New Doctrine Emerges: NOT Forgiven at Repentance
 

From another thread:Sniff ... sniff ... sniff ...

FALSE DOCTRINE ALERT!!!!

You stand with the Roman church on that one, Mizzy ...

Not even Bernard or most of the 3 step crowd has gone that haywire.

Do you agree w/ Mizpeh in her new-fangled 3 step doctrine that our sins are not forgiven at repentance?

Re: New Doctrine Emerges: NOT Forgiven at Repentan
 

Daniel,

Don't be so hard on "M". Truth is many of our Apostolic friends do not know the scriptures or how to defend their belief system.

*hugs*
Rhoni

Re: New Doctrine Emerges: NOT Forgiven at Repentan
 

Our sins are remitted, after we are baptised in Jesus name, following repentance.

Re: New Doctrine Emerges: NOT Forgiven at Repentan
 

Hmmm ... let's see, I guess we need a new song.

"At the Cross" isn't good enough.

At the creek,
At the creek,
Where I first saw the light
And the burdens of my heart rolled away,
It was there by water I received my sight
And now I go sputtin' all the day ...

By the way, we've heard that little catch phrase in all our lives ... another UPC saying that sounds good and soothes the masses but no one really knows what it means.

Now will one of you great theologians elaborate well and be specific and tell me what the difference is between FORGIVENESS and REMITTANCE?

Re: New Doctrine Emerges: NOT Forgiven at Repentan
 

Actually, whether admitted or not ... forget all this stupid arguing about where the blood is applied.

To a "three-stepper", your sins are not forgiven until you've spoken in tongues.

If not ... why not?

Will any three stepper say you can go to heaven without speaking in tongues?

Well, if your sins are forgiven, remitted or whatever in the first or second step but you never take the third ...

Doesn't THAT mean all your sins are forgiven but you can't go to heaven because you haven't spoken in tongues?

To keep from being placed in a ridiculous position, a "three stepper" must believe your sins are not forgiven until you've spoken in tongues - that in itself being a ridiculous position.

Once again ... if not - why not?

Re: New Doctrine Emerges: NOT Forgiven at Repentan
 

Ye must be born again of the Spirit. If you do not have the Holy Ghost you are none of his.

When repentance is coupled with baptism in the Name of Jesus, the curse of sin is lifted, and you are born of the water. John 3:3-5 very plainly states this is essential to see and enter into the Kingdom of God.

1st PETER 3:21.. Baptism saves us.

What is your understanding of the above verses?

Re: New Doctrine Emerges: NOT Forgiven at Repentan
 

They realize that denying forgiveness of sins at repentance is problematic and makes no sense which is why I had to ask and ask and re-ask, (thus the comment "ok prosecutor") the same question. Instinctively they know that to say "yes your sins are forgiven at repentance" would be equal to saying one is saved, thus the continual dodging of the question.

Re: New Doctrine Emerges: NOT Forgiven at Repentan
 

Tim R.

Simple one question.

Are your sins forgiven when you ask God to forgive you at repentence?

Re: New Doctrine Emerges: NOT Forgiven at Repentan
 

When it is coupled with Baptism, in the Name of the One that died for you.

1st Peter 3:21 and John 3:3-5. What is your take on thiese scriptures?

Re: New Doctrine Emerges: NOT Forgiven at Repentan
 

I am going to save us both a lot of time and just post the dance from last night. feel free to skip to the end and join Rome, or be converted and become a Christian.

Re: New Doctrine Emerges: NOT Forgiven at Repentan
 

OK, lets dance.

Though you have given me your explanation you have not answered the question.

Try one of these for a start.

Yes, but...

No.

Re: New Doctrine Emerges: NOT Forgiven at Repentan
 

I think this is a result of a fundamental misunderstanding of the elements of our salvation. In order to be saved one must undergo Justification, Regeneration, Adoption, and Sanctification. All are provided and accomplished by the blood. When one repents they are “justified by faith” (Romans 5:1). Once, “justified”, they are forgiven and made “just” so that they can approach the Lord to receive the baptism Holy Ghost. The baptism of the Holy Ghost begins the process of, “regeneration”, as the old man is subdued by the Spirit and the new man is made alive by the Spirit. Then one takes their first step in obedience…water baptism. When one is water baptized in Jesus name they are buried with Christ and take his name upon themselves, this provides for our “adoption” into the family and Kingdom of God. Throughout this entire process we are coming into obedience and being made right before God, setting us apart for His sacred use; so from repentance to both the Holy Ghost and water baptism one is in the process of being “sanctified”. This "sanctification" continues throughout one’s life as they continually yield and surrender to the prompting of the Spirit of God.

So the blood is indeed applied at repentance and one is justified and sanctified before God…but the blood isn’t finished.

Indeed the blood is at work in water baptism in Jesus’ name as one is adopted and sanctified before God….but the blood isn’t finished.

Yes, the blood is even at work when one receives the baptism of the Holy Ghost and their regeneration begins...but the blood isn't finished.

And lastly….the blood is still at work throughout the believer’s life as they are continually sanctified in their walk in Christ.

Brothers and Sisters….our salvation is all by the blood. Our salvation can’t be broken up into individual elements for each is dependent upon another. It is a single whole.

That’s my understanding.

Re: New Doctrine Emerges: NOT Forgiven at Repentan
 

I did not read this last post.

John 3:3-5 means what? And how is one born again of the water and Spirit? Jesus said you cannot enter or see the kingdom of God unless your born again.

Please answer. How is one born again?

hint... Acts chapter two, and verse thirty eight.

Re: New Doctrine Emerges: NOT Forgiven at Repentan
 

Some are jumping to repentance only and others are turning Catholic to affirm water baptism. Again....both extremes are terribly mistaken.

Re: New Doctrine Emerges: NOT Forgiven at Repentan
 

We haven't yet answerd the first question posed, I will let you start your cross examination when I am finished and my witness is dodging the question.

Re: New Doctrine Emerges: NOT Forgiven at Repentan
 

One isn't saved unless they have undergone:

-Justification (occurs at Repentance)

-Regeneration (occurs at Holy Ghost baptism)

-Adoption (occurs at Jesus name water baptism)

-Sanctification (occurs throughout one's life beginning at repentance)

And it's all provided and accomplished by the BLOOD.

Consider the entire work...

Acts 2:38-40 (KJV)
38Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
39For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the LORD our God shall call.
40And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation.

Re: New Doctrine Emerges: NOT Forgiven at Repentan
 

Lawyer.. I believe I posted on this thread first. And posed the answer and or question concerning John 3:3-5. And 1st Peter 3:21.

How is one born again?

Re: New Doctrine Emerges: NOT Forgiven at Repentan
 

Let's be very clear about your answer, though there are a number of problems I want to focus on the same question as before.

Are sins forgiven when one repents?

Re: New Doctrine Emerges: NOT Forgiven at Repentan
 

And if you had been keeping up you would find this thread is a continuation from last night. It is obvious why you don't want to answer the question. Because to answer the way you want makes you a Catholic in theology, and to answer it correctly means there are no sins left to be forgiven when one is baptized.

Re: New Doctrine Emerges: NOT Forgiven at Repentan
 

I was not in the discussion yesterday.

Tell me how one is born again. And obviously you are the one avoiding the scripture. Got scripture? We usually base our beliefs on scripture verses.

Acts 2:38 is a good one.

Re: New Doctrine Emerges: NOT Forgiven at Repentan
 

Yes. Sins are forgiven and one is justified at repentance. This is why many receive the Holy Ghost before water baptism.

However, if one refuses to be water baptized in Jesus name they are in rebellion...and their sin will be upon them.

Re: New Doctrine Emerges: NOT Forgiven at Repentan
 

Again I do't interpret the entire Bible by Acts 2:38, but Acts 2:38 by the Bible.

Being Born again has nothing whatsoever to do with baptism and speaking in tongues. All one has to do is honestly read the entire passage in context without inserting words to see this.

Now back to the question that you cannot answer because it torpedos your entire theology.

Re: New Doctrine Emerges: NOT Forgiven at Repentan
 

If my sins are forgiven, that is no sin remains, then what stands between me and God?

One can only rebel if they know a command, one cannot rebel in ignorance, but that is way beyond where we are.

Re: New Doctrine Emerges: NOT Forgiven at Repentan
 

Ye must be born again. How is one born of the water and Spirit?

WE differ big time. Because being born again of the water is Baptism.

Got scripture?

Re: New Doctrine Emerges: NOT Forgiven at Repentan
 

Maybe Bernard is not as far off from Mizpeh as we think:

http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homep...al/New-Ch5.htm

Most 3 steppers I've encountered ... even here say Forgiveness happens at repentance .... while remission happens at water baptism.

I believe Elder Epley would agree this is the common notion among 3 step theology

Re: New Doctrine Emerges: NOT Forgiven at Repentan
 

Court is adjourned. I have the opportunity to have lunch with my wife today which doesn't happen often since we work 30 miles apart.

In the interim Tim R. take so time to figure out how you are going to either input sin to the forgiven or have God withhold forgiveness.

I can answer your question fully but let’s start at the beginning and first determine what happens at repentance.

See I was happy to answer your question about water and Spirit without explanation, you on the other hand will not address the question posed.

Re: New Doctrine Emerges: NOT Forgiven at Repentan
 

Nowhere does the Bible say one must be born AGAIN of water and spirit. I believe that Jesus, in bringing up the water issue, was answering the question of going back to the womb to be born again when Jesus told him he 'must be born again.' Jesus answered him, saying that a man must be born of water AND spirit--water being the first birth, and spirit being 'born again'.

That's my take on it anyway. I feel that baptism is a spiritual issue, not a water one. We are baptised into the spirit of God, otherwise we are just getting wet. It has spiritual symbolisms.

As for the answer to your question? I agree.

Re: New Doctrine Emerges: NOT Forgiven at Repentan
 

Really. Jesus never said water is baptism ... Nor does the author of this Gospel. In most cases, John relates water to the Spirit. (John 4, 7, 11)

Re: New Doctrine Emerges: NOT Forgiven at Repentan
 

So, if sins are forgiven at repentance, but not remitted until baptism, then God really doesn't forgive at repentance, the way I see it. To forgive, but to leave them there as a mark against you, is not true forgiveness.

Re: New Doctrine Emerges: NOT Forgiven at Repentan
 

Re: New Doctrine Emerges: NOT Forgiven at Repentan
 

Then your answer is no.

Re: New Doctrine Emerges: NOT Forgiven at Repentan
 

You don't have scripture for the above. Being born of water is not a birth we can do again. If you think Jesus was saying so, then you also believe there are two baptisms, which also goes against scripture that says there is one.

I believe in being baptised, but I don't believe I was born again at baptism. In fact, I've never heard of that belief until coming here.

Born again at baptism? Hmmm...

Re: New Doctrine Emerges: NOT Forgiven at Repentan
 

Those would be 2-steppers!

Re: New Doctrine Emerges: NOT Forgiven at Repentan
 

Strong's says that remission is the pardon of sins as if they were never committed. It's different than forgiveness, but I have to admit, I don't fully understand.

If baptism is the pardon, why aren't we baptized more often? God continues to forgive when we ask, and He forgives, but are they automatically remitted after we are baptized the first time?

Re: New Doctrine Emerges: NOT Forgiven at Repentan
 

The writers of the Scriptures dictate the meaning ... not translators ...

they used one word for both forgivenes and remission ... aphesis.

There is no separation. You will not see this in the NIV, ESV, NASB or even in the Spanish RVA

It is for this reason that Bernard, and maybe even, Mizpeh ... have to include repentance + baptism = aphesis/forgiveness/remission ...

to remain true to the Word.

Re: New Doctrine Emerges: NOT Forgiven at Repentan
 

The Holy Ghost does not inhabit an unclean heart (full of sin), therefore it stands to reason that sins are forgiven at repentance.
Baptism does not wash away our sins. Only the blood of Jesus Christ can do that.
But we must have the blood, water, and Spirit applied to live an overcoming life in this world.

Re: New Doctrine Emerges: NOT Forgiven at Repentan
 

Ah ... yes .... the Cornelius dilemma ... nor what is quickened to life still be dead. (Acts 10, Romans 8)

Re: New Doctrine Emerges: NOT Forgiven at Repentan
 

Rhoni, don't assume I don't know what I'm talking about or was indoctrinated into this belief. I searched it out after I was taught it and I believe it is what the Bible teaches. Dan can be as hard as he wants, I'm not afraid to be labeled. But thank you for your compassionate words.

Re: New Doctrine Emerges: NOT Forgiven at Repentan
 

I think you don't know what you're talking about on this one either. Would love to hear your exegesis on this extreme view.

Re: New Doctrine Emerges: NOT Forgiven at Repentan
 

Ah, yes, the knife cuts both ways.

According to this theory, the Holy Ghost cannot dwell in an unclean vessel, therefore every time someone sins the HG has to leave, then we repent, and the HG comes back in and so on and so forth. :snapout