Ministers to Defy I.R.S. by Endorsing Candidates
 

The New York Times reported: "Defying a federal tax law they consider unjust, 33 ministers across the country will take to their pulpits this Sunday and publicly endorse a candidate for president."

For a minister or church to be under a 501c3, they have to agree to certain IRS guidelines. One of these is to obey the Federal Tax Law that bars religious organizations and other nonprofits that accept tax-deductible contributions from involvement in partisan political campaigns. So if a minister has agreed to these stipulations, can he then break that law by officially supporting a candidate from the pulpit? Do you think the ministers mentioned in the NY Times article is doing the right thing?

Re: Ministers to Defy I.R.S. by Endorsing Candidat
 

got no problem with it. lets level the playing field.

liberals get away with it all the time and cons get nailed to the wall when they make the mistake of supporting conservitives.

Re: Ministers to Defy I.R.S. by Endorsing Candidat
 

I found out about this a week or two ago. It infuriates me to no end!!! These guys, and I'm quite familiar with their group, do NOT speak for me, neither do I want them to swat the "bees nest", simply because THEY want to endorse from their pulpits. Ministers don't need to use their pulpits for a direct endorsement. There are many other ways to let it be known how you feel about a certain candidate.

I certainly don't want them messing up the church's tax exempt status for the rest of us!! These guys are arrogant, pompous (IMO) and really do believe that they are responsible for George Bush being elected last election. This is an elitist group who really think they have WAY more authority than they really do!

Want to know how I REALLY feel about this? :D

Needless to say, I will not be following their lead!

Re: Ministers to Defy I.R.S. by Endorsing Candidat
 

its odd to me that you feel like this.

liberal preachers do this kind of thing nearly every sunday. the IRS generally leaves them alone.

whats wrong with challenging some aspect of the tax exempt law? shouldnt a congregation decide what they want to support?

Re: Ministers to Defy I.R.S. by Endorsing Candidat
 

I personally don't want my pastor or anyone else telling me who to vote for.

Re: Ministers to Defy I.R.S. by Endorsing Candidat
 

But do you want the government in control of that decision?

I dont either. but I dont want that decision resting with the federal govenment. I want it resting with me and the people I go to church with.

Re: Ministers to Defy I.R.S. by Endorsing Candidat
 

I do all the time and I don't thumb my nose at the IRS while doing it. The law is the law and I have no problem with it. I'm not stupid. I well know how to let my feelings be known about a candidate. It has never bothered me. Don't swat the bees nest unless you're certain you can outrun the bees. Arrogance thinks it is faster than the bees.

We will NEVER change our culture through politics or political endorsements. That is the fallacy of the religious right. And remember, I am the Executive Director of a Federal PAC. :D

Re: Ministers to Defy I.R.S. by Endorsing Candidat
 

I guess I don't care enough to put much effort into changing the law. There are things I would call my congressmen about. This isn't one of them.

Re: Ministers to Defy I.R.S. by Endorsing Candidat
 

my point is that this particular regulation seems to be heavy handed.

im not trying to change American culture in any way. but i dont mind when someone makes a challenge.

how are you harmed by this? you dont violate this restriction.

Re: Ministers to Defy I.R.S. by Endorsing Candidat
 

I don't see this as just them publically approving or disapproving of a candidate; rather it is more of an issue about their honesty. Remember, by publically speaking in favor of one candidate over another, they are breaking a law that they agreed to uphold. Do you think them doing this is still "no problem"?

Re: Ministers to Defy I.R.S. by Endorsing Candidat
 

Have you ever thought about operating your church as a “Free Church”? When a church operates under that umbrella they are free from the IRS restraints in the 501c3.

Re: Ministers to Defy I.R.S. by Endorsing Candidat
 

I agree!

Re: Ministers to Defy I.R.S. by Endorsing Candidat
 

MOW, I agree with you 100%!! The only force that can bring real change is Jesus Christ and His Church!

Re: Ministers to Defy I.R.S. by Endorsing Candidat
 

Are you a minister that is 501c3? What about your church?

Re: Ministers to Defy I.R.S. by Endorsing Candidat
 

I am not a pastor. our church is 501c3.

My pastor (with or without the IRS Regulation) would never endorse any candidate. Our church is one of the most diverse in our area.


I still say that the option ought not be based on government regulation, but insetead be based on desire of the congregation.

Re: Ministers to Defy I.R.S. by Endorsing Candidat
 

Render unto Ceasar what is Ceasars! When you sign to accept their rules to get tax exempt status, you are binding yourself to that law! Keep your word or pay the taxes!

Re: Ministers to Defy I.R.S. by Endorsing Candidat
 

To me, that stuff doesn't belong in the pulpit, but and Democrat politicians have been getting away with using churches as campaign platforms for years, so... what ever.

Re: Ministers to Defy I.R.S. by Endorsing Candidat
 

I feel no restraints. :D

Re: Ministers to Defy I.R.S. by Endorsing Candidat
 

If preachers would cease trying to be worldly and carnal, they would know what to do. A man of God need not tell people who to vote for or whatever. If we would teach the people to be led of the Spirit and the Word, and walk in the holiness therein, they would be able to discern correctly and their vote would reflect that.

No pastor has ever been called to preach politics. They have been called to preach the Gospel. Modern churches desire to proclaim purpose driven nonsense and church growth foolishness, when the pastors need to fall on their faces, turn to God in true repentance, get the garbage out of their churches, and proclaim what thus says the Lord.

The call is to preach the Gospel, preach truth. if a man of God has done this, and the soul has truly repented and turned to God, then that soul will vote according to what he sees.

In other words, the choice is clear, and pastors need not tell people who to vote for. I assure you, after all I have seen about Obamanation, I am not voting for that man. No pastor had to tell me to not vote for him. His policies are not godly, he is not godly.

Re: Ministers to Defy I.R.S. by Endorsing Candidat
 

The black church has been doing this since the 60's without any reprocussions.

Re: Ministers to Defy I.R.S. by Endorsing Candidat
 

Re: Ministers to Defy I.R.S. by Endorsing Candidat
 

The Constitution overrides any clause in any regulation of any branch of the government such as the IRS. Freedom of speech is the 1st admendment!

Re: Ministers to Defy I.R.S. by Endorsing Candidat
 

So br Eply according to you, a man's word doesn't matter any more because the constitution give him the freedom of speech, even if the free speech is a lie????
The constitution does not override any document that gives certain benefits if you give your word and sign that doc.
This is the argument the UPC ministers use to secretly have a TV in their home after signing the affirmation statement.

Re: Ministers to Defy I.R.S. by Endorsing Candidat
 

The Constitution is the American Caesar we render to not some governmental regulation that is always evolving. If the UPC made some regulation against the the Constitution of the org. then I would agree.

The 1st amendment trumps a regulation every time.

When pastoring I never did endorse a canidate nor party so this is not personal with me.

Re: Ministers to Defy I.R.S. by Endorsing Candidat
 

So a preacher can sign an agreement for which he has no plans of keeping? Wow!

You do know that neither a church nor a minister has to be under a 501c3 to be tax exempt, right? But if they want the "benefits" a 501c3 offers, then they must agree to uphold its stipulations. So, are you really saying that if a preacher agrees to uphold those laws, they do not have to keep their word? :blink

Re: Ministers to Defy I.R.S. by Endorsing Candidat
 

What about what the Bible says about lying? Does the Constitution override that also? Please, explain how your statement is not against what God said in Revelation 21:8?

Re: Ministers to Defy I.R.S. by Endorsing Candidat
 

Re: Ministers to Defy I.R.S. by Endorsing Candidat
 

"You cain't pray a lie." - Mark Twain, Adventures of Huckleberry Finn

Re: Ministers to Defy I.R.S. by Endorsing Candidat
 

Well, there are laws that forbid you to scream "fire" in a crowded theater. So even freedom of speech has its limits.

Re: Ministers to Defy I.R.S. by Endorsing Candidat
 

Brother Light, I am not a pastor. with our without this rule, my pastor would not, from the pulpit indorse anyone or any party or even point... pointedly toward his "Bibilical" concepts like on the subject of abortion. BECAUSE we are a very diverse congregation and our people support many different polictical views.

That is our right... BUT it is NOT the governments right (in my humble opinion) to tell any of us what we can and cannot say... ESPECIALLY about politics.

I would no more deny Reverand Jerimiah Wright the right to say what ever he wants, than I would any conservitive preacher.

It isnt the business of the government to tell us what we can and cannot say. Especially on 2 very important even sacred subjects. FAITH and POLITICS.

These men who have put themselves on the line have not lied. They have challenged a law, and they have informed the authorities of their actions.

They have taken (in my humble opinion) a sacred stand on the very principles this nation were founded on. God bless them for it.

And if EVERY single one of them were endorsing Barak Obama, I would feel exactly the same.

Peace to you my brother.

Re: Ministers to Defy I.R.S. by Endorsing Candidat
 

There is an old saying.

When laws are unjust, just men must not obey them.

I would agree with you that these men were in violation of the law if they were slinking around violating this regulation and trying to get away with it.


That isnt what they are doing. they are taking a JUST stand in full view of the regulators, intending to make this an issue. if they lose, they will pay the price. If they win, they will have won a victory for all of us.

Re: Ministers to Defy I.R.S. by Endorsing Candidat
 

Nice saying, but in this case, it does not apply.

This is not about their patriotism or about their Christian rights; this is about them reneging on their word.

No offense, but do you understand what a 501c3 is? Maybe that's the problem? There is NO LAW that says a church or a minister HAS to be under a 501c3. The US Constitution already makes every church and minister exempt if they qualify as a "free church." But if a man or church wants the "benefits" of a 501c3, then they have to agree to obey its rules. These men agreed to those rules. They gave their word, and in return the Government allowed them to operate as a 501c3. If we took what you're saying as being true, then it’s acceptable to lie for financial gain. Do you really believe that?

If these preachers want to endorse a candidate all they have to do is drop their 501c3. Afterward, they could say all they want and would not be breaking any laws. Instead, what these guys want is to have their cake and eat it too. How can a lie ever represent Truth?

At the heart of this matter is the fact that a preacher is never allowed to lie...under any circumstance. Yet these guys are using the guise of their “American rights” as an excuse to do just that. The kicker is that they claim they’re doing this to help the government. Have they forgotten what the government is? Can’t they see past the marbled buildings, and see the people that work within its system? How much positive impact do you think those preachers will have with government employees that know they lied to the government?

Re: Ministers to Defy I.R.S. by Endorsing Candidat
 

The church I pastored did not have a 501C3. I would not endorse a canidate however If a man chooses to I think the 1st Admendment of a regulation it is thoer choice I think the Constitution supercedes any regulation.

Re: Ministers to Defy I.R.S. by Endorsing Candidat
 

Can someone explain the advantages 501c3 has over Free Church?

Re: Ministers to Defy I.R.S. by Endorsing Candidat
 

A: What a bunch of hypocrites. Loose the tax exemptions or obey the regulations. Seems pretty simple for a honest hearted christian to me.

B:Churches that don't have community programs don't deserve to be tax exempt anyway. Doesn't seem like they do anyway. They are not charities, so why should they be tax exempt?

Re: Ministers to Defy I.R.S. by Endorsing Candidat
 

Even one you give your word to uphold?

Re: Ministers to Defy I.R.S. by Endorsing Candidat
 

Being a charity , or having community programs is not what qualifies a group to be tax exempt. Being a Not For Profit organization is what makes them tax exempt.

Re: Ministers to Defy I.R.S. by Endorsing Candidat
 

I am not sure what "not for profit" means or how churches qualify when preachers are getting wealthy running churches (of all kinds. This has nothing to do with Apostolic or any other name brand) and the buildings are costing millions of dollars. I kind of think uncle Sam should get a chunk of that $100,000.00 stained glass window.

Again, I am admitting my ignorance in this area though. I know my old pastor was very good about this whole deal. He talked about how other ministers would abuse it, and that is what got me thinking the whole thing was kind of weird.

His example was that he bought a lawn mower that he would be using to mow the church (several acres at least)but would also mow his personal property with it. He chose not to go TE with that because he would be using it too, but said a lot of pastors have would do differently. I just kind of thought, why would they not pay the 6.5% anyway? How does buying it for a religious group entitle them to a tax break.

Every other not for profit group I can think of is community oriented and/or charitable organizations.

Re: Ministers to Defy I.R.S. by Endorsing Candidat
 

Jeremy, no offense, but you really need to study on this subject before forming an opinion. Your post makes it clear that you do not understand what qualifies as non-profit.

Also, it’s evident that you do not know the ministers that I do. Those guys give a whole lot more than they monetarily gain. If you were also out there in the trenches you'd understand....

Re: Ministers to Defy I.R.S. by Endorsing Candidat
 

We want to preach politics and anything else from the pulpit except what we are called to preach, and then wonder why no revival.