New Testament writer had long hair
 

From Eusebius, Church History Book 2
http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/250102.htm

3. The manner of James' death has been already indicated by the above-quoted words of Clement, who records that he was thrown from the pinnacle of the temple, and was beaten to death with a club. But Hegesippus, who lived immediately after the apostles, gives the most accurate account in the fifth book of his Memoirs. He writes as follows:

4. James, the brother of the Lord, succeeded to the government of the Church in conjunction with the apostles. He has been called the Just by all from the time of our Saviour to the present day; for there were many that bore the name of James.

5. He was holy from his mother's womb; and he drank no wine nor strong drink, nor did he eat flesh. No razor came upon his head; he did not anoint himself with oil, and he did not use the bath.

6. He alone was permitted to enter into the holy place; for he wore not woolen but linen garments. And he was in the habit of entering alone into the temple, and was frequently found upon his knees begging forgiveness for the people, so that his knees became hard like those of a camel, in consequence of his constantly bending them in his worship of God, and asking forgiveness for the people.

7. Because of his exceeding great justice he was called the Just, and Oblias, which signifies in Greek, 'Bulwark of the people' and 'Justice,' in accordance with what the prophets declare concerning him.

8. Now some of the seven sects, which existed among the people and which have been mentioned by me in the Memoirs, asked him, 'What is the gate of Jesus?' and he replied that he was the Saviour.

9. On account of these words some believed that Jesus is the Christ. But the sects mentioned above did not believe either in a resurrection or in one's coming to give to every man according to his works. But as many as believed did so on account of James.

10. Therefore when many even of the rulers believed, there was a commotion among the Jews and Scribes and Pharisees, who said that there was danger that the whole people would be looking for Jesus as the Christ. Coming therefore in a body to James they said, 'We entreat you, restrain the people; for they are gone astray in regard to Jesus, as if he were the Christ. We entreat you to persuade all that have come to the feast of the Passover concerning Jesus; for we all have confidence in you. For we bear you witness, as do all the people, that you are just, and do not respect persons. Matthew 22:16

11. Therefore, persuade the multitude not to be led astray concerning Jesus. For the whole people, and all of us also, have confidence in you. Stand therefore upon the pinnacle of the temple, that from that high position you may be clearly seen, and that your words may be readily heard by all the people. For all the tribes, with the Gentiles also, are come together on account of the Passover.'

12. The aforesaid Scribes and Pharisees therefore placed James upon the pinnacle of the temple, and cried out to him and said: 'You just one, in whom we ought all to have confidence, forasmuch as the people are led astray after Jesus, the crucified one, declare to us, what is the gate of Jesus.'

13. And he answered with a loud voice, 'Why do you ask me concerning Jesus, the Son of Man? He himself sits in heaven at the right hand of the great Power, and is about to come upon the clouds of heaven.'

14. And when many were fully convinced and gloried in the testimony of James, and said, 'Hosanna to the Son of David,' these same Scribes and Pharisees said again to one another, 'We have done badly in supplying such testimony to Jesus. But let us go up and throw him down, in order that they may be afraid to believe him.'

15. And they cried out, saying, 'Oh! oh! the just man is also in error.' And they fulfilled the Scripture written in Isaiah, 'Let us take away the just man, because he is troublesome to us: therefore they shall eat the fruit of their doings.'

16. So they went up and threw down the just man, and said to each other, 'Let us stone James the Just.' And they began to stone him, for he was not killed by the fall; but he turned and knelt down and said, 'I entreat you, Lord God our Father, forgive them, for they know not what they do.' Luke 23:34

17. And while they were thus stoning him one of the priests of the sons of Rechab, the son of the Rechabites, who are mentioned by Jeremiah the prophet, cried out, saying, 'Stop. What are you doing? The just one prays for you.'

18. And one of them, who was a fuller, took the club with which he beat out clothes and struck the just man on the head. And thus he suffered martyrdom. And they buried him on the spot, by the temple, and his monument still remains by the temple. He became a true witness, both to Jews and Greeks, that Jesus is the Christ. And immediately Vespasian besieged them.

19. These things are related at length by Hegesippus, who is in agreement with Clement. James was so admirable a man and so celebrated among all for his justice, that the more sensible even of the Jews were of the opinion that this was the cause of the siege of Jerusalem, which happened to them immediately after his martyrdom for no other reason than their daring act against him.

Re: New Testament writer had long hair
 

Someone please explain passage marker #5. It was New Testament, so was a writer of one of the NT books a rebellious, long haired hippy since he had long hair and the Nazarite vow was not longer in effect (for those who see the law being 100% abolished under grace)? I dare you to take a crack at it and prove this source being off.

I'd love to see how my brothers who like the "old paths" think about Christianity circa 70 AD and before.

Re: New Testament writer had long hair
 

New Testament writer was a WOMAN!!!:yahoo

Re: New Testament writer had long hair
 

:)

well.. we do know there was a female apostle mentioned in scripture.. but thats not a fun one to cover for the "no women preachers" crowd...

http://www.godswordtowomen.org/rissjunia.htm

Romans 16:7 - Salute Andronicus and Junia, my kinsmen, and my fellow-prisoners, who are of note among the apostles, who also were in Christ before me.

Re: New Testament writer had long hair
 

I imagine it will be silence like usual from the cons when presented something that flips the arguement on them. it will get emotional, they will accuse and say its twisting the wording, or that its somehow a exception of the unbendable rules they make for the sheeple.

Re: New Testament writer had long hair
 

I get my doctrine from the Word, not some uninspired historian, Brother.

Paul said it was a shame. That's good enough for me.

Nothing to debate.

Re: New Testament writer had long hair
 

For some reason, probably in the midst of his work at Corinth, Paul took on himself the Nazarite vow. This could only be terminated by his going up to Jerusalem to offer up the hair which till then was to be left uncut. But it seems to have been allowable for persons at a distance to cut the hair, which was to be brought up to Jerusalem, where the ceremony was completed. This Paul did at Cenchrea just before setting out on his voyage into Syria (Acts 18:18).

On another occasion (Acts 21:23-26), at the feast of Pentecost, Paul took on himself again the Nazarite vow.

Re: New Testament writer had long hair
 

ok then :)

the question then stands should be cut the book of James out of the cannon because he was a shameful man (feel free to enjoy that line of logic)? this is a pretty accurate source, and the historian wouldn't have included anything negative about a apostle if it was considered to be shameful... in fact he wrote many books against gnostics and various heretics to defend the faith pre-council of nicea.

Re: New Testament writer had long hair
 

As to the duration of a Nazarite's vow, every one was left at liberty to fix his own time. There is mention made in Scripture of only three who were Nazarites for life: Samson, Samuel, and John the Baptist (Judg. 13:4,5; 1 Sam. 1:11; Luke 1:15).

Re: New Testament writer had long hair
 

thats a good line of debate, i've actually thought about that myself. so was the nazarite vow over when the temple was destroyed by Titus in 70 AD and the law was negated in that way... or is it still ok to this day? and was long hair a Corinthian/eastern issue because of its assocation with male prositutes in Corinth... or is it a universal church issue? And is the Nazarite vow the only exception for it? food for thought.

Re: New Testament writer had long hair
 

I wuz a woman preacher back in "the day". :) I am well aquainted.

Re: New Testament writer had long hair
 

Who cares? Is this the best choice you can find for debate? Whether someone had long hair?:snapout

Re: New Testament writer had long hair
 

It is funny watching people selectively accept history depending on whether it aligns with their views or not... :)

Re: New Testament writer had long hair
 

it goes both ways, liberal and con :)

in some ways the progressive have a easier job than the conservatives. any good debater knows its way harder to defend something than to deconstruct it given enough time, effort, and diet coke.

Re: New Testament writer had long hair
 

First of all let me ask YOU this, Who is Hegessipus that we should place any credence in him? He is identified by some as a Greek convert others as a Jewish convert and some have even claimed that he is a heretic that translated Apollonius' manuscripts taken from the Hindus of India into Greek in the second century. One group even claims that Hegessipus intended to replace the worship of Christ as the central figure of Christianity with the worship of Apollonius!

No you will have to do better than that to stir up trouble around here.

I SUGGEST you touch on the subject of lights, fog machines and the veil if you really want to get a rise around here.

Just my opinion, valuable as it is.

Re: New Testament writer had long hair
 

Does anyone have inspired-of-God writings that indicate James had long hair? lol We need Bible, and not fallible history.

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It is human nature to accept what we like and disapprove what we don´t like...
However when we say the scriptures teach something we must really know that the scriptures teach it. To say I perfere is the best if we are in doubt.

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fog machines are gonna be tougher to drag outta scripture or accepted history :)

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I know this is about James but what about Paul and his N. vow?
I am not for men with long hair but this interests me to know how to give an acceptable answer.

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Jude 2:2:tease

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Maybe just maybe there is more to the single verse in Scripture that some think forbids long hair on men. If it is soooo important why is there nothing about it in the OT and in fact several verses that are contradictory to it.

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He seems to have been a 3rd generation christian most likely. St. Jerome also quotes his writings and seems to have a high opinion about him.

he was most likely a Jewish convert and not a Gentile/Greek convert.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hegesippus_(chronicler)

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/07194a.htm

http://www.earlychristianwritings.co...egesippus.html

Re: New Testament writer had long hair
 

I am a book worm! I love to study and find things like this very interesting.

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Yup, its worth discussing considering how many folks are turned away by the hair standards.

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I shutter to think of the killing on the altars...

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and for the sake of the UC...I do not cut my hair...

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thats why i dont own a TV, just so i can say i don't when among the weaker brethren.

Re: New Testament writer had long hair
 

Well, I said that so the UC´s won´t be out saying Sister Alvear has gone charismatic...

A few times I just posted my thoughts and did not make myself clear and the police run to another board to discuss me...lol...

Re: New Testament writer had long hair
 

Really sad that people enjoy tearing others down. We live in a sick world.

Re: New Testament writer had long hair
 

yup. but its always tough when debating religion, politics, and a few other topics to not get personal. i see it from both sides. conservatives see those who are similar but different enough to be a real threat... therefore you must magnify the differences to seperate the "wolves from the sheep" in their frame of mind.

liberals who lose a belief in the sanctification process or their respect for scripture usually drift off into soem variant of universal salvation or extra-biblical heresy. each side has its weaknesses if the person who holds the position doesn't see the end of the road of their direction if gone too far.

i have good friends who are cons and good friends who are liberals (within the context of the apostolic movement.. which is actually still pretty darn conservative overall). its really the person who makes it work or not, not necessarly their philosophical starting point on a given issue. i've actually gotten more conservative on some things lately like the issue of pastoral/spiritual authority (within reason) while getting more progressive on other things that are extra-biblical or debatable at best.

i have noticed in the last year that the cons quit fairly easily when they get outflanked and don't maintain good counter arguements very often, and they rarely use any scholarly works or solid exegesis of scriptures when making their points. they also make it personal way more often. the only time as far as i know i've ever gotten personal was one time when i called someone a false teacher on the hair issue, and i accepted that i went over the line on that one on a online forum since it was a pretty hard hit. but for the most part what we discuss on here really isn't heaven and hell.. its just cultural and personal convictions expressed to a larger crowd as "the rules"

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at least you get to see what they are saying, ive get banned from most of them on sign-up or within a day or so like what happened at JP when they said they wanted to be a full spectrum forum in the very beginning (that lasted about 3 days before the mass bans).

Re: New Testament writer had long hair
 

no, people tell me what is going on I do not post over there.

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all the people who decided what was infallible died in the 4th century or so... :(

Re: New Testament writer had long hair
 

im suprised people would say your going chrismatic. you seem pretty middle of the road overall from what ive seen.

then again i doubt most of those who throw around the word chrismatic actually know any on a personal friendship level. even within the charismatic movement there is a wide (much wider if truth be told) spectrum of folks from those who are true believers in the Word of Faith/prosperity doctrine, to those who are into Spiritual Warfare and all the stuff that goes into that subset, to folks who actually aren't that much different from a classical pentecostal in the AOG or Church of God/Cleveland, TN type of template.

I've spent some extra time visiting other types of churches and making friends outside the apostolic movement over the years so i get to see a bit more than most. they really aren't the boogieman they are made out to be. just like when i defend oneness apostolics to charistmatics... i say most of them are sincere, attend fairly normal churches with a few hangups, and most of them are indeed not cult churches (though there are a few..). i usually wrap it up with them by gently reminding them they have weirdos in their ranks too they wouldn't want to attach themselves too in the local church setting like Kim Clement and others.

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In Pentecost sadly many spend their whole life judging people.

Re: New Testament writer had long hair
 

wonder what they would make of the original topic of this thread? the fact that both authors remarked that James the Just was a "holy man" because of his lifestyle which included not cutting his hair.

its a interesting twist on our teachings about standards that a man can be accounted as having extra holiness because he didn't cut his hair as a sign of devotion to God.

neither historian was attacking James, they were infact commending him as a example of what a christian man should strive for becoming. you would think if it offended their sensibilities they would point that out or exclude the fact that James was a "shameful" man with feminine hair since their biggest concern was building up apostolic authority and succession in defense of the Gnostics and false teachers cropping up with new revelations and false books of scripture. it would seem that him having long hair wasn't a disgrace in itself. otherwise its hard to imagine that Paul wouldn't have ripped him to shreds when they met. it would seem that Pauls letter to Corinth was dealing with a local issue and perceptions of the local culture at that time with men having long hair and what it represented in that particular city/region 19 centuries ago.

Re: New Testament writer had long hair
 

anyone with the name James (or Jacob or Ya'akov) can't be all bad

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Yeah, but how about that guy Timotheus? :tease

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It is my understanding that the name Timotheus or Timothy means dear to God of precious to God, and I believe that you are precious or very dear to God.

Re: New Testament writer had long hair
 

Bro...those vows can still be taken. Even Paul shaved his head after fulfilling a vow temporary vow of this sort.