Is God Free to Not Chose to Love and Save All...?
 

....or, is He constrained by the very nature of His being, is God bound to love and save all?

If God loves you and desires the very best for you, how could sending your children, parents or other loved ones to "endless torment" or extermination, be consistent with loving and desiring the best for you?? Will He not instead by His love and power bring all your loved ones to salvation as well?

Is wiping your memory of your loved ones loving? Why instead wouldn't God simply continue pursuing your loved ones until they surrender to His irresistible love.

Something to think about.......

Did you know Origen taught unconditional salvation also?

Is God a just God? Can God lie?

Isa 33:14 The sinners in Zion are afraid; fearfulness hath surprised the hypocrites. Who among us shall dwell with the devouring fire? who among us shall dwell with everlasting burnings?

Unconditional salvation is not a accurate definition of "universal reconciliation", the fact that God wills that all come to repentance, and that Jesus came to seek and to save the lost. He will seek until every one of His creation bows willingly and declares Jesus Lord, and at that point He will have become their Lord. God does not lie, "the PURE in heart shall SEE God" and "all flesh shall SEE the salvation of God."

Finally, the OT uses the term "everlasting fire" to define fire that achieves its purpose. There are numerous examples of "everlasting fire" the has quite definitively "gone out".

Yes, Origen embraced universal reconciliation, and he was rejected by the later "church fathers" because of it. At the time of his life it was a fairly common view, and has been the view of many well known church leaders thru the ages.

Have you decided what you think about this?:winkgrin

His Righteousness demands true and merciful judgment. We know He can do whatever he chooses to do. But there are some things He will not do because of WHO He is.

Granted. GOD IS LOVE.

He is the FIRST cause, has He caused something that requires unmerciful punishment?

Man comes into this sin infected world with "brain damage" toward righteousness, so he is "handicapped". In this context if he does not find the right combination of belief......? Does seventy sinful years, truly and mercifully, equal endless damnation?:winkgrin

Does 70 years of self-willed living and rejection of the love of God equate to temporary damnation?

I have four children, one 35 year old special needs son (difficult), a 23 year old very compliant son (easy), a 21 year old wonderful daughter(easy), then a 21 year old, creative, artist, question everything son (hard). Every one of these guys are loved unconditionally, but they all have required different approaches on mom and dad's part to understand and parent them. The middle two have been a breeze and always a joy (almost always), our 35 year old has taken everything we have had, likewise our 21 year old.

But as I have continued to love and to listen and to understand and reach them out to them they too are becoming more and more a joy, in other words we are becoming friends. Will God, who planted the love of our children in us, do any less for HIS CHILDREN? Just because someone is difficult and mean, does not necessarily mean they have "rejected the love of GOD", they simply don't KNOW Him yet.

To answer your question, I believe it equates the refiners fire.

Great post! And so much more does our heavenly father love us!:tiphat

I do see what you are attempting to communicate.

But can you explain why a lving God "drove" Adam out of the Garden? Why God allowed Achan to be stoned? Why He destroyed the earth by flood? Why He destroyed Sodm and Gomorrah by fire and brimstone?

One should bever confuse the love of God for humanity for unrestricted mercy. He is not willing that any should perish, but some will.

I agree, but I disagree that to perish is what tradition has taught that it is. Many are perishing (to waste) all around us, as the examples you present. I believe each of these examples exemplify God at work to eventually bring about the reconciliation of all things. Our physical lives are a thumbnail of God's plan for mankind. One definition of "judgment" is the setting of things right, using this connotation, "...it is appointed unto man once to die, and after that the (setting of things right) judgment". This in no way excuses sin or the rejection of Jesus' scarifice.

I am currently reading a book by Edited by Robin A. Parry & Christopher H. Partridge "Universal Salvation? the Current Debate" it is fairly in depth for and against by several authors. I particularly am drawn to Thomas Talbott's arguments in favor of. He has written a book "The Inescapable Love of God."
I believe this a debate that the church is going to have to engage straight away. JMHOs

Be Blessed I'm going to bed. Thanks for you responses, please continue.

As God said, "Jacob I have loved but Esau I hated."

Hello, Chan we've had this conversation before haven't we?

If this quote from scripture actually means God "hated" Esau, and all those that Calvinists says He has not elected, then it would be accurate to say, "god is hateful". This scripture reflects the way God was dealing with Esau in contrast to Jacob, some children must be dealt with more severly than others. Esau was a tough guy, an outdoorsman, he proabably grunted more than conversed, Jacob was creative, artsy, and senistive, talkative, God dealt with each according to their bend.

God chose Esau as a vessel of dishonor for His purpose, this in no way is indicative of Esau's final end. God's severity and His love is loving and merciful, as a parent's love and severity is for the best of their children.

Is God Free to Not Chose to Love and Save All...?
 

I can remember my late pastor father, explaining that the word

hate did not always mean to hate as we think of it. But it means

to love less. I know God is no respector of persons because His

Word tells us so. That prodigal son's father loved that boy and

grieved over the temporary loss of his son. I believe he believed

he would see his son again because while the son was yet a great

way off, his father saw him, and had compassion, and ran, and fell

on his neck, and kissed him. Now where was the father, that when

his son was yet a great (long) way off, he SAW him. Because he was

out looking for him, that's why!! Jesus was looking for you and me when

He came to this earh in flesh. He left the "Father's House" The throne

of heaven, took off His Kingly robes and came looking for that one lost

sheep. Have you ever wondered why one tribe was missing in Revelation.

The tribe of Dan (Jacob's son by Bilhah, Rachel's handmaiden) Rachel,

like Jacob's grandmother, Sarah, couldn't wait on God to give her children,

she had to help Him out with the situation. It never pays to get ahead of

God. (Father always knows best. He gives His best to those who love Him

and wait for Him. His Will, His Promise, His Way. They that wait upon the

LORD SHALL renew their strength, they shall mount up with wings as

eagles. They shall run and not be weary. They shall walk and not faint.

Jesus gave the example of two men who owed a creditor. One owed a

little and the other a whole lot. The creditor forgave both their debts.

Jesus asked, Who would love Him most. And Simon said, I suppose he

whom He forgave the most. Jesus told Simon he had judged right.

How much do you feel He has forgiven you (I'm not speaking of any

particular person). Do we feel He hasn't had to forgive us much as we

haven't been very bad!!! That what that self-righteous pharisee thought,

Lord, I am SOOOOOO glad that I am not like that publican. I pay my dues,

and I, I, I,, me, me, me!!!!! The publican beat on his breast and with head

bowed low, LORD, I am not even worthy..! I'm a sinner! Have mercy!! That

was his attitude!

If we feel we haven't much to be forgiven, just wait!!! We're not home

yet. And who wants to stay home and have the spirit of the elder brother!!!

Just some serious, sincere thoughts from a senior sister,

Falla39

Well, said Falla.

From my experience as a father, I think maybe "to love differently" might be a more clear understanding. I have had to grow personally to love my children according to their "shaping and bend", they are all different and had I not grown (and continue to do so) I would have alienated rather than matured in relationship. God as our Heavenly Father know exactly how to reach, love and guide each of His children, and He never ever gives up, nor overly forces.

Is God Free to Not Chose to Love and Save All...?
 

Dear Bro. Chan,

Are you a father? Do you have children? If not I can understand

why you would not relate to the 'love of a father toward his son".

And there are those who cannot relate to a loving father because

their earthly father was not a good example of a loving father. My

heart goes out to those who have not had a loving father and mother

here on earth. But to whom much is given shall much be required. In

other words, we are our brother's or sister's keeper. We must keep

them (as brothers and sisters) from being so overcome that they will

despair! Paul could have no doubt become overwhelmed with grief from

his past of having persecuted and consenting to some of their death.

Imagine the impact it had on a young man named Saul of Tarsus, as he

stood nearby, watching as Stephen was being stoned, before his eyes.

After he was transformed by the Light (Jesus), I am sure he felt he owed

a debt he could not pay, but Jesus had already paid a debt HE did not

owe!! Paul no doubt would possibly have become overcome by his past

had not it have been for the physican, Luke and his friend and counselor,

Barnabas, son of consolation! Barbabas consoled Paul as his friend.


I wonder have I done my best for JESUS,
who died upon the cruel tree.
To think of His great sacrifice at Calvary,
I know my Lord expects the best from me.

How many are the lost that I have lifted,
How many are the souls I've helped to free,
I wonder have I done my best for JESUS.
When He has done so much for me.

Blessings,

Falla39

I will say that it is certainly more a "just recompense of reward", is God just?

You are right, Rhoni. If we are "evil" in comparison to God, then God's love and mercy is greater than ours.

well, ive been trying to get the crak to splain us the "straight and narrow path that leads to eternal life"

and now he has. thank you (you are a he arent you?)

I call your attention to Romans 9:12-14, "It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger. As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated. What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid." Note that GOD SAID "Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated" (see also Malachi 1:2-4). Your post is an attempt to argue against what GOD SAID. You cannot deny what GOD SAID unless you are a traitor to God's kingdom.

Then, there are the things Solomon said that God hates "These six things doth the LORD hate: yea, seven are an abomination unto him: A proud look, a lying tongue, and hands that shed innocent blood, An heart that deviseth wicked imaginations, feet that be swift in running to mischief, A false witness that speaketh lies, and he that soweth discord among brethren." So, let's see. God hates the proud, the liars, the murderers, people who devise wicked things, people who are quick to run to mischief, false witnesses, and those who sow discord among the brethren.

God said through the prophet Jeremiah, "Mine heritage is unto me as a lion in the forest; it crieth out against me: therefore have I hated it."

There was NOTHING in what I posted that would REASONABLY lead to your conclusion that I don't "relate to the 'love of a father toward his son'" and I really don't see why you insisted on posting what you posted. If you're thinking that my post was in response to the one before it, know that if I had been responding to that post then I would have quoted it.

Of course, this notion that "Oh, God loves everybody" is a false doctrine that comes from the very pit of Hell (not the city in Michigan). Humans are born ENEMIES of God. We are all born dead in trespasses and sins. There is nothing within any of us to cause God to love us. That God loves even one human being is solely out of the kindness of His own heart. Again, it was GOD who said HE hated Esau. For a time, GOD hated the nation of Israel. God hates the proud, the liars, the murderers, people who devise wicked things, people who are quick to run to mischief, false witnesses, and those who sow discord among the brethren.

How many people have been sent to the lake of fire through this kind of vile, effeminate, "God loves everybody" preaching going on in so many chruches today?

Given that God specifically said there were those He hated, John 3:16 clearly does not mean that God loves every human being that was ever born; so, it can only mean that God's love is extended only to certain people, i.e. His elect - the "whosoever believeth."

Well, it only matters how the BIBLE uses the word. No, hate in the Bible does not mean to love less and you are espousing a vile doctrine from the very pit of Hell (not the city in Michigan) - a kind of mushy, "God loves everybody, there is no sin, God is not angry with the wicked" false gospel common in so many churches today.

The Greek word used in the passage I referred to has the following meanings and ONLY the following meanings:

1. to hate, pursue with hatred, detest
2. to be hated, detested

Again, it was GOD who said "Jacob have I loved, but Esau I hated." You CANNOT get around that. There are various kinds of people that God hates, some of them listed in Proverbs. There was a period where God, through the prophet Jeremiah, said He hated Israel (His heritage).

I take it to mean exactly what it says. The Greek word translated hated means:

1. to hate, pursue with hatred, detest
2. to be hated, detested

There are other places in scripture where it says God hates specific kinds of people. In the same way, certain behaviors are considered "abominations," things that are detestable or disgusting. The Hebrew word used in the Old Testament where it says God hated Esau and hates certain kinds of people has the following meanings:

to hate, be hateful

1. (Qal) to hate
   1. of man
   2. of God
   3. hater, one hating, enemy (participle) (subst)
2. (Niphal) to be hated
3. (Piel) hater (participle)
   1. of persons, nations, God, wisdom

You really can't get around the fact that certain specific words were used and that these words have specific meanings.

Yes, I am a he.

Chan,
You have to defy the very essence and nature of God to define Him in the way you define Him in this post.

Your testimony clearly states: God does not WILL the salvation of all His creation. This view denies that God is all loving and merciful, that He would allow any human being to be born without any opportunity for anything except "endless torment", that my friend is the biggest LIE ever perpetrated on humanity. Calvin and Augustine both, the originators of this doctrine were murderers themselves. So I am not surprised that they would embrace such a damnable doctrine.

God can hate evil and still have mercy on every human, he simply will pursue them until they willingly embrace His provision. I have hated every rebellious act of my children, but I never ever stopped pursuing their best, and neither will the Creator of heaven and earth.

Is God Free to Not Chose to Love and Save All...?
 

Dear Bro. Chan,

Brother, I had no intention whatsoever of offending you in either of my

last two posts. I didn't mean to say anything that would cause you to

think I was sowing seeds of discord or any of the other things God hates.

I was posting with the thought that you cannot, or I cannot totally relate

to something you have not been a part of. I cannot relate to being a

man. You could never relate to having birthing a child as God didn't assign

you that role. He didn't assign me the role of being a father. I, as a parent,

mother, specifally, can relate in that role!!

Forgive me, dear Brother, if you are offended!! You sound offended and

it seems you are angry! It was NOT my intention to offend or upset you

in any way!!! I love you, Brother. You are my Brother, if so be that the

Spirit of God dwells in you!!

Blessings,

Falla39

Of course God hates evil, because it is in such contrast to His holiness. But He also loves His creation, and to say Jesus did not die for the sins of the whole world is of the worst heresy. I hate evil but there is not one human being that I know of that I believe deserves billions and billions of years of endless torment without any hope of rehabilitation. The doctrine of eternal damnation without any hope of every being redeemed is the source of more evil and wickedness than we can imagine. The wars that we are witnessing around the globe today are rooted in this ungodly, manmade doctrince that is the root of almost every religion in the world. Where is the good news, what is the gospel??? Your gospel has primarily horrible news, except for a few elite it is the worst possible news.

Does God have the power to save and redeem His creation?

Does God Will to save all His creation?

Or like Calvin and Chan believes, does God HATE the vast majority of HIS creation?

Nothing I said "clearly states: God does not WILL the salvation of all His creation." Try reading the words instead of trying to read between the lines. God is loving and merciful toward His elect. God commands ALL humans to repent (thus giving everyone the opportunity to be saved). What you're MISSING, though, is that NO HUMAN ON HIS OWN WILL EVER WANT TO BE SAVED. Why? Because every human is born dead in trespasses and sin and is born a slave to sin and an enemy of God. It is the human's nature to sin. To repent of his sins is to go against his very nature. Thus, in order for anyone to be saved, God must interfere with a person's will and change that person's will. God doesn't choose to interfere with every human's will but, instead, simply allows the vast majority of humans to go where their own sinful nature takes them, even though He still commands them to repent.

However, in a certain sense, it's true that God does not WILL the salvation of every human being because if He willed it then it would happen. Why? Because God said that He would accomplish all His purpose. When Peter said that God was not WILLING that any should perish, Peter was referring only to the "us" earlier in the passage.

God does not deny salvation to anyone who WANTS it. However, the only ones who WANT it are the elect - those with whose wills God specifically interferes and causes to want salvation. Jesus said that NO ONE can come to Him unless the Father draws him. Now, you must say: 1) that there are those whom God does not draw; 2) that God's ability to draw is weak and ineffectual since not everyone is drawn to Him; or 3) everyone is going to be drawn to Him in the end, even if some of them are drawn after their physical bodies die.

Jesus said that all those whom the Father gave to Him WILL come to Him. This is absolute; so, either there are those whom the Father did not give to Jesus (since there are those who will not come to Jesus) or everyone is going to be saved in the end (the universal salvation heresy).

God is NOT the father of all of humanity. He is only figuratively the father of Adam and Eve (because He directly created them), figuratively the father of the angels (for the same reason He is figuratively the father of Adam and Eve), literally the father of the man Christ Jesus, and by adoption the father of Christians. Your attempt to apply God's fatherhood to the whole of humanity makes humanity out to be in no eternal danger, makes the separation from God that we're all born in meaningless, and denies the truth of scripture regarding the wicked.

Easy.

He is God.

He made the rules.

We obey the rules or pay the consequences.

He gave you and I and everyone else a free will to choose.

We in essence send our selves to where we go.

We can choose to go to church or we can choose to go to the bar. Where we go is OUR choice, not His.

No, you misunderstood. I was merely citing passages where God is said to hate certain kinds of people. I wasn't saying that YOU were any of those things. What I do find offensive (and what makes me angry) is the false gospel of "Oh, God just loves everybody, is not angry with the wicked, won't punish the wicked," etc. that is being preached in so many churches today (your previous post seemed to communicate that kind of gospel). The psalmist said that God is angry with the wicked every day.

What makes God's grace grace and what makes His mercy mercy is the fact that without these humanity is utterly without any hope. A person cannot see the grace and mercy of God if he cannot see his utterly lost and hopeless state. The kind of "God loves everybody" false gospel being preached today removes the very reality of the lake of fire and utter separation from God.

Sister,
What your post misses is that we were all born and shapen in inquity, estranged from God without hope in the world. The world is fallen and there is none that seeks after God. Chan is correct, that it is only the mercy of God that CAUSES anyone to repent. Fortunely, he is not a respector of persons and will pursue each and everyone of us until we "see" His salvation.

Again, in your last sentence you are mistaken, "we would go no where, except that God gave us the 'desire and will' to do so. Our freewill is very, very limited within the boundaries of where God placed us in the earth.

Your doctrine is convoluted, God hates all this stuff yet he will go ahead and save a few of those that He hates. So he really is a respecter of persons, he favors some over others, so He is partial and unfair. You may say He is God so He can do anything He chooses. Well, he will choose to do that which is consistent with His character.

The whole of Romans chapter 9 speaks to the question you raise.




His ways are higher then our ways. God is sovereign and can do what He will.

So it would appear that we must answer the question as to what we are doing with the vessel God formed us in. If you know the truth, it will set you free.
As for me:
I must obey what I know to be true in the Word. I must repent of my sins, I must be baptized in the name/authority/power of Jesus Christ for the remission of my sins, and I shall receive the Gift of the Holy Ghost which will guide me into all truth. I must respond to His leading, I must resist the will of the flesh and answer to the will of the Spirit.

If you believe God is bound to his word. Then what he has stated from before the foundation of the World. He can't and will not change.

We sometimes what to think, "If we were God, What would we do?"

It does not work that way. We are not God......

I do not believe Paul was saying that he wished himself to suffer eternal damnation for his brethen. Further, no where in Romans 9 is he speaking of folks being in danger of endless torment, nor does it teach that only a few elect will be saved. Yes, God chose Jacob as a vessel of honor and Esau as a vessel of dishonor, He has mercy on whomever He wills, hardens the hearts of whomever He wills. This verses must be interpreted in their context in Romans. These verses speak of folks physical lives and in no way are projecting their final end. Romans 5.18, Clearly tells us, just as "one man's trespass led to condemnation for all, so one Man's act of righteousness leads to justification and life for all. Romans 11.32 tells why God allows evil, "imprisoned all in disobedience so that He may be merciful to all."

What you say here I do not disagree with, however men are notorious for misinterpreting God's intent.

Just because something has been understood, by the powers that be, a certain way does not necessarily mean it is the correct understanding. Most of the traditional views are views that were imposed by the Roman sword.

There have been many believers in Universal Reconciliation down thru history, but the prevailing view is the view that God will destroy or torment the vast majority of His creation endlessly.

The view that God will ultimately reign victorious over all evil is pervasive throughout scripture. So which interpretation will you embrace?

I choose to read and interpret that God will do what He said Jesus came to do, "seek and to save that which is lost". I choose to believe scripture teaches that God's mercy and His severity is His love at work to finally bring all persons to right relationship with Himself and with each other. I believe this view is much more in line with God's word, than the traditional view.

When ever I read this thread title, I am reminded of the words of the song...

God could have chosen to never love again...

I agree. My comments were around the idea that God would save
all no matter the sinful condition they may stay in....

Not really, you???:winkgrin

I have been posting what I think about this subject, just wondering if you had any input?