Ishmael & Isaac...
 

Last night I lay awake thinking about Abraham, Sarah, and Hagar. When Abraham and Sarah took things into their own hands to 'help God out'...we end up with Hagar's Ismael & Sarah's Isaac duking it out in the middle east for all of time. Was it all in the plan of God? Was it predestination or foreknowledge?

Many things in life I personally consider unfair and unjust...how much of it is our fault and how much of it is in God's plan?

Had God fulfilled his promise to Abraham in a timely way then Abraham and Sarah would not have tried to take matters into their own hands. Do you think that God predestines us to go through things or are we just a bunch of screw-ups?

Just some of the thoughts running around in my exhausted brain.
I'd be interested to know anyone else's thoughts on this matter.

Blessings, Rhoni

Re: Ishmael & Isaac...
 

Without those two twins.. you would never have Armageddon..... God uses humans to fulfill his perfect plan.. he saw Armageddon before Abranham was ever born

Re: Ishmael & Isaac...
 

So they were pre-destined?

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Pre-destined by foreknowledge absolutely

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We have a thread about pre-destionation and foreknowlege...let's concentrate on whether or not God wants us to wait for his rescue or to help ourselves. Does God set us up by delaying his answers/help? Is it his intention that we get ourselves in a bind that we can't get out of before He will rescue us?

Is it proper to ask God these questions?

Re: Ishmael & Isaac...
 

then why was this thread created.. if you didn't want to discuss predes?

Re: Ishmael & Isaac...
 

Blessings, Rhoni

Re: Ishmael & Isaac...
 

I believe if one looks back over their lives.. they will find the answers you are fishing for.... has there ever been one valley he didn't bring you out of in his timing?

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Free will....Sarah could have just fought her impatence. I think Isaac would have come along alot sooner had she waited, but she "laughed" earlier when the 3 angels visited. I don't think we are a bunch of screw-ups.
You can call it pre-destination if you want to, but God will accomplish what needs to be accomplished. Things could have been different, yet still Ishmael would have been born, or a son from Hagar anyway. Sarah could have passed away at a different time. Lots of different sanarios here.
But, free will is what God gave us.
:2cents

Re: Ishmael & Isaac...
 

Does the potter not have Power over the clay?

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Yes He does..... with so many sanarios(God is imaginitive).....and a free will, freely given to us ! Yeah!

And if there was no other way, this was the way.

If I don't fullfill a request for God,...oh, so many different kind of reasons why...I will loose the blessing and God will raise someone else up to help the individual...a little late, ...shame on me...
it's just an example....

This same example can be applied to Judas. If he wouldn't have...what then?
But we know it took a dark spirit to enter him to cause this (this could be your thery of pre-destined.) But God always gives a way-out, a way to be pardoned...Judas couldn't get over what he did and Peter could.....this had to do with relationship with the Lord ,IMHO.
.....but I don't know everything...I'm not God.

Re: Ishmael & Isaac...
 

Scriptures tell us that Judas was born the SON OF HELL.. he was BORN to do what he did

Re: Ishmael & Isaac...
 

Well...ther ya go.

Re: Ishmael & Isaac...
 

There was a time when men did what was right in their own eyes.

God, who at different times and in various ways, spake in times past to the fathers by the prophets...,

The law was given for transgression (sin) until the "Seed" could come. God made promises to Abraham and
Isaac that in "the and thy seed shall all the families of the earth be blessed.

God didn't say "And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to they seed,
which is Christ". God gave His Son the heathen for an inheritance.

Everything was pointing ahead to when Christ would COME. Now we look back to the time Christ CAME. He was that seed in which all the families of the earth would be blessed. Then JESUS came and things changed. Things,
situations, circumstances still change TODAY when JESUS comes! When does
He come? When we all on His Name! His Sheep know Him by Name. They will
not follow another! They know His voice! How! They know the words He spake
when He was here on earth, through His Word. Jesus only SPOKE the words His Father (Holy Spirit) TOLD him to speak. He only DID the things His Father
TOLD him to do. How do we hear the Father's Voice today! By the Spirit and
having His Word in our hearts!

Today IF we will hear His Voice,harden not your hearts as in the provocation.
The time when God was humbling, proving, seeing what was in their hearts
and seeing whether they would obey His commandments or no. (How could He see what was in their hearts? By what was coming out their mouths! Grumbling and complaining, etc.!

He still comes to prove each of us:
He humbles us, proves us during this time, checks our heart, and sees if
we will do His commandments. If we love Him we will have willing hearts:

Ready (willing) to go, ready (willing) to stay;
Ready (willing) my place to fill.
Ready (willing) for service, lowly or great,
Ready (willing) to do His Will.

Jesus said, "IF you love me, keep my commandments". If we love Him,
we will keep His commandments, by obeying His Word (WILL).

Blessings,

Falla39

Re: Ishmael & Isaac...
 

UMMMM
Ishmael and Issac were not twins as is stated in the second post here. I think it is the second post. SEVERAL years between them and different mothers. That does not constitute twins.

Re: Ishmael & Isaac...
 

personally I believe that God allows us free will. We are allowed to make mistakes. God knows all things and He knows what stupidity we will choose. He gives us opportunity to make those BAD decisions but when we do he then knows what else will follow. Again he gives us opportunity to NOT make other bad decisions but if we do he will then do it all over again.
I guess He knows all the possible outcomes and what will follow and if they are bad choices he gives us opportunity to not make them.

Take for example my father. God knew what would happen if my dad made the decision to have an affair. God also knew what would happen if my dad chose to do the right thing. Each had a different outcome and God gave him every opportunity to make the right one. He chose to have the affair. God then knew what would take place. It isn't like God waits till we make a decision to form the path he already knows the path and knows that when my father made his decision that many would leave the church. He gives them the opportunity to not do that but he always knows.
We are allowed to make mistakes and be stupid if we want. The nice thing is still loves us when we make our stupid mistakes and will help us and guide us back to His will if we will allow Him and listen to what he is trying to tell us.

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Read Galatians...

Re: Ishmael & Isaac...
 

If it was in the plan of God it was there by foreknowledge, not because God wanted Abraham and Sarah to doubt and take matters into their own hand

Re: Ishmael & Isaac...
 

Below is sermon by the late Nathaniel Urshan who died in 2002 at the age of 84. I've heard him preach in Cincinnati in the late nineteen fifties when he was pastor of Calvary Tabernacle which was a large church in Indianapolis, IN. From 1978 to 2002 he was the General Superintendent of the United Pentecostal Church. His father, Andrew Urshan, was Assyrian and was born in Persia in 1884 He came to the United States in 1902, and returned to Persia in 1914 where he survived the massacre of the Assyrians and Armenians by the Turkish and Kurdish Muslims. I heard Andrew Urshan preach in the nineteen fifties when I was in St. Paul, MN. Once I heard Nathaniel's uncle speak and he told about avoiding death in Israel/Palestine by some times passing as an Arab and some times as a Jew. They were quite a family of preachers and had first hand experience in the struggle between Arabs and Jews which is the theme of this message. I don't know the date of this message but the way it is worded I think it was a message that Bro. Urshan gave over the radio when he was speaker for the Harvestime broadcast of the United Pentecostal Church. The latest date he mentions is 1956 but it still seems appropriate for our day. I hope you enjoy it.

THE WORLD'S GREATEST FEUD
By: Nathaniel A. Urshan

The top news stories on radio, television, newspapers and magazines tell of the titanic struggle between the Arab nations and Israel. In an ever increasing crescendo, the Near East seems to be heading for a world conflict and Armageddon. Russia is building up its military forces on land, at sea, at air, boasting that she is there to protect the interest of the Arab countries. A number of world powers are supplying arms to either the Arabs or Israel and some to both.

But most people do not realize that this is the world's greatest family feud and that problem is 4,000 years old. It is the battle between the star of David and the crescent of Mohammed. The most dramatic family story in history is the story of Abraham, his two wives, Sarah and Hagar and finally, his two sons. His sons, Isaac and Ishmael, initiated the worlds longest and earliest family feuds, greater in intensity than the Hatfields and the McCoys.

FAMILY DIFFERENCES
This family struggle began in the tents of Abraham. God had promised Abraham and Sarah that He would give them a son who would bless the entire world. Abraham, known for his faith, faltered at God's promise and took an Egyptian servant girl named Hagar as a concubine. With Sarah's consent, permission, and also suggestion, Abram had a son born of Hagar whom he named Ishmael. If Sarah and Abram had believed the word God had spoken to them concerning an heir, there would not be this bloody story of the fighting brothers who are destroying each other this very moment. Sheer unbelief caused a slave girl who was an alien and a heathen to become the mother of Ishmael and wife of Abraham. It is truly amazing that a wrong committed thousands of years ago has such violent repercussions today.

The Arabs and Israelites have one father. It was the mother who made the worlds of difference. Not only was Hagar a foreigner and idolatrous in Abraham's house, but Genesis 21:21 states, "And he dwelt in the wilderness of Paran: and his mother took him a wife out of the land of Egypt." The records state Ishmael's mother chose an Egyptian as his wife. This forever links and ties the Egyptian and Abrahamic worlds together. Ishmael and his sons after him mostly settled in the north and west of the Arabian peninsula. His posterity forms the chief element of the Arab nations.

What a different world was created by Isaac who is called the Son of Promise. Isaac was born to Sarah and Abraham in the hundredth year of Abraham's life. Isaac was a miracle child and his offspring were to know miracles as no other nation in history. Through the watchful care of Abraham, Isaac married Rebekah, a Jehovah fearing woman of the family of Abraham. In Genesis 24:40, it declares, "He married Rebekah of my kindred, and of my father's house." In this way the two worlds began and from that time these estranged brothers have moved further and further apart.

to be continued

Re: Ishmael & Isaac...
 

RELIGIOUS DIFFERENCES

The Moslem religion is based on a belief in one God. They call his name Allah. Their Bible is the Koran which they read and recite daily. The Koran demands daily prayer, alms giving, and at least one pilgrimage to the holy city of Mecca during the life of a Moslem. There are more then 300 million Moslems living today. The Moslem faith has done little to elevate and educate its adherents as anyone can see by studying its history in a number of lands. A strange religious contradiction is that the Arabs look to Abraham as their father but to Mohammed as their prophet.

On the other hand, Isaac and his son Jacob followed Abraham's religion. Their worship began with Abraham's teachings and continued to Moses from whom they received the law. Then to Judges, Kings, and Prophets of the Old Testament, each revealing more of God to the nation. Also, the Jews adhere to the Talmud, which is a collection of rabbinical writings explaining how to live as a believer in Jehovah. They accept the Old Testament as their basis of belief including its laws regarding religious observances, sanitary procedures, dietary rules and moral principles.

There is a tremendous resurgence of traditional Judaism in the world at this moment and the grand hope of building again a Jewish temple in Jerusalem. This would be the first time such a temple existed in the last 2,000 years since it was destroyed by the Romans. One visit to the wailing wall in Jerusalem today reveals the ardor and the zeal of modern day Jews crying out for expected Messiah to return.

PROPHETICAL DIFFERENCES
Never have there been differences between brothers, like the differences between these two, who until this day represent complete opposites. There are promises which God made to the Arabs. Genesis 16:9-12"And the angel of the Lord found her by a fountain of water in the wilderness, by the fountain in the way to Shur. And he said, Hagar, Sarai's maid, whence camest thou? and whither wilt thou go? And she said, I flee from the face of my mistress Sarai. And the angel of the Lord said unto her, I will multiply thy seed exceedingly, that it shall not be numbered for multitude. And the angel of the Lord said unto her, Behold, thou art with child, and shalt bear a son, and shalt call his name Ishmael; because the Lord hath heard thy affliction. And he will be a wild man; his hand against him; and he shall dwell in the presence of all his brethren." God said that Ishmael would live in the presence of his brethren, but that his hand would be against them. Certainly this is one of the greatest prophecies of the Bible which we can see fulfilled at this very moment.

On the other hand, Isaac received God's covenant made with Abraham. "Now the Lord had said unto Abram, Get thee out of thy country, and from thy kindred, and from thy father's house, unto a land that I will shew thee: And I will make of thee a great nation, and I will bless thee, and make thy name great; and thou shalt be a blessing." Genesis 12:1,2.

At the end of this dispensation these two brothers will disagree violently and will be on opposite political and religious sides. The political leader, called in the Bible, the Antichrist, will seek to bring peace between them. The Arab nations will agree with and fight with Russia when she comes against Jerusalem in the prophecy of Ezekiel, chapters 38 and 39.

POSITION OF THE CHURCH
Both these brothers agree on one thing and that is the denial of Jesus Christ as the only begotten Son of God and the Saviour of the world. But it is most interesting that on the day of Pentecost when the church was born, that Jews and Arabs received the Holy Ghost and both were received into the church the same day. Acts 2:11: "Cretes and Abrabians, we do hear them speak in our tongues the wonderful works of God." The revival of the day of Pentecost is also prophetic of the last day revival when God will hear Jew or Arab who calls upon His name.

The political position of the church between Arab and Jew is neutral. We do not want to see refugees of any kind in the world. We do not rejoice in human suffering among any people. We love all the nations of the world. However, Bible scholars who understand prophecy predicted for centuries that Israel would go back to her own land in the end time. Today it has come to pass. Because it offends or hurts some group or nation, we cannot read just the prophetical scriptures. It must come to pass.

Every time the Jews have returned to Jerusalem after a dispersion, some great event takes place. The Jews first took Jerusalem after returning from 400 years in Egypt. David was made King and Solomon his son built the first temple. Hundreds of years after they went into Babylonian exile and finally returned, the second temple was built. The second temple was the one Jesus Christ ministered in and went from to Calvary to shed His blood and to save the world for almost 2,000 years. Now, at the end of the Gentile dispensation, they have returned to Jerusalem. They will surely build another temple to welcome the King, their Messiah.

THE END OF THE FEUD
Christians know that the Lord Jesus is coming again soon. Psalm 102:16 declares: "When the Lord shall build up Zion, he shall appear in his glory." The entire world knows that Zion is being built up. Prophetical students expect Jesus Christ to appear in glory. As the Semitic brothers clash on the holy mountains of Israel, let every person who wishes to be ready when the trumpet of God shall sound and the dead in Christ shall rise, and we that remain and are ready shall go to meet the Lord in the air. Prepare for that great event; for that great event is not far hence.

Every indication in our day, every event in that Near Eastern country trends in the direction of the final and catastrophic battle that will bring bloodshed upon our earth. Signs that are appearing in many other instances around our world again agree with the prophecy of the scriptures.

As we appeal to you today we are urging you in the name of the Lord to pray for the peace at Jerusalem, for with that peace, there is peace in the earth. God bless you, my friend. The events of prophecy indicate the nearness of the coming of the Lord in this great family feud.

to be continued

Re: Ishmael & Isaac...
 

PROPHECY OF ISRAEL FULFILLED
I'm reading a scripture from St. Luke 21:24. It reads like this. "And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations; and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled." This is a very pertinent scripture that is found in the writing of Luke, in the Gospel of St. Luke. It is also a terse statement. There is a terse statement in this verse that is related to another portion of the Word of God. This statement is "Until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled." This is a very important statement. It has a great meaning, and it is described in a very definite sense in the Bible, as a time when Gentile power shall come to an end as it pertains to the matter of the little country called Jerusalem or called Israel, today.

When it comes to the matter of the nation of Israel today, the focal point of world history has been upon that little area of country, Israel. For, from that country, not only has come forth some of the ancient thrilling stories of all time, which includes Abraham and his seed, but also from that little area of the world has come the Savior which has brought salvation to mankind. And at our present hour, that little area of the world has now become the focal point of unrest and distress to the international leaders of all mankind. You ask some of the questions that surround it and we answer with this. It has been prophesied throughout the Word of God that this little area would be a concentrated position in the time of the end. The war in the middle east is an outgrowth of conflicting claims that go back to biblical days. If you will remember that, it will help you.

When Abraham was ninety years old, according to the Bible, the Lord appeared unto him and said, "And I will give unto thee, and to thy seed after thee, the land wherein thou art a stranger, all the land of Canaan for an everlasting possession;" You will find this in Genesis 17:8. Abraham had a son named Isaac to whom the Jews trace their origin. According to the Bible, God confirmed his everlasting covenant with Isaac and through his son, Jacob, with every succeeding generation of the Hebrews. However, Abraham had another son named Ishmael, from whom the Arabs claim their descent. According to the Koran, God promised Ishmael that he and his seed would be dominant. Today, the descendants of Isaac and the descendants of Ishmael are fighting for possession of the land of Canaan, which the Arabs call by its Roman name, Palestine, and the Jews call Israel. This tangled, emotional-laden dispute can perhaps best be understood as a rivalry between the people who once regarded themselves as close cousins if not as brothers.

The Jewish nationalist movement, known as Zionism, had its origin in the nineteenth century in eastern Europe. They believed that by returning to Palestine and regaining contact with the soil that gave birth to a Jewish religion, culture, and nationhood, they could regain their sense of dignity. In 1903, Britain offered Zionists an autonomous territory, Uganda, then a British territory. But, the Zionists turned it down, insisting on Palestine. The Zionists saw their real chance to regain the Palestine of the Holyland when it became a theatre of fighting. Under a British-French agreement of 1916, Britain was to take control of Palestine and Iraq after the war while France took Lebanon and Syria. Long before the war ended, the Zionists began bringing pressure on Britain to restore Palestine as a Jewish homeland.

The result of these pressures was the 1917 Balfour declaration named after the Foreign Secretary, Arthur James Balfour in which Britain said she would view with favor the establishment in Palestine of a national home for the Jewish people and would use her best endeavors to facilitate the achievement of this objective. Under British civil rule, established in 1920, under a mandate of the League of Nations, Arab extremist attacks on Jews were often matched by Jewish terrorism. Tension rose so high that a British royal commission in 1937 declared the mandate unworkable and recommended the petition of Palestine into an Arab state comprising two-thirds of the territory and a Jewish state. This formula formed the basis of a petition plan adopted ten years later by the United Nations' General Assembly. The Arabs refused to recognize the petition. As soon as the British mandate ended and the state of Israel was proclaimed in May, 1948, the neighboring Arab states invaded Israel. After several aborted truces, the war ended January 7, 1949.

Under armistice agreements, Israel added 2,380 square miles, mostly in Negev and West Galilee, to the 5,760 square miles assigned to the Jews under the United Nations' petition. The neighboring Arab countries received more than 700,000 Arab refugees driven from their homes in Palestine. Most of them found refuge in Jordan. The armistice agreements established four mixed armistice commissions, each with representatives of the countries involved and the United Nations' chairman. However, the commissions were unable to keep the peace. Palestinian refugees often stole across the borders at night to take fruit and vegetables from the fields that had once been their own. More serious raids followed. Israel embarked on a policy of reprisals and intensification of raids on both sides resulted in the Israeli invasion of Sinai on October 29, 1956. This invasion was supported by Britain and France with hope to use the opportunity to reoccupy the Suez Canal, nationalized by Egypt earlier in 1956. The Israeli attack was a success. In seven days, the Israelis routed 35,000 Egyptian troops, killing 3,000 of them. And, today, we are now looking at the shambles of war that apparently was started by the hostility of Arabs and is now in complete dominance of the Israeli nation.

We look at these things with a good deal of concern. Somebody says, "Is this a prophecy of the Bible coming to pass?" My friend, if you are acquainted with the Bible, it ought to bring you face to face with the fact that prophetically, there is a very definite trend that is developed in the theme of Bible prophecy. And that is, that one day the land of Palestine or Jerusalem, would be restored to the Israelites, and when it was restored, it was a very definite signification that the Lord Jesus Christ would soon return for his church. And, at His return, that there would come in a desolation and a tribulation such as the world has never seen.

The question that is being asked today as we view the spread of the war theatre in that country is, "Is this the hour that we are looking for? Is this the time that the Bible speaks about? Is this the moment in world history that all eyes focus upon Jerusalem as a time of prophecy fulfilled?" My answer to that is this: There never was a time in history when Bible has found such close prophetic fulfillment as it has in this moment. If ever there was a time when the Bible finds itself as an interesting book concerning fulfilled prophecy, it has to do with the condition that now exists in the theatre of war between the Israelis and the Arabs. And, not only does it have a most timely Bible relationship, but the fact that the old Jordanian city is now in the hands of the Israeli nation means that there is the possibility, the very, very important possibility, that the complete homeland of the Israelites will be given to them; and then, there will start a rebuilding of all the related holy Hebrew Shrines that would foretell the return of Jesus Christ. For, Jesus taught, when the fig tree would bud (that fig tree, of course, is Israel) that this was the time of the coming of the son of man.

I would call your attention, everyone that is listening to me today, to the fact that we are seeing many things take place in Bible prophecy that is most amazing and most astonishing. In one instance, while this prophetic fulfillment of the material condition exists over in Jerusalem, right now the Lord is pouring out His Holy Spirit upon hungry hearts. I do realize that many people are not willing to heed the voice of God about the call of that Spirit. But, while this war is continuing, God is calling with His voice to the hearts of men and women all over this world, to come to a place of prayer, and to seek the face of God, and to kneel in repentance as they recognize the close proximity of the return of Jesus Christ.

Yes, my friend, the Bible is a true book of prophecy. And, today, we are beginning to see the astonishing events that have been prophesied a long time ago. As a boy, I heard preachers preach that these things would come to pass. They seemed so remote. Today, we are sitting on a tender box-a tender box of realism. The world could go up in a smoke of torment and fire and at the same time, Jesus Christ could return for his church. We are living in a day that is most astonishing. But, at the same time, it is very promising. For in the midst of the trouble of the war, my Lord is coming back to earth again. Our cry to you today is to get ready to meet your Lord; for this is the hour; for this is the time; for this is the moment that is prophesied by the Word of God.

Re: Ishmael & Isaac...
 

Maybe it is time we dropped everything we are doing that isn't related to kingdom ministries and go out into the harvest and reap while it is day!