Breaking into church cliques
 

Through the years many churches have been known for their attitude of "us four and no more", and breaking into cliques of family or friends who have always done things the same way, with the same people for as long as anyone remembers. Just where is it that the new member/new convert fits?

Having been on both sides of the fence, Pastor's wife & saint, I have seen the clique issue from both sides. Pastor's & their wives hate to cause waves, especially new Pastor's & wives...so what are they to do to break the cliques, and allow others into leadership roles.

I only know the wrong way...we took a well-established church and within two years had revamped it and they pretty much kicked us out...even though what we did worked. No one really cares if it works or not...they just want to do things the way they have always done them.

So, this is an opportunity for some of you to educate me: how would you suggest making changes in leadership that would benefit the church without alienating the "pillars of the church"?

Just curious,
Rhoni

Re: Breaking into church cliques
 

I can think of one, and only one, method. Constantly cave to the complaining of "the pillars" and consistently lift them up as true saints. Make them feel important. Compliment them at every turn. Elevate them!

I wish I was joking, but if we are talking about a small number of people (or large number in some cases), if the choice is souls or keeping some "pillars" happy, I'll take the souls.

Re: Breaking into church cliques
 

Bro Randy,

That is a nice, idealistic thought, but not quite the reality.

Blessings, Rhoni

P.S. What about taring up the good wheat while trying to pull out the weeds?

Re: Breaking into church cliques
 

S-L-O-W-L-Y. A little tic, but seriously, we have made a lot of changes at the church I attend over the last 4 or 5 years, and it has been a real struggle with some of them, but overall, there hasn't been a large revolt.

It helps if all of the leaders are on the same page, but the biggest keys in what I have seen, is do it fairly slowly, and don't change too much at once.

One example is the traditional song service. We started using 3 main music groups (Adult Choir, Youth Choir and Praise and Worship Team), and one of them leads the worship every service. So it was fairly easy to eliminate the song books this way, it caused minimal outrage because the whole format was different. But we also try work a "song book" song into the mix fairly regularly for the older saints.

It is really a tightrope, you test test the waters a little bit to see the reactions and figure out what will work with the individual congregation. Some of the changes our congregation just jumped in to, so you really never know!

Re: Breaking into church cliques
 

I would assume that using the phrase "without alienating the "pillars of the church"" indicated that you think they would be resistant to any change.

Re: Breaking into church cliques
 

Yes, you are right in that assumption.:friend I'd give for isntances but I couldn't handle the remarks tonight so I'll let you guys talk and I'll listen for a change:tease

Re: Breaking into church cliques
 

Yes, I understand the concept of slowly... but waiting until they all die off is a bit disparaging.:tease

Re: Breaking into church cliques
 

I will add my two cents- it is worth just about that,too-I have been part of leadership- not at a church, but I think the principles carry over, and I have been on the receiving end of leadership change in a church. I think with leadership change- you have to prove first that you care for the group of people you are leading, gain their trust and appreciation and then begin to change things but slowly. First, you must have a plan or vision for where you want the organization to go. Next, you must communicate that vision or plan to the people, i.e. saints. Then you must communicate it again and again. The change cannot be just because you think it is best for the church. Remember, it is the saints church, too. They have worked long and hard for that church and have a vested interest. I think that people will accept change if you have done a good job laying a foundation as to why you are bring about the change. If they understand why, there is a need for change, then they will accept it. This is a slow building process that will take place over several years. JMHO

Re: Breaking into church cliques
 

This is true...wisdom speaks!

Thank you,
rhoni

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Being in a clique, how would one go about bringing others into it instead of leaving them out? Or should you?

Re: Breaking into church cliques
 

Fantastic post, BB!!! :hug4

Re: Breaking into church cliques
 

The Elephant is still in the auditorium.

Re: Breaking into church cliques
 

Just yesterday Pastor Eddie said that if churches have cliques, they aren't growing churches!

Re: Breaking into church cliques
 

Quote....even though what we did worked. No one really cares if it works or not...they just want to do things the way they have always done them....

Amen Sis Rhoni :):)

Re: Breaking into church cliques
 

Great post. Too often I've witnessed people come in and try to change things and the very way they approach it almost comes across as an indictment of how things were done before. When the message is sent or even perceived that you feel like most of what they were doing before was wrong, you set the foundation for a lot of defenses and resistance. In order for them to get onboard with you, they would almost have to be agreeing with that notion of their past efforts.
I think that you should allow key people to be a part of the actual formulation of the direction. Even if you are steering them in the direction you feel led to go, if they feel like they are one of the architects it makes it easier to sell. Too often new leaders come through the door with a whole new gameplan already formulated and that can be trouble.
When I was new to leadership in my current church, I first tried to learn why things were done the way they were. There were many things that I thought could be done differently, but afetr a while I understood why they were done the way they were. On the other hand, in those areas that I saw should still be improved, I was very careful in how I went about effecting it.

Re: Breaking into church cliques
 

It isn't that people don't come in, but most churches this way, have as many going out the door as coming in.

Re: Breaking into church cliques
 

:friend

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There are still some things that haven't been said...:whistle

Re: Breaking into church cliques
 

.....start a small group ministry.....split all the cliques up..cant be in a small group with anyone from your clique,,..then send the small group pastor on an extended vacation to Maui!!!! LOL

Re: Breaking into church cliques
 

If you think cliques are bad, you should have been there on the Bible study night when the pastor decided to preach against sects in the church.:whistle

Re: Breaking into church cliques
 

:ursofunny :ursofunny :ursofunny

Re: Breaking into church cliques
 

Sects is ONLY ok in the bonds of Marriage. Sects is beautiful and lovely for married people, it is a gift of God... created for both intimacy and procreation

Re: Breaking into church cliques
 

You should have called me...I'd have flown in for that one:tease:friend

Re: Breaking into church cliques
 

Yes, Rhoni, I agree...not absolutely certain we are on the same page. I have a post in my email but I am going to run it by my dh. :):) All of it is true... but not sure I should post it as it will surely be considered mega anti ultra con. :):roseglasses

Gotta get my work handled... will be back tonite.

Happy Tuesday everyone, Jo

Re: Breaking into church cliques
 

Ummmmmmmm maybe we are on the same page. :):) Haven't we all seen too many come and go. Of course, some are looking for something they will never find. God is love!

Re: Breaking into church cliques
 

JO,

That is the Elephant I am talking about, and it is not only related to ultra-conservatives. Some things just are and will not be changed. No one wants to hear about it because they don't like to make waves and the trouble to change a paradigm takes too much energy and time.

This is sad. I think one day God will hold us accountable for not doing what we could have done because of the fear of people, reputations, and fear of losing finances.

Blessings, Rhoni

Re: Breaking into church cliques
 

Churches don't know how to make room for new workers, some more qualified, and some less...but everyone needs a place. Many saints, or those in ministry positions, are afraid if someone else does something then they will be replaced, or it may be done better than it has been done and they will feel embarrassed. Therefore they ostrasize, make excuses why it wouldn't be a good idea, or maybe even the "we tried that once and it didn't work", or maybe they are satisfied because they are patted on the back and told they are "cutting edge" when in fact that edge was cut 20-30 years ago.

There are many reasons why things are the way they are. You have to be born in a family with the power to be able to be used whether you are particularly good at something or not. You have to hand it to Jonathon, when he was next in line for the throne [his father's position as king] and saw the calling on David and befriended him to preserve his life and ministry.

Blessings, Rhoni

Re: Breaking into church cliques
 

Great Post and something I left out when I wrote mine- (I was watching the Olympics while I wrote.) This is a key componet to change - Buy in- Unless the people of the organization feel part of the change- then they will resist the change.

Re: Breaking into church cliques
 

Exactly. People have to feel vested. That is the key to faithfulness monetarily, and in attendace. If you are not vested you will be inconsistent and alienated.

Blessings, Rhoni

Re: Breaking into church cliques
 

Waiting for you Sis. BTW, I love that picture of you...how old were you there?

Blessings, Rhoni

Re: Breaking into church cliques
 

Yes, Sister Blu, that is a beautiful post. Bless you and Lord help me.

Dear Lord, I have seen it work this way in churches...If you want to be in the main clique..... it is so much about serving your time... I mean years attending one church , being there every time the doors open, volunteer for everything possible, saints are going to follow the preacher so accept it, your tithing must be more than the percentage you would be expected to pay, contribute to missions and all other incidentals, watch what you say because the saints and preacher might be insecure and think you are going to try to take over, be sure you are involved at the alter whether you feel lead spiritually or not, go to so many church services that you can hardly go to work and the kids can't wake up to go to school, be sure to help w/ Saturday at the homeless shelter....... it's seems it is all about following the pastor instead of the Lord. Anyway, many of you may reject this post and others may realize I left much unsaid.

Now I am NOT saying there is anything wrong with any of the above as long as you
are in agreement and it is working for you....... our children made better grades when they started meditating on scripture and yes they rarely missed church... Even I attended a church where the pastor's wife attempted to make one feel .... never miss Sunday church, no vacations, she said she kept a list of those who miss on Sunday... oh meeeeeeeee The Lord is and was my strength!!..
Suggestion: If one cannot handle the above, I would advise considering going to a church so large that you get lost in the congregation. Then one can be at church to hear God's word and really nothing else unless you wish to join a social groups. You probably will not know any of the people you sit around each Sunday. A church so large that they have 4 or more services.
You will miss the intimacy of a church family but there are no demands from leadership.


PS Some of the clique issues work for me... I strongly believe in giving... in fact, we plan to get something to sweet Sis Alvear's ministry soon.

Re: Breaking into church cliques
 

Sis. Jo,

WOW. What can I say...you have said it all. Thank you for your honesty. I know there will be those who will say they never had such an experience in a church like that...God bless their hearts. The pit is made for those who live in denial:tease

I once had a Pastor tell me, in order to be a part of their church, I must:
1. Submit to the UPCI affirmation dress code.
2. Pay my tithes.
3. Pay a missions offering every month.
4. Pay a % of my income to the building fund every month
5. Go through a period of 'proving'
6. And, even then I make no promises about using you.
Disclaimer: I am not, nor have ever been a member of that church.


They lost me at 4-6.:aaa

Re: Breaking into church cliques
 

The "apostolic" pattern that works seems to be to start an entirely new work down the road. This is the time proven method - throughout the 20th century at least, and it's not restricted to "apostolics" either. Most fundamentalist and neo-evangelical churches operate this way - or they die.

I like the idea of working with what already exists and nurturing it and watching it grow. But I have seen too many examples where folks just expel the "outsiders" or where if the "outsiders" are able to get control they expel the "pillars." There are hurt feelings either way.

To avoid this, a lot of churches have established "dynasties." A father-to-son hand off works nicely, unless your father is Uranos or Cronos (warning: graphic). To avoid the complications of such dynasties going on into the centuries, the Roman Catholic Church forbade its clergy to marry. This resulted in a centralization of power as the "plum" churches were doled out to those considered reliable by the heirarchy and would later produce problems of its own.

So, what to do? It depends upon the expectations of the people already in place. If the majority want business as usual, then you'd better play along while they slowly die off. If there's a core group that sees things your way but they have no control, then open up a store front in a handy location.

Starting from scratch is scary and may not be for everyone. And you still need to have the right team in place to make things work. But you avoid some of the civil wars that plague just about everything human beings have attempted to do from the very beginning.

Re: Breaking into church cliques
 

Pelathais,

This is good stuff here. I guess the way I see it, many churches allow "daughter works" across town to avoid "church splits" , but many times the results are the same. If the main church still has control of the daughter work then it becomes a place to send all disgruntled or 'saints that don't fit in', or even a place to send those saints whom the main Pastor feels needs 'discipline'.

Home missions work a town over is an alternative, and you are correct - it is hard work but can be very rewarding. If you have the call, and the talent to back it up then you can build a church that far surpasses the one you were avoiding.

Church dynasties can't truly be avoided for several reasons: The current Pastor needs to feel important enough to be "pastor Emeritis", or the Bishop, as the son or son-in-law take over the church. This keeps the money flowing into both families since there is very little in the way of retirement funds left for the Pastor who has sunk his life's work into that one particular church.

As long as the Pastor thinks the church belongs to him, God cannot truly operate and have control. It is a great leader who can mentor other leaders, and not be afraid, but empower others to take their place.

Blessings, Rhoni

Re: Breaking into church cliques
 

Just throwing out a little food for thought. Starting out with some great posts so far.

Every church, family, corporation has its cliques. Just ask the CEO who wants to make change in a family dynasty corporation. Much of this is what has been done through the years without anybody challenging what has been done in the past. We can't. It's just the way it is. Henry Ford only wanted one color for his Model T's. Black Why change if it has worked in the past. Even if it has outlived its usefulness. We are creatures of habit and tend to flock to those who agree with our point of view. Maxwell has good insights.

A good man of God may have a few of his own hang ups coming from his upbringing. Even prejudices or hurts. Many people are willing to overlook some of these things for the greater good even if they don't agree with everything. He is radical. Not rude he just tells it like it is. In time they accept and even defend what has been done or preached based on their love for God and patterns of habits. Cookie cutter style. Some people emulate him. He has some form of success. New traditions form. Just take this man and place him in another church (like Paul) and have him introduce his ideas into a well established church with its own traditions.

The new convert that doesn't understand our habits being at church so much with their own lifestyle. Just the merger of two opposing ways of life. Maybe nothing wrong with their going to bed early, strong emphasis on school study habits, great involvement in school sports, school leadership etc.. I want to love God but all this. Change takes time.

Just ask a wife if she agrees with everything her husband does? A husband his wife? Yet they endure after the honeymoon even if she never changes Him and his habits. lol Some things have no real bearing yet they tear at each other because of the pressure from the rest of the family (clique). We've always done it this way for Christmas. Small things turn into great big battle grounds. The fight ensues till the compromise occurs. The pattern of things holds strong ties so we make them icons. Family traditions. Let somebody break tradition and what an uproar happens.

Like the good Samaritan story Jesus told. Peter not sitting with the Gentiles. Paul rejecting John Mark to go on a missionary journey with him. This caused the dividing of Paul and Barnabas. Though Paul later admits to take Mark for he is profitable for the ministry.

We become so used to the same, change is hard. Just ask Martin Luther when he challenged the Roman Catholic church and its patterns. The 95 thesis he nailed to the door at Whittenburg. Much of what they were doing was not even Biblical yet everybodies fear of the establishment for their lives (literally) kept them quiet. They had their pillars who were very strong. The Pope, Bishops, Cardinals, puppets, etc.. The common folk just accepted what was going on. They were able to do whatever they wanted without challenge.

Anybody got conviction. Both ways, this is not right or this is the way its always been. That is why there has been so many branches off the protestant churches. It is now happening in Pentecost. Nobody is able to dictate what you should believe. If so we would still be under the rule of the RCC and there would be no gentiles in the church and we would still be living under the ceremonial laws. All protestants would have rejected the Azuza street revival and Oneness would have never left the AOG

Blessings
Pastor DT Salaz

Re: Breaking into church cliques
 

Excellent Post. Thank you...this is something to think about all day long.

Blessings,
Rhonda