Free will versus reality!
 

Just kidding, I just wanted to get everyone's attention.

I want to read everyone's comments on the topic... Do you believe in free will? Do you believe in a limited free will? Do you Believe in something besides free will and Predestination? Do you believe in predestination?

Re: Free will versus reality!
 

We have been predestined to have a free will! God will bless our efforts but not force them!

Re: Free will versus reality!
 

Can you expound?

Re: Free will versus reality!
 

We have no choice but to have a free will! God has forced us to have a choice!

Re: Free will versus reality!
 

Is this the only opinion out there? :whistle

Re: Free will versus reality!
 

No one has a totally free will. The Devils will is stronger than mens. Gods will is greater than the devils. Mans is weakest of all. I think we have a limited amount of free will.

The elect were chosen for salvation before the world was. They will come to Christ and be saved. Yet I believe they have enough free will they could possibly despise the grace of God and still be lost.

All told mans free will is overated. Think about Paul. Did he have a free will ? Or did Yeshua knock him off his horse and blind him to force him to believe?

Re: Free will versus reality!
 

clgust.,

I've been curious and meaning to ask you, what faith are you?
what type of church do you attend ( if any) ?

Re: Free will versus reality!
 

Ok, so I'm laughing. This is hard to say without looking really funny. Let's try again.

Paul=passionately pursuing a relationship with Yahveh.

Paul=therefore opposed to anything that he felt was against the law of Yahveh.

Yeshua=Yahveh.

Yahveh made sure Paul got this....in quite proper, spectacular, and uncertain terms.

Paul still had free will. But why would he turn away from Yahveh, his God, whom he passionately loved and served? He could have still turned away from Yeshua, but it would have meant turning away from Yahveh.

That's better. :) There were too many Yahveh's and Yeshua's the other way...it was a tongue twister.

Re: Free will versus reality!
 

The point would be Yeshua appeared to Paul so he might believe. He called him to believe. No one can be saved unless they are drawn by the Father. If its true our will is free how is it they cannot come to Yeshua unless he draws them? Why couldnt one simply WILL to be saved?

Because salvation is NOT by the will of man but of the will of God.

12: But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
13: Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God. John 1:12-13

No one can will to be saved. It must be given to them.

16: So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.
Romans 9:16

Re: Free will versus reality!
 

But using Paul's experience as evidence doesn't work. His choice had already been made to follow God. A misunderstanding corrected is not the same thing as a person thrown off their horse who has had no previous relationship with God.

As for the actual topic at hand... I think I know where I stand on that, but I don't have specific scriptures to provide. I've never really thought about it before.

Re: Free will versus reality!
 

I am fully apostolic pentecostal... UPC (I guess that means some would argue the first part then).

Just because I am a little different in my beliefs doesn't mean the fundamentals aren't the same. I just think too many people shove off the science because it gets complicated when many get the boot too soon, like evolution and (conditioning).

Re: Free will versus reality!
 

At my assembly I'm known as the 100% Arminian... Yep, a true Arminian here, no Calvinistic bone or inkling in me, not no way, not no how. I believe GOD works things out according to HIS will, but that EVERY person has, at least for some point, and for some time, the will and the ability to get right with GOD. Pharoah's heart was hardened, but before then, he still had a measure of faith like the rest of us, and could have sought the LORD. After years of disobedience, then GOD hardened his heart, just as HE did to others who had become so reprobate after time of following their own ways.

-Bro. Alex

Re: Free will versus reality!
 

And where does your own mind play?

This thread was not meant to be a Calvinism versus Arminianism. I think there are varying views on this site of the nature God plays, so for those that are Arminian, aside from the autonomy from the will of God, how much free will do you think you have from psychological conditioning?

This question is obviously not directed at Calvinists, so if you are please try to refrain from distracting from the essence of the question.

Re: Free will versus reality!
 

The Church (Bride) is predestined but people are not. We all have 100% free will.

This walk is one of faith.. not logic.

Re: Free will versus reality!
 

I believe salvation is all God, but how much we work out the salvation is us.

Re: Free will versus reality!
 

It's either all God, or it's not.

Re: Free will versus reality!
 

Please define precisely what you mean by "free will".

Re: Free will versus reality!
 

Please use this as the main question....

Re: Free will versus reality!
 

The Remonstration continues! Glory, Hallelujah!

Re: Free will versus reality!
 

Oh, there you go again, being logical! :toofunny

Re: Free will versus reality!
 

I know this is off topic, but this definitely peeks my curiousity..
Does this mean you don't believe in the Book of Genesis,
The story of Eden ? and how do you explain the creation man?
you have to not fully believe in the infallability of scriptures to
believe in evolution. If you've already explained it and don't feel
like doing so again, just direct me to a thread where you've
already exausted the topic

Re: Free will versus reality!
 

Well you know..it's my greatest weakness.

:tic

Re: Free will versus reality!
 

I believe in the creation story in Genesis, I believe in a literal Garden of Eden, I believe in a very, very hands on literal creation of man by God.

I definitely believe in micro-evolution (really, how can a person not...?) and the theory of macro-evolution is intriguing. I'm not sure science has it all quite right, but I do think the evidence is quite compelling on some points.

I believe that the Bible never states how long creation took. The word used is the word for a time. It's used for a day, so maybe it literally means that. But it's also used for any period of time. So maybe it doesn't.

Re: Free will versus reality!
 

Can you explain what you mean by the bolded please? I don't see how the two are connected in any way.

Re: Free will versus reality!
 

Re: Free will versus reality!
 

I believe it all depends on perspective. Both are true. From man's perspective we have free will and make choices and live with the results of those choices. However, from God's all knowing perspective God already knew all choices made, permitted all things to take place, and knows the end from the beginning.

Re: Free will versus reality!
 

First, about creationism vs. evolution... One day equaling millions or billions of years brings death before sin, because you MUST have some organisms dying before Adam's formation and his and Eve's sin in the Garden.

Also, as for psychological conditioning, well, that's not really a theological question your asking about free will. I mean, I can't be a Ulmitrite, because I don't know what an Ulmitrite is, I've never met one, they don't have a website, and they are only located in New Zealand as a small group of 75 people (but of course I don't know that). So my free will doesn't tell me to be or not to be an Ulmitrite, I just don't know either way... maybe they have more Truth than apostolics, I don't know- I highly doubt it. Also, as for my own free will, I am bound in certain areas physical that I can do nothing about, due to my stature of just shy of 5'4"- all my free will is not going to make me a basketball player like Michael Jordan. If that's where your wanting to go with free will, I think it's pretty simple. We are where we are, with the backgrounds we have, the biological makeup that makes us what we are, and well that's just it...

-Bro. Alex

Re: Free will versus reality!
 

Interesting idea. And I'm going to sound ignorant here...but I haven't studied this lately. Is there scriptural evidence that there was no death before the fall? My mind is vaguely remembering there might be something, but not remembering enough to go looking for it.

And, how would a day being longer than a day necessarily equal death happening before the fall? I'm not sure I follow..

Re: Free will versus reality!
 

Psychological conditioning not a theological question... you lost me when you started talking about evolution instead of free will... :snapout

Re: Free will versus reality!
 

You want this to be the original question, but I don't follow it at all once you start throwing in big words. :tease

Seriously, state your question w/o the doctrinal or theological stuff in there. I don't feel like looking it all up to figure out if I can even answer this.

Is the bolded what your actual question is? And, if so, can you clarify please?

Re: Free will versus reality!
 

I don't have any doctrinal slant in there....

Re: Free will versus reality!
 

I don't believe in Calvinism,but I believe in the predeterminate counsel of God.
There is more to this subject than what most people admit or comprehend.
God does know the end from the beginning yet people have to choose to serve him,yet people can't come to God unless His Spirit draws them.
The mercy of God has depths beyond human comprehension.

Re: Free will versus reality!
 

Ok, so restate the question without the calvin thing and the arm...thing. I don't know what any of that is, I do know enough to know I really don't care enough to go find out. lol

What is your actual question?

Re: Free will versus reality!
 

If you do believe in predestination please don't partake in this discussion,

If you don't then please explain where the mind and psychological conditioning plays a roll in your behavior.

Re: Free will versus reality!
 

Through election God's purpose might stand.Why did God say Jacob whom I loved but Esau whom I hated I don't know ? to try to figure that out is speculation.
But The Lord says I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy and I will compassion on whom I have compassion.I thank God that He shows himself merciful.
The Bible also says whosever will let Him come,so whoever He draws can come to Him.

Re: Free will versus reality!
 

Sin brought death. If you have a universe that's 4.6 billion years old, and dinosaurs died 65 million years ago, before man came upon the face of this world 200,000 years ago, then you have death taking place before Adam's sin. All these big numbers are taken from the evolutionist's theory of course, I believe the world is around 6,000 years old.

-Bro. Alex

Re: Free will versus reality!
 

If the world is 6000 years old, then God played a really funny joke on us by making it look billions of years old.

Re: Free will versus reality!
 

I believe in man has a free will, as apparently so did the angels, hence 1/3 fell because of their choice.

I believe in creation not evolution.

I believe man has no idea how old the earth is, only speculations.

Re: Free will versus reality!
 

Can we not talk about evolution in this thread :club start a new thread instead of hijacking. BTW you are making ridiculous assumptions in your post that deserve some attention in a new thread, but I am not willing to start a new one and go down that road again, so you do it.

Re: Free will versus reality!
 

Fair enough... So what is the question your wanting to ask? If your wanting a 100% pure Arminian answer- I'm your man! If you want to go in psychological rabbit trails, try Freud's Interpretation of Dreams...

-Bro. Alex