep inside the chest. There were also occasional flu-like symptoms, such as severe vomiting. She was given different kinds of medication, but none helped. She was tested for tuberculosis and other diseases, but no explanation could be found. Thinking that perhaps she was allergic to something in the house, we moved. The symptoms still continued. Since the doctors could not cure or diagnose the illness, we simply continued to pray for healing as we had been doing all along.

For some reason, it occurred to me that our unanswered prayer might somehow be connected to the fact that my wife did not wear a headcovering. I cannot recall how or why this thought occurred to me, but it made a strong enough impression on me that I said something to my wife about it. I suggested that perhaps we would have better results if she covered her head when we prayed together each day. My wife's response was polite but typical: "How could that make any difference?" The idea that wearing a piece of cloth on her head might bring about healing seemed foolish to her. I gently reminded her that dipping seven times in the Jordan River to heal leprosy seemed like a foolish idea to Naaman, but when he did it, he was healed (2 Ki.5). I mentioned other Biblical examples of seemingly foolish actions that brought about the blessings of Yahweh. I explained that things which we do in the physical realm affect what happens in the unseen spiritual realm in ways we cannot understand.

"I can't guarantee that it will make any difference," I said. "But it certainly isn't going to hurt anything. What have we got to lose?" In submission to my authority, she began wearing a scarf each day as we prayed together. Within a matter of days, we noticed that the rasping sound had disappeared, and her breathing returned to normal again. As of this writing (1995), the illness has never returned, and I do not expect it to. This sickness, which physicians could neither diagnose nor treat, left of its own accord when my wife covered her head. Is this mere coincidence, or did the headcovering really make a difference? Of course there is no way to prove whether or not wearing a piece of cloth was what made the disease depart. But we know that when pieces of cloth were brought from Paul, "diseases departed" and "evil spirits went out" (Ac.19:12). There is no reason to believe that Yahweh cannot bring similar results from a cloth on a woman's head when it is worn in faith and in submission to Yahweh's delegated authority.

Re: Hebrew Apostolics ??????????????????

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rico (Post 534697)

Ferd, if I told you I thought following the dietary laws in the Bible as a good guideline for healthy eating is a good idea, would that make me a Hebrew Apostolic?

Apostolic or Apostate???:tease

Re: Hebrew Apostolics ??????????????????

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rico (Post 534697)

Ferd, if I told you I thought following the dietary laws in the Bible as a good guideline for healthy eating is a good idea, would that make me a Hebrew Apostolic?

No. if you told me you observed the dietary laws because you were convinced that it was required, then I would say yes.

if you said you felt to do so as a christian, I would say cool. if you told me i was going to hell for not doing so, I would tell you good luck with that.

Re: Hebrew Apostolics ??????????????????

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ferd (Post 534713)

I am not saying that I follow them, but I do think it would be a good idea to use them as a guideline for what we eat. I know that lots has changed since then and pork is much better for us than it used to be, so I don't strict adherence is necessary. Still, it would make sense for us to familiarize ourselves with them.

Re: Hebrew Apostolics ??????????????????

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rico (Post 534763)

Rico, i have no more problem with that than I do someone following a grapefruit diet.

if it works for you great. all i am saying is, lets not add the law to our grace and thus become subect to every letter! (thats what paul said by the way)

Re: Hebrew Apostolics ??????????????????

It would be good for our health to follow the dietary laws but we have no command from the Lord Jesus to do so.

Re: Hebrew Apostolics ??????????????????

I read the article. It was a well presented presentation of Pauls doctrine and the New Testament truth.

Re: Hebrew Apostolics ??????????????????

Quote:

Originally Posted by StMark (Post 534523)

Did he mention the "missing 'J'?"

There's a Yawhist Oneness movement that's been around for years. They make it a point to baptize in the name of "Yehshua" as opposed to "Jesus" because there was no "J" in in the ancient Mediterranean world. They insist that we do Acts 2:38 "wrong" when we say "Jesus."

And they're right about the "J" in the ancient alphabet. There's a group out here who take it to the point of dressing like the 1st century apostles in beards and robes. Looks pretty nice on a hot day, but man! I need my pants when it's 20 below!

Re: Hebrew Apostolics ??????????????????

... I hear they also leave out thier o's in G-d and L-rd.

:D (Just funnin' if you're lurkin' BP)

Re: Hebrew Apostolics ??????????????????

Quote:

Originally Posted by pelathais (Post 535596)

My Friend is not radical about it at all. I know that there is a
group that is though. we had a handful of them leave our church
about 5 years ago. They left tracks on our cars telling us we had
to be re-baptized ,etc.
This group does not wear hair coverings and they are cool
with other churches having church on Sunday. they just
teach that there are benefits to observing the sabbath &
diets.
I know what this radical movement is like!

Re: Hebrew Apostolics ??????????????????

Quote:

Originally Posted by StMark (Post 534523)

This denomination (or denominations) have been around for a very long time. Big on keeping the Seventh Day sabbath and the feast and dietary Laws of the old testement however they are oneness apostolic in that they do Baptize in Jesus Name, believe Jesus is God and that you must have the Holy Ghost speaking in tongues to get to heaven (and of corse worship on Saturday the true Lords day / sabbath).

Now, there are some Hebrew Pentecostals (as they are known through the united states) are very big on women preachers (i.e. elders, bishops and apostles). Some of them keep standards of no make up and jewelry while others do not. Almost 100% of them teach a women must cover their heads in worship with a prayer veil on and most of these churches are of the African American decent.

I use to attempt to go to one when I was transitioning between Saturday (seventh day adventist) and sunday (apostolic). I found it too confusing because they say that Jesus is God but some of them still kill the lamb once a year as a memorial not to be forgotten.

To each his own............ohhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh and they SHOUT SHOUT SHOUT SHOUT SHOUT allllllllll day and night until the sabbath is over (meaning dancing and running the aisles and hooping and hollering with almost no word singing songs about "we dont eat no swine, commandment keepers are we") however NEVER EVER associate them with Seventh Day Adventist because they will tell you in a heart beat their denomination is Apostolic Holiness and in no one associated with the Seventh Day Adventist Church. They have some pretty big churches throughout the United States but no one usually cares to go to them because of the weird concotion of doctrine they have put together with diet laws, feast days and the sabbath (and oh yeah, dont forget the whole shouting shouting shouting).

Do a youtube search on them if you have not already and it wil show you their services.

Re: Hebrew Apostolics ??????????????????

There are several of these groups.

They do not all hold the same level of "Jewishness." Some only keep the Sabbath and not diet. Others keep Sabbath and diet, but not all the feast days.
There is a group in DC that has about 6 churches. I think there is a trend in them in getting mixed up with the "jesus-is-not-his-real-name" nonsense.

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If someone translated my name into Yiddish, is my name Brad or the name it was translated to in Yiddish? (I know, I'm just talking to myself...)

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All I know, is that everytime I've called on that Name, He has shown up!

Re: Hebrew Apostolics ??????????????????

Quote:

Originally Posted by StMark (Post 534527)

Is this a doctrine we can agree to disagree on or
a totally false doctrine that they should be warned of?

These people are definitely part of a legalistic belief system, I'd say maybe even a cult. I heard them on the radio in Alabama once, "You'd better partake in the Feast of the Trumpets" or something to that affect, it's been a few years. But I can still remember the creepiness of the lady's voice.

I ran into a "Hebrew" in Baltimore-- these people are desperately deceived and if you ever thought some UPCI churches were legalistic, check these guys out.

Re: Hebrew Apostolics ??????????????????

I have always thought those folks were comical wanting to be a Jew so bad. I am thankful I am a Gentile and wearing His Name.